NBA Playoffs

[Dogdeacon]

Even then, it doesn't necessarily tell the story. Danny Ainge absolutely nailed the Jalen Brown pick--was damn near universally panned for it. Jalen was nothing much to look at but raw clay in college. Kid looks like a stud, and he's still got tons of upside He's only 21 years old.

For the record, I thought the pick was garbage.

Yes, that's an additional part of the Celtics and actually Knicks story to return to original point. Ainge has built up history of excellent GM moves and mostly good draft moves so when he makes a trade as a Celtics fan I put more stock in that (trust in Belichick-esque)than what I've heard in media. And in contrast the Knicks have a history of garbage moves & draft picks so its fair to beat them up for taking FrankieSmokes over Smith Jr, Monk, Bam Adebayo, Kuzma, heck even Luke Kennard!

 

[Rocktheworld]

The relative level of competition has to matter. If you are playing nobodies, then beating them should be expected.

The 7 years of 100+ games thing is very impressive, no doubt. Wasn't trying to take away from that. But it's not like the teams he was on were always junk. He was on a couple bad teams, but the overall talent on his team was usually better than the rest of the East. I mean, Wade/Bosch/LeBron was a shoe-in for the Finals.

Jordan went to six straight (that he played in). If he hadn't had his hiatus, maybe he goes to eight straight. Why knows? It's a what if.

For all we know, the grind of getting to consecutive finals could have played a significant role in him retiring. Kobe and Shaq, Kareem and Magic, the Warriors won’t have an easy time, no team yet besides one with LeBron has made 4 consecutive. Another part of LBJs feat is that these 7 consecutive finals have been on three distinct teams, all of which he joined and started from scratch (unlike KD jumping in to a well-established Warriors team and system).

Not sure the plugin argument holds much water, as the game was totally different. The 3pt shot wasn't as important, and consequently, MJ didn't develop it like he probably would have otherwise. Along a bunch of other examples. Really is two distinct eras.

Sure, after all LeBron never had a HOF (or even above-average) coach. Never had Phil, and I think we over-look MJ’s college experience; he was also coached by Dean Smith.

As far as learning the game, going straight from high school to end NBA, then learning to win and be a champion, LeBron has had no help or mentorship except arguably Dwayne Wade and maybe Pat Riley from a distance.

 

[intlzncster]

Sure, after all LeBron never had a HOF (or even above-average) coach. Never had Phil, and I think we over-look MJ’s college experience; he was also coached by Dean Smith.

You don't think Spoelstra's a good coach? Not saying HOF, but he definitely looks the part to me.

 

[Lefty2one]

It's nearly impossible to do the MJ vs LeBron debate from this perspective. Way, way too many variables.

The best way I can frame it is that MJ never lost a series his team should have won.

LeBron has two: the 2011 Finals and the 2009 ECF. His disappearing act in 2011 is a major blemish on his resume/legacy IMO. At the same time, him defeating a 73-win GSW team for the title is a bigger accomplishment than anything MJ did in a single season (with the big assist to Draymond).

 

[Lefty2one]

You don't think Spoelstra's a good coach? Not saying HOF, but he definitely looks the part to me.

If I had to put money on it I'd say Spo will be in the HOF when it's all said and done. Still only 47 years old. He's been one of the five-ish best coaches in the league for a while now. Two championships. He got this year's Miami team to overachieve and I think he'll be in Miami for a very long time.

 

[Rocktheworld]

You don't think Spoelstra's a good coach? Not saying HOF, but he definitely looks the part to me.

At the time he coached LBJ? I dunno, I’m not one to have much an opinion on coaching but I don’t think many would say he was any better than average as a coach for that era. Not top 10 at least, right?

But despite where exactly he falls on the coaching hierarchy, if Spoelstra is the best coach you’ve ever had across your basketball career...

 

[Dogdeacon]

At the time he coached LBJ? I dunno, I’m not one to have much an opinion on coaching but I don’t think many would say he was any better than average as a coach for that era.

But despite where exactly he falls on the coaching hierarchy, if Spoelstra is the best coach you’ve ever had across your basketball career...

C'mon - what had Phil done when he started his first coaching gig with the Bulls? A book report on Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Albany Patroons stuff.

Also Blatt was a good coach, unfortunately a dick. But the entire supporting thesis that LeBron is better than Jordan b/c he had inferior coaches is weak sauce.

