NBA Playoffs

[Dogdeacon]

I'll put Markkanen in with Tatum and Smith Jr. He put up good numbers on a tanking Bulls team. He's got a better paint game offensively than he showed in college and his defense is good.

I agree he's good that's why I gave him his earned nickname, though I don't think he's currently in or getting in conversation for best player from this draft. If you redraft today just by performance it probably goes:
1. Mitchell, 2. Tatum, 3. Smith Jr. ,(a dropoff) 4. Kuzma 5. Markkanen

 

[champs99and04]

He plays so hard he gets a pass from a lot of folks. It'd be maddening to have him on your team; I can't imagine how frustrating these games must be for OKC fans.

Melo isn't much better. In his last 25 playoff games he's shooting 40% from the floor and 28% from three.

Melo has been a disaster. He has to be the worst player in the league getting 30+ minutes.

 

[intlzncster]

People will always put a varying degree of weight on this but I can't look past the fact that the East has been a trainwreck for 95% of LeBron's career. Getting to the Finals hasn't exactly been a gargantuan task. I forget the stat from a few years ago but I believe LeBron has only defeated seven 50-win teams in the Eastern Conference playoffs in his career. MJ defeated 14 in the East; they've both been to the postseason 13 times.

This is an underrated and accurate narrative. Doesn't mean LeBron's not great, but adds important context to the discussion.

 

[intlzncster]

Conclusion: Understanding the draft is a gambit, Fans can still fairly evaluate their teams draft based on how the player plays! Just because a guy wasn't projected to be picked higher or lower doesn't acquit a team from not evaluating him properly.

Even then, it doesn't necessarily tell the story. Danny Ainge absolutely nailed the Jalen Brown pick--was damn near universally panned for it. Jalen was nothing much to look at but raw clay in college. Kid looks like a stud, and he's still got tons of upside He's only 21 years old.

For the record, I thought the pick was garbage.

 

[champs99and04]

This is an underrated and accurate narrative. Doesn't mean LeBron's not great, but adds important context to the discussion.

You guys think it's an underrated narrative that the East has been trash?? If by that you mean beaten to death, sure.

For the record, I agree that it should be considered. However, it should also be considered when talking about LeBron's finals record.

 

[Rocktheworld]

This is an underrated and accurate narrative. Doesn't mean LeBron's not great, but adds important context to the discussion.

Honestly I don’t really care much about how bad the East has been when the figure reaches 7+ CONSECUTIVE finals. The physical and mental wear of 7+ consecutive 100+ game seasons, with the minutes LeBron has played across those seasons, must be insane.

And putting aside his production in the Finals, when speaking to his record about which most people care most, I don’t think (again besides Mavs) that if you plug MJ in for LBJ that they take down those Spurs and Warriors teams. LBJ has played better teams in the Finals or was at least out-matched across his career to a greater degree than MJ and I don’t think that’s very debatable.

 

[superjohn]

Honestly I don’t really care much about how bad the East has been when the figure reaches 7+ CONSECUTIVE finals. The physical and mental wear of 7+ consecutive 100+ game seasons, with the minutes LeBron has played across those seasons, must be insane.

And putting aside his production in the Finals, when speaking to his record in which most people care about, I don’t think (again besides Mavs) that if you plug MJ in for LBJ that the Heat or Cavs win any of those lost Finals. LBJ has played better teams in the Finals or was at least out-matched across his career to a greater degree than MJ and I don’t think that’s very debatable.

Imagine Jordan played in the same East Lebron played in, we're talking what 12-14 straight finals. Imagine Jordan's dad was never murdered and Jordan never went to play baseball, imagine Jordan didn't retire so early. A lot of what ifs but Jordan certainly would have had more titles had he not left to play baseball and retired early.

 

[intlzncster]

Honestly I don’t really care much about how bad the East has been when the figure reaches 7+ CONSECUTIVE finals. The physical and mental wear of 7+ consecutive 100+ game seasons, with the minutes LeBron has played across those seasons, must be insane.

And putting aside his production in the Finals, when speaking to his record about which most people care most, I don’t think (again besides Mavs) that if you plug MJ in for LBJ that they take down those Spurs and Warriors teams. LBJ has played better teams in the Finals or was at least out-matched across his career to a greater degree than MJ and I don’t think that’s very debatable.

The relative level of competition has to matter. If you are playing nobodies, then beating them should be expected.

The 7 years of 100+ games thing is very impressive, no doubt. Wasn't trying to take away from that. But it's not like the teams he was on were always junk. He was on a couple bad teams, but the overall talent on his team was usually better than the rest of the East. I mean, Wade/Bosch/LeBron was a shoe-in for the Finals.

Jordan went to six straight (that he played in). If he hadn't had his hiatus, maybe he goes to eight straight. Why knows? It's a what if.

