NBA Playoffs

[traitor71]

Melo has been a disaster. He has to be the worst player in the league getting 30+ minutes.

Biggest move in the NBA this year was the one that didn't happen. When Houston was trying to get Melo before the season and failed to do so, they saved their season without even realizing it.

 

[intlzncster]

How many more titles? And how many more Finals losses can he incur?
Basically what does his remaining Finals record have to be for him to be the GOAT in your eyes?

I suspect this part will end up being moot. I think the one thing he cares about right now is being considered the GOAT. He'll go to a stacked team next year and bang out 2+ titles to further the cause.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I suspect this part will end up being moot. I think the one thing he cares about right now is being considered the GOAT. He'll go to a stacked team next year and bang out 2+ titles to further the cause.

I mean if you’re trying to be the GOAT you can’t join a truly stacked team. As good as KD is and as revered he will be, he permanently removed himself from the GOAT discussion by joining the Warriors.

The only team that I can see LeBron joining that would help him win titles and not take him out of that discussion would be Philly, and that’s only because they are so young. I think just about anywhere else, the team is too stacked or established (Houston, GSW, Minnesota) and/or it would be more work getting them to be Finals than would be worth (LA, NY)

Part of his GOAT narrative if he were to join Philly would be that he made a significant change to his game (as would be necessary to play with Simmons) and brought up those young stars, aging well himself in the process as he becomes a more true small forward. The longevity aspect of his claim to the GOAT would be pretty staggering at that point. He will likely make it to 40/10/10 (in thousands) within the next 5 years wherever his next stop is: assuming he averages 90 games a year for a round number, he would only need to average 20/4/4 across those 5 years to get there by the end of 2023.

 

[MadDogRevival]

. . . the East has been a trainwreck for 95% of LeBron's career. Getting to the Finals hasn't exactly been a gargantuan task.

In fact, it's so easy, nobody else has done it in almost a decade. Lol.
This is the same argument people use against the Patriots. The "easy path" argument.

. I believe LeBron has only defeated seven 50-win teams in the Eastern Conference playoffs in his career. MJ defeated 14 in the East; they've both been to the postseason 13 times.

Yeah, that's a ridiculously oversimplified analysis that's like those new "white reeses" cups.
Try this link, which gives an in-depth review of that exact question. Worth a read for those who are interested in MJ/LBJ comparisons. LINK
Further, I don't think strength of schedule captures the difference. As businesslawyer said, how many times were the bulls underdogs? What stuff teams did MJ bull to the finals?

Really, really disliked James after the decision fiasco. Really respect his game now. Incredible what he has done. Fact that he may end up the top scorer in league history and top 5 assists is absolutely nuts, particularly when you consider that the other guys in the top 10 scoring don't break top 30 in assists. Nuts.
If he pulls that off, he'll have to be considered to have the greatest career - people can argue whether he was the greatest player.
The thing that's really working for him going forward is that it's a 3 point league and the guy has made himself a very respectable 3 point shooter. As his physicality wanes, he an convert his game to a spot up shooter and not rely on crashing the rim so much.
In any event, as a basketball fan, a tremendous joy to watch.

 

[superjohn]

In fact, it's so easy, nobody else has done it in almost a decade. Lol.
This is the same argument people use against the Patriots. The "easy path" argument.

Yeah, that's a ridiculously oversimplified analysis that's like those new "white reeses" cups.
Try this link, which gives an in-depth review of that exact question. Worth a read for those who are interested in MJ/LBJ comparisons. LINK
Further, I don't think strength of schedule captures the difference. As businesslawyer said, how many times were the bulls underdogs? What stuff teams did MJ bull to the finals?

Really, really disliked James after the decision fiasco. Really respect his game now. Incredible what he has done. Fact that he may end up the top scorer in league history and top 5 assists is absolutely nuts, particularly when you consider that the other guys in the top 10 scoring don't break top 30 in assists. Nuts.
If he pulls that off, he'll have to be considered to have the greatest career - people can argue whether he was the greatest player.
The thing that's really working for him going forward is that it's a 3 point league and the guy has made himself a very respectable 3 point shooter. As his physicality wanes, he an convert his game to a spot up shooter and not rely on crashing the rim so much.
In any event, as a basketball fan, a tremendous joy to watch.

You don't think this has been a historically weak era for the East and that the West has had the majority of the top players and teams?

 

[Rocktheworld]

You don't think this has been a historically weak era for the East and that the West has had the majority of the top players and teams?

If LeBron makes it to eight CONSECUTIVE finals across three different teams in the East, how would that compare to him doing it in the West? Say, 4 consecutive times?

What does his current 7 compare to in the West?

 

[Lefty2one]

Try this link, which gives an in-depth review of that exact question. Worth a read for those who are interested in MJ/LBJ comparisons. LINK

First of all, there's no proof there, as the title promises. It's subjective as can be. Also, why does he feel the need to compare their postseasons chronologically? That's irrelevant in this debate. If anything you'd want to rank each player's postseasons by difficulty and then compare those seasons head to head but even that doesn't matter that much. It's about the big picture.

Lastly, we're debating who had a tougher road through the Eastern Conference and the author agrees that Jordan had it more difficult.

Jordan consistently had a tougher time through the first three rounds of the playoffs, which makes sense. There were fewer teams in the NBA during his time, so all of the talent in the Association was more tightly distributed than it is in 2017.

But LeBron undoubtedly went up against better opponents in the Finals because he plays in the age of player movement and superteams.

I've never heard anyone knock LeBron for having it easy once he reached The Finals.