 

[Rocktheworld]

C'mon - what had Phil done when he started his first coaching gig with the Bulls? A book report on Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Albany Patroons stuff.

Also Blatt was a good coach, unfortunately a dick. But the entire supporting thesis that LeBron is better than Jordan b/c he had inferior coaches is weak sauce.

Coaching is hardly “the entire thesis”. Cmon man.

 

[superjohn]

For all we know, the grind of getting to consecutive finals could have played a significant role in him retiring. Kobe and Shaq, Kareem and Magic, the Warriors won’t have an easy time, no team yet besides one with LeBron has made 4 consecutive. Another part of LBJs feat is that these 7 consecutive finals have been on three distinct teams, all of which he joined and started from scratch (unlike KD jumping in to a well-established Warriors team and system).


Sure, after all LeBron never had a HOF (or even above-average) coach. Never had Phil, and I think we over-look MJ’s college experience; he was also coached by Dean Smith.

As far as learning the game, going straight from high school to end NBA, then learning to win and be a champion, LeBron has had no help or mentorship except arguably Dwayne Wade and maybe Pat Riley from a distance.

Lebron started the Heat from scratch? Wow, that must be news to Dwyane Wade. That dominant finals that resulted in an NBA title and finals MVP must have never really happened.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Lebron started the Heat from scratch? Wow, that must be news to Dwyane Wade. That dominant finals that resulted in an NBA title and finals MVP must have never really happened.

In the sense that it was a fairly new team with he and Bosch coming in. That championship chemistry was essentially built from scratch.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Coaching is hardly “the entire thesis”. Cmon man.

You can't use quotes and then misquote me!? I said "entire supporting thesis".

Nevertheless allow me to rephrase as perhaps 'entire' and 'thesis' have larger connotations:
Your entire flawed thesis (meat) that LeBron is better than MJ is undermined by the weak supporting sauce argument that LeBron had a wee tough time due to coaching. Better

 

[Rocktheworld]

You can't use quotes and then misquote me!? I said "entire supporting thesis".

Nevertheless allow me to rephrase as perhaps 'entire' and 'thesis' have larger connotations:
Your entire flawed thesis (meat) that LeBron is better than MJ is undermined by the weak supporting sauce argument that LeBron had a wee tough time due to coaching. Better

Honestly “supporting thesis” a little redundant in the first place. You have supporting arguments to defend a thesis.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Honestly “supporting thesis” a little redundant in the first place. You have supporting arguments to defend a thesis.

Now this time you did quote me but without crediting. In fact I wrote "weak sauce supporting arguments" (hmm, maybe where you got your English lesson from?) so I'd already said this except with an attempt at humor. Do you want to acknowledge that Phil Jackson and Spoelstra had the same starting point with their respective superstars? Or do you agree that the coaching tangent was weak & your thesis, arguments, support and rebuttals are lacking, therefore you are only willing to respond to the syntax?

(P.S. taking occasional break from reviewing TX escrows so this is welcome entertainment. I do think LeBron is knocking on the door of MJ's GOAT-ness, but he's needs mo' titles to get in)

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Chris Broussard made an argument a while back that in Jordan’s 6 trips to the finals he faced 9 Hall of Famers, while in LeBron’s trips he’s faced 26. Something to also take into consideration.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Now this time you did quote me but without crediting. In fact I wrote "weak sauce supporting arguments" (hmm, maybe where you got your English lesson from?) so I'd already said this except with an attempt at humor. Do you want to acknowledge that Phil Jackson and Spoelstra had the same starting point with their respective superstars?

Sure that’s a fine counter, that coaching acumen at the time of coaching their star(s) are not far off one another. But we all now know the basketball mind Jackson clearly had. Remains to be seen what Spoelstra can do if/when he gets another good set of talent like Phil did in LA.

Or do you agree that the coaching tangent was weak & your thesis, arguments, support and rebuttals are lacking, therefore you are only willing to respond to the syntax?

Not a tangent.

And since you used the word “thesis” I thought you were errantly attributing my grander argument to a single underlying factor (coaching) which I felt I should correct. Guess there was just a disconnect on semantics (not syntax).

(P.S. taking occasional break from reviewing TX escrows so this is welcome entertainment. I do think LeBron is knocking on the door of MJ's GOAT-ness, but he's needs mo' titles to get in)

How many more titles? And how many more Finals losses can he incur?

Basically what does his remaining Finals record have to be for him to be the GOAT in your eyes?