Not sure the plugin argument holds much water, as the game was totally different. The 3pt shot wasn't as important, and consequently, MJ didn't develop it like he probably would have otherwise. Along a bunch of other examples. Really is two distinct eras.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yeah and Roberson's absence has no impact on their offensive woes.

Seriously while he is surely missed on D, it’s not like OKC are giving up 120+ per night. Their offense has been relatively poor. After the game 1 win, they’re averaging under 100 ppg this series. From games 1-4, the assist totals went from 17 to 22 to 16 to 10 (Russ becoming more desperate and doing more hero ball). The ball movement has been awful.

While it doesn’t help that they’re letting a rookie undress them like this, their struggles on offense are too significant to ignore.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Imagine Jordan played in the same East Lebron played in, we're talking what 12-14 straight finals. Imagine Jordan's dad was never murdered and Jordan never went to play baseball, imagine Jordan didn't retire so early. A lot of what ifs but Jordan certainly would have had more titles had he not left to play baseball and retired early.

And he’s nowhere close to undefeated in the Finals if he played the teams LeBron has played.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Even then, it doesn't necessarily tell the story. Danny Ainge absolutely nailed the Jalen Brown pick--was damn near universally panned for it. Jalen was nothing much to look at but raw clay in college. Kid looks like a stud, and he's still got tons of upside He's only 21 years old.

For the record, I thought the pick was garbage.

Yes, that's an additional part of the Celtics and actually Knicks story to return to original point. Ainge has built up history of excellent GM moves and mostly good draft moves so when he makes a trade as a Celtics fan I put more stock in that (trust in Belichick-esque)than what I've heard in media. And in contrast the Knicks have a history of garbage moves & draft picks so its fair to beat them up for taking FrankieSmokes over Smith Jr, Monk, Bam Adebayo, Kuzma, heck even Luke Kennard!

 

[Rocktheworld]

The relative level of competition has to matter. If you are playing nobodies, then beating them should be expected.

The 7 years of 100+ games thing is very impressive, no doubt. Wasn't trying to take away from that. But it's not like the teams he was on were always junk. He was on a couple bad teams, but the overall talent on his team was usually better than the rest of the East. I mean, Wade/Bosch/LeBron was a shoe-in for the Finals.

Jordan went to six straight (that he played in). If he hadn't had his hiatus, maybe he goes to eight straight. Why knows? It's a what if.

For all we know, the grind of getting to consecutive finals could have played a significant role in him retiring. Kobe and Shaq, Kareem and Magic, the Warriors won’t have an easy time, no team yet besides one with LeBron has made 4 consecutive. Another part of LBJs feat is that these 7 consecutive finals have been on three distinct teams, all of which he joined and started from scratch (unlike KD jumping in to a well-established Warriors team and system).

Not sure the plugin argument holds much water, as the game was totally different. The 3pt shot wasn't as important, and consequently, MJ didn't develop it like he probably would have otherwise. Along a bunch of other examples. Really is two distinct eras.

Sure, after all LeBron never had a HOF (or even above-average) coach. Never had Phil, and I think we over-look MJ’s college experience; he was also coached by Dean Smith.

As far as learning the game, going straight from high school to end NBA, then learning to win and be a champion, LeBron has had no help or mentorship except arguably Dwayne Wade and maybe Pat Riley from a distance.

 

[intlzncster]

Sure, after all LeBron never had a HOF (or even above-average) coach. Never had Phil, and I think we over-look MJ’s college experience; he was also coached by Dean Smith.

You don't think Spoelstra's a good coach? Not saying HOF, but he definitely looks the part to me.

 

[Lefty2one]

It's nearly impossible to do the MJ vs LeBron debate from this perspective. Way, way too many variables.

The best way I can frame it is that MJ never lost a series his team should have won.

LeBron has two: the 2011 Finals and the 2009 ECF. His disappearing act in 2011 is a major blemish on his resume/legacy IMO. At the same time, him defeating a 73-win GSW team for the title is a bigger accomplishment than anything MJ did in a single season (with the big assist to Draymond).

 

[Lefty2one]

You don't think Spoelstra's a good coach? Not saying HOF, but he definitely looks the part to me.

If I had to put money on it I'd say Spo will be in the HOF when it's all said and done. Still only 47 years old. He's been one of the five-ish best coaches in the league for a while now. Two championships. He got this year's Miami team to overachieve and I think he'll be in Miami for a very long time.

 

[Rocktheworld]

You don't think Spoelstra's a good coach? Not saying HOF, but he definitely looks the part to me.

At the time he coached LBJ? I dunno, I’m not one to have much an opinion on coaching but I don’t think many would say he was any better than average as a coach for that era. Not top 10 at least, right?

But despite where exactly he falls on the coaching hierarchy, if Spoelstra is the best coach you’ve ever had across your basketball career...

 

[Dogdeacon]

At the time he coached LBJ? I dunno, I’m not one to have much an opinion on coaching but I don’t think many would say he was any better than average as a coach for that era.