 

[traitor71]

Melo has been a disaster. He has to be the worst player in the league getting 30+ minutes.

Biggest move in the NBA this year was the one that didn't happen. When Houston was trying to get Melo before the season and failed to do so, they saved their season without even realizing it.

 

[intlzncster]

How many more titles? And how many more Finals losses can he incur?
Basically what does his remaining Finals record have to be for him to be the GOAT in your eyes?

I suspect this part will end up being moot. I think the one thing he cares about right now is being considered the GOAT. He'll go to a stacked team next year and bang out 2+ titles to further the cause.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I suspect this part will end up being moot. I think the one thing he cares about right now is being considered the GOAT. He'll go to a stacked team next year and bang out 2+ titles to further the cause.

I mean if you’re trying to be the GOAT you can’t join a truly stacked team. As good as KD is and as revered he will be, he permanently removed himself from the GOAT discussion by joining the Warriors.

The only team that I can see LeBron joining that would help him win titles and not take him out of that discussion would be Philly, and that’s only because they are so young. I think just about anywhere else, the team is too stacked or established (Houston, GSW, Minnesota) and/or it would be more work getting them to be Finals than would be worth (LA, NY)

Part of his GOAT narrative if he were to join Philly would be that he made a significant change to his game (as would be necessary to play with Simmons) and brought up those young stars, aging well himself in the process as he becomes a more true small forward. The longevity aspect of his claim to the GOAT would be pretty staggering at that point. He will likely make it to 40/10/10 (in thousands) within the next 5 years wherever his next stop is: assuming he averages 90 games a year for a round number, he would only need to average 20/4/4 across those 5 years to get there by the end of 2023.

 

[MadDogRevival]

. . . the East has been a trainwreck for 95% of LeBron's career. Getting to the Finals hasn't exactly been a gargantuan task.

In fact, it's so easy, nobody else has done it in almost a decade. Lol.
This is the same argument people use against the Patriots. The "easy path" argument.

. I believe LeBron has only defeated seven 50-win teams in the Eastern Conference playoffs in his career. MJ defeated 14 in the East; they've both been to the postseason 13 times.

Yeah, that's a ridiculously oversimplified analysis that's like those new "white reeses" cups.
Try this link, which gives an in-depth review of that exact question. Worth a read for those who are interested in MJ/LBJ comparisons. LINK
Further, I don't think strength of schedule captures the difference. As businesslawyer said, how many times were the bulls underdogs? What stuff teams did MJ bull to the finals?

Really, really disliked James after the decision fiasco. Really respect his game now. Incredible what he has done. Fact that he may end up the top scorer in league history and top 5 assists is absolutely nuts, particularly when you consider that the other guys in the top 10 scoring don't break top 30 in assists. Nuts.
If he pulls that off, he'll have to be considered to have the greatest career - people can argue whether he was the greatest player.
The thing that's really working for him going forward is that it's a 3 point league and the guy has made himself a very respectable 3 point shooter. As his physicality wanes, he an convert his game to a spot up shooter and not rely on crashing the rim so much.
In any event, as a basketball fan, a tremendous joy to watch.

 

[superjohn]

In fact, it's so easy, nobody else has done it in almost a decade. Lol.
This is the same argument people use against the Patriots. The "easy path" argument.

Yeah, that's a ridiculously oversimplified analysis that's like those new "white reeses" cups.
Try this link, which gives an in-depth review of that exact question. Worth a read for those who are interested in MJ/LBJ comparisons. LINK
Further, I don't think strength of schedule captures the difference. As businesslawyer said, how many times were the bulls underdogs? What stuff teams did MJ bull to the finals?

Really, really disliked James after the decision fiasco. Really respect his game now. Incredible what he has done. Fact that he may end up the top scorer in league history and top 5 assists is absolutely nuts, particularly when you consider that the other guys in the top 10 scoring don't break top 30 in assists. Nuts.
If he pulls that off, he'll have to be considered to have the greatest career - people can argue whether he was the greatest player.
The thing that's really working for him going forward is that it's a 3 point league and the guy has made himself a very respectable 3 point shooter. As his physicality wanes, he an convert his game to a spot up shooter and not rely on crashing the rim so much.
In any event, as a basketball fan, a tremendous joy to watch.

You don't think this has been a historically weak era for the East and that the West has had the majority of the top players and teams?

 

[Rocktheworld]

You don't think this has been a historically weak era for the East and that the West has had the majority of the top players and teams?

If LeBron makes it to eight CONSECUTIVE finals across three different teams in the East, how would that compare to him doing it in the West? Say, 4 consecutive times?

What does his current 7 compare to in the West?

 

[Lefty2one]

Try this link, which gives an in-depth review of that exact question. Worth a read for those who are interested in MJ/LBJ comparisons. LINK

First of all, there's no proof there, as the title promises. It's subjective as can be. Also, why does he feel the need to compare their postseasons chronologically? That's irrelevant in this debate. If anything you'd want to rank each player's postseasons by difficulty and then compare those seasons head to head but even that doesn't matter that much. It's about the big picture.

Lastly, we're debating who had a tougher road through the Eastern Conference and the author agrees that Jordan had it more difficult.

Jordan consistently had a tougher time through the first three rounds of the playoffs, which makes sense. There were fewer teams in the NBA during his time, so all of the talent in the Association was more tightly distributed than it is in 2017.

But LeBron undoubtedly went up against better opponents in the Finals because he plays in the age of player movement and superteams.

I've never heard anyone knock LeBron for having it easy once he reached The Finals.

 

[husky429]

I can't see lebron doing well in philly unless simmons changes. Lebrons best asset is his passing at the SF position. Same as Simmons.

What does a coach do with that?

 

[Dogdeacon]

How many more titles? And how many more Finals losses can he incur?
Basically what does his remaining Finals record have to be for him to be the GOAT in your eyes?

Obviously 6 titles is the benchmark, remembering Jordan was MVP each time.
Losing definitely undermines, but maybe an equation of 3-1 wherein assuming LeBron gets back to at or near 50% finals winning percentage each losing visits counts for 1/3. So his 3 wins and 5 losses equates to 3 x 1 + 5 *.33 = 4.67 championships. Another 2 wins especially with MVP and he's got a solid case.

But he if LeBron gets to 3-6 or worse the math changes and the losses hurt his legacy. Bill Russell's 11 titles and unblemished finals record is also in the conversation which makes this extra relevant.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I mean if you’re trying to be the GOAT you can’t join a truly stacked team. As good as KD is and as revered he will be, he permanently removed himself from the GOAT discussion by joining the Warriors.

The only team that I can see LeBron joining that would help him win titles and not take him out of that discussion would be Philly, and that’s only because they are so young. I think just about anywhere else, the team is too stacked or established (Houston, GSW, Minnesota) and/or it would be more work getting them to be Finals than would be worth (LA, NY)

Part of his GOAT narrative if he were to join Philly would be that he made a significant change to his game (as would be necessary to play with Simmons) and brought up those young stars, aging well himself in the process as he becomes a more true small forward. The longevity aspect of his claim to the GOAT would be pretty staggering at that point. He will likely make it to 40/10/10 (in thousands) within the next 5 years wherever his next stop is: assuming he averages 90 games a year for a round number, he would only need to average 20/4/4 across those 5 years to get there by the end of 2023.

A. You are assuming Philly as of right now in their 'haven't won a playoff series yet' state. Assuming they win round 1, favorite in round 2 and have a 50-50 chance in next series, joining them this offseason could be viewed similarly to Durant's move.

B. I think new mercenary Laker squad is his best hope cuz then he can garner some of the team building credit again AND preserve the crucially important argument that he never had a HOF coach

C. If Philly is in the 2018 finals it is directly comparable to KD even without a prior title. Cleveland losing to Toronto (instead of Philly) won't mitigate this. Similarly if LeBron chooses a Houston team that loses to Golden State in the Western finals (this years defacto NBA championship) a LeBron jump to Houston is fair game for front-running, title chasing criticism.

D. So what, goal is to win titles, when you pick players on the schoolyard you don't try to make your team worse so that it'll mean more and enhance your status. Goal is to win.

E. Nothing is permanent. I don't know that Durant ever was or will be in the GOAT discussion, but equally he's not permanently removed and IF he wins another title this year they'll be chatter about is he the best player in the NBA right now. Overall though Durant's GOAT status is hurt by ongoing situation that LeBron, Curry, Harden, Westbrook and some coming (The Brow, The Freak, Simmons/Embid) have laid claim to best player in the league during KD's career. Whereas LeBron via his finals trips has continually proven that he's the winningest, most important or valuable player in the league for 10 years & counting.

 

[superjohn]

I mean if you’re trying to be the GOAT you can’t join a truly stacked team. As good as KD is and as revered he will be, he permanently removed himself from the GOAT discussion by joining the Warriors.