But despite where exactly he falls on the coaching hierarchy, if Spoelstra is the best coach you’ve ever had across your basketball career...

C'mon - what had Phil done when he started his first coaching gig with the Bulls? A book report on Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Albany Patroons stuff.

Also Blatt was a good coach, unfortunately a dick. But the entire supporting thesis that LeBron is better than Jordan b/c he had inferior coaches is weak sauce.

 

[Rocktheworld]

C'mon - what had Phil done when he started his first coaching gig with the Bulls? A book report on Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Albany Patroons stuff.

Also Blatt was a good coach, unfortunately a dick. But the entire supporting thesis that LeBron is better than Jordan b/c he had inferior coaches is weak sauce.

Coaching is hardly “the entire thesis”. Cmon man.

 

[superjohn]

For all we know, the grind of getting to consecutive finals could have played a significant role in him retiring. Kobe and Shaq, Kareem and Magic, the Warriors won’t have an easy time, no team yet besides one with LeBron has made 4 consecutive. Another part of LBJs feat is that these 7 consecutive finals have been on three distinct teams, all of which he joined and started from scratch (unlike KD jumping in to a well-established Warriors team and system).


Sure, after all LeBron never had a HOF (or even above-average) coach. Never had Phil, and I think we over-look MJ’s college experience; he was also coached by Dean Smith.

As far as learning the game, going straight from high school to end NBA, then learning to win and be a champion, LeBron has had no help or mentorship except arguably Dwayne Wade and maybe Pat Riley from a distance.

Lebron started the Heat from scratch? Wow, that must be news to Dwyane Wade. That dominant finals that resulted in an NBA title and finals MVP must have never really happened.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Lebron started the Heat from scratch? Wow, that must be news to Dwyane Wade. That dominant finals that resulted in an NBA title and finals MVP must have never really happened.

In the sense that it was a fairly new team with he and Bosch coming in. That championship chemistry was essentially built from scratch.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Coaching is hardly “the entire thesis”. Cmon man.

You can't use quotes and then misquote me!? I said "entire supporting thesis".

Nevertheless allow me to rephrase as perhaps 'entire' and 'thesis' have larger connotations:
Your entire flawed thesis (meat) that LeBron is better than MJ is undermined by the weak supporting sauce argument that LeBron had a wee tough time due to coaching. Better

 

[Rocktheworld]

You can't use quotes and then misquote me!? I said "entire supporting thesis".

Nevertheless allow me to rephrase as perhaps 'entire' and 'thesis' have larger connotations:
Your entire flawed thesis (meat) that LeBron is better than MJ is undermined by the weak supporting sauce argument that LeBron had a wee tough time due to coaching. Better

Honestly “supporting thesis” a little redundant in the first place. You have supporting arguments to defend a thesis.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Honestly “supporting thesis” a little redundant in the first place. You have supporting arguments to defend a thesis.

Now this time you did quote me but without crediting. In fact I wrote "weak sauce supporting arguments" (hmm, maybe where you got your English lesson from?) so I'd already said this except with an attempt at humor. Do you want to acknowledge that Phil Jackson and Spoelstra had the same starting point with their respective superstars? Or do you agree that the coaching tangent was weak & your thesis, arguments, support and rebuttals are lacking, therefore you are only willing to respond to the syntax?

(P.S. taking occasional break from reviewing TX escrows so this is welcome entertainment. I do think LeBron is knocking on the door of MJ's GOAT-ness, but he's needs mo' titles to get in)

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Chris Broussard made an argument a while back that in Jordan’s 6 trips to the finals he faced 9 Hall of Famers, while in LeBron’s trips he’s faced 26. Something to also take into consideration.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Now this time you did quote me but without crediting. In fact I wrote "weak sauce supporting arguments" (hmm, maybe where you got your English lesson from?) so I'd already said this except with an attempt at humor. Do you want to acknowledge that Phil Jackson and Spoelstra had the same starting point with their respective superstars?

Sure that’s a fine counter, that coaching acumen at the time of coaching their star(s) are not far off one another. But we all now know the basketball mind Jackson clearly had. Remains to be seen what Spoelstra can do if/when he gets another good set of talent like Phil did in LA.

Or do you agree that the coaching tangent was weak & your thesis, arguments, support and rebuttals are lacking, therefore you are only willing to respond to the syntax?

Not a tangent.

And since you used the word “thesis” I thought you were errantly attributing my grander argument to a single underlying factor (coaching) which I felt I should correct. Guess there was just a disconnect on semantics (not syntax).

(P.S. taking occasional break from reviewing TX escrows so this is welcome entertainment. I do think LeBron is knocking on the door of MJ's GOAT-ness, but he's needs mo' titles to get in)

How many more titles? And how many more Finals losses can he incur?

Basically what does his remaining Finals record have to be for him to be the GOAT in your eyes?