The only team that I can see LeBron joining that would help him win titles and not take him out of that discussion would be Philly, and that’s only because they are so young. I think just about anywhere else, the team is too stacked or established (Houston, GSW, Minnesota) and/or it would be more work getting them to be Finals than would be worth (LA, NY)

Part of his GOAT narrative if he were to join Philly would be that he made a significant change to his game (as would be necessary to play with Simmons) and brought up those young stars, aging well himself in the process as he becomes a more true small forward. The longevity aspect of his claim to the GOAT would be pretty staggering at that point. He will likely make it to 40/10/10 (in thousands) within the next 5 years wherever his next stop is: assuming he averages 90 games a year for a round number, he would only need to average 20/4/4 across those 5 years to get there by the end of 2023.

You don't think joining the top young big man and the top young do-it-all player on a team many think can make the finals this year would be joining a stacked team?

Lebron already joined a stacked team when he and a hall of fame power forward joined up with one of the best shooting guards ever who already brought a championship to his city.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Lebron already joined a stacked team when he and a hall of fame power forward joined up with one of the best shooting guards ever who already brought a championship to his city.

A team so "stacked" that they had gotten bent over by Boston in the first round of the playoffs the year before.

 

[Rocktheworld]

A. You are assuming Philly as of right now in their 'haven't won a playoff series yet' state. Assuming they win round 1, favorite in round 2 and have a 50-50 chance in next series, joining them this offseason could be viewed similarly to Durant's move.

Wow

Does Philly have a unanimous MVP?
Does Philly have two first-ballot HOFers (right now) and two additional perennial all-stars?
Did Philly just break the record for regular season wins?
Has Philly already won a championship?
Did Philly knock LeBron out of the playoffs (I’ll set aside coming back from 3-1)

The fact that in that scenario neither team “needed” the player who joined us the only (very broad) aspect as to how the situations could be comparable. But if you look at the circumstances surrounding the moves deeply and honestly, they are actually not even close.

B. I think new mercenary Laker squad is his best hope cuz then he can garner some of the team building credit again AND preserve the crucially important argument that he never had a HOF coach

LeBron isn’t in team building mode anymore (and the team is essentially built already unless a PG or Kawahi come with). And the HOF coach thing applies to Philly as well

C. If Philly is in the 2018 finals it is directly comparable to KD even without a prior title. Cleveland losing to Toronto (instead of Philly) won't mitigate this. Similarly if LeBron chooses a Houston team that loses to Golden State in the Western finals (this years defacto NBA championship) a LeBron jump to Houston is fair game for front-running, title chasing criticism.

None of those things will happen in my opinion

D. So what, goal is to win titles, when you pick players on the schoolyard you don't try to make your team worse so that it'll mean more and enhance your status. Goal is to win.

Careful you don’t undermine your own argument. Should LeBron try to get on the best team possible to win titles since that is literally the only thing MJ has on him?

E. Nothing is permanent. I don't know that Durant ever was or will be in the GOAT discussion, but equally he's not permanently removed and IF he wins another title this year they'll be chatter about is he the best player in the NBA right now. Overall though Durant's GOAT status is hurt by ongoing situation that LeBron, Curry, Harden, Westbrook and some coming (The Brow, The Freak, Simmons/Embid) have laid claim to best player in the league during KD's career. Whereas LeBron via his finals trips has continually proven that he's the winningest, most important or valuable player in the league for 10 years & counting.

Lmao KD was barely able to tread water at .500 with Klay, Daymond, and Kerr at his side in the worst division in the sport. He’s a couple seasons off being in the conversation for the best current player again. Man people look dumb for jumping that gun after last year’s finals

 

[superjohn]

A team so "stacked" that they had gotten bent over by Boston in the first round of the playoffs the year before.

What's your point? You don't think a team with 3 Hall of Famers is stacked?

 

[Rocktheworld]

You don't think joining the top young big man and the top young do-it-all player on a team many think can make the finals this year would be joining a stacked team?

Nope

Ben Simmons absolutely does not do-it-all btw

Lebron already joined a stacked team when he and a hall of fame power forward joined up with one of the best shooting guards ever who already brought a championship to his city.

Lmao touting Chris Bosch

And he didn’t join any team. The team was made when he and Bosch joined.

Don’t bother replying, few people on here have more fruitless exchanges than you do and I’m not interested.