 

[husky429]

I can't see lebron doing well in philly unless simmons changes. Lebrons best asset is his passing at the SF position. Same as Simmons.

What does a coach do with that?

 

[Dogdeacon]

How many more titles? And how many more Finals losses can he incur?
Basically what does his remaining Finals record have to be for him to be the GOAT in your eyes?

Obviously 6 titles is the benchmark, remembering Jordan was MVP each time.
Losing definitely undermines, but maybe an equation of 3-1 wherein assuming LeBron gets back to at or near 50% finals winning percentage each losing visits counts for 1/3. So his 3 wins and 5 losses equates to 3 x 1 + 5 *.33 = 4.67 championships. Another 2 wins especially with MVP and he's got a solid case.

But he if LeBron gets to 3-6 or worse the math changes and the losses hurt his legacy. Bill Russell's 11 titles and unblemished finals record is also in the conversation which makes this extra relevant.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I mean if you’re trying to be the GOAT you can’t join a truly stacked team. As good as KD is and as revered he will be, he permanently removed himself from the GOAT discussion by joining the Warriors.

The only team that I can see LeBron joining that would help him win titles and not take him out of that discussion would be Philly, and that’s only because they are so young. I think just about anywhere else, the team is too stacked or established (Houston, GSW, Minnesota) and/or it would be more work getting them to be Finals than would be worth (LA, NY)

Part of his GOAT narrative if he were to join Philly would be that he made a significant change to his game (as would be necessary to play with Simmons) and brought up those young stars, aging well himself in the process as he becomes a more true small forward. The longevity aspect of his claim to the GOAT would be pretty staggering at that point. He will likely make it to 40/10/10 (in thousands) within the next 5 years wherever his next stop is: assuming he averages 90 games a year for a round number, he would only need to average 20/4/4 across those 5 years to get there by the end of 2023.

A. You are assuming Philly as of right now in their 'haven't won a playoff series yet' state. Assuming they win round 1, favorite in round 2 and have a 50-50 chance in next series, joining them this offseason could be viewed similarly to Durant's move.

B. I think new mercenary Laker squad is his best hope cuz then he can garner some of the team building credit again AND preserve the crucially important argument that he never had a HOF coach

C. If Philly is in the 2018 finals it is directly comparable to KD even without a prior title. Cleveland losing to Toronto (instead of Philly) won't mitigate this. Similarly if LeBron chooses a Houston team that loses to Golden State in the Western finals (this years defacto NBA championship) a LeBron jump to Houston is fair game for front-running, title chasing criticism.

D. So what, goal is to win titles, when you pick players on the schoolyard you don't try to make your team worse so that it'll mean more and enhance your status. Goal is to win.

E. Nothing is permanent. I don't know that Durant ever was or will be in the GOAT discussion, but equally he's not permanently removed and IF he wins another title this year they'll be chatter about is he the best player in the NBA right now. Overall though Durant's GOAT status is hurt by ongoing situation that LeBron, Curry, Harden, Westbrook and some coming (The Brow, The Freak, Simmons/Embid) have laid claim to best player in the league during KD's career. Whereas LeBron via his finals trips has continually proven that he's the winningest, most important or valuable player in the league for 10 years & counting.

 

[superjohn]

I mean if you’re trying to be the GOAT you can’t join a truly stacked team. As good as KD is and as revered he will be, he permanently removed himself from the GOAT discussion by joining the Warriors.

The only team that I can see LeBron joining that would help him win titles and not take him out of that discussion would be Philly, and that’s only because they are so young. I think just about anywhere else, the team is too stacked or established (Houston, GSW, Minnesota) and/or it would be more work getting them to be Finals than would be worth (LA, NY)

Part of his GOAT narrative if he were to join Philly would be that he made a significant change to his game (as would be necessary to play with Simmons) and brought up those young stars, aging well himself in the process as he becomes a more true small forward. The longevity aspect of his claim to the GOAT would be pretty staggering at that point. He will likely make it to 40/10/10 (in thousands) within the next 5 years wherever his next stop is: assuming he averages 90 games a year for a round number, he would only need to average 20/4/4 across those 5 years to get there by the end of 2023.

You don't think joining the top young big man and the top young do-it-all player on a team many think can make the finals this year would be joining a stacked team?

Lebron already joined a stacked team when he and a hall of fame power forward joined up with one of the best shooting guards ever who already brought a championship to his city.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Lebron already joined a stacked team when he and a hall of fame power forward joined up with one of the best shooting guards ever who already brought a championship to his city.

A team so "stacked" that they had gotten bent over by Boston in the first round of the playoffs the year before.

 

[Rocktheworld]

A. You are assuming Philly as of right now in their 'haven't won a playoff series yet' state. Assuming they win round 1, favorite in round 2 and have a 50-50 chance in next series, joining them this offseason could be viewed similarly to Durant's move.

Wow

Does Philly have a unanimous MVP?
Does Philly have two first-ballot HOFers (right now) and two additional perennial all-stars?
Did Philly just break the record for regular season wins?
Has Philly already won a championship?
Did Philly knock LeBron out of the playoffs (I’ll set aside coming back from 3-1)

The fact that in that scenario neither team “needed” the player who joined us the only (very broad) aspect as to how the situations could be comparable. But if you look at the circumstances surrounding the moves deeply and honestly, they are actually not even close.

B. I think new mercenary Laker squad is his best hope cuz then he can garner some of the team building credit again AND preserve the crucially important argument that he never had a HOF coach

LeBron isn’t in team building mode anymore (and the team is essentially built already unless a PG or Kawahi come with). And the HOF coach thing applies to Philly as well

C. If Philly is in the 2018 finals it is directly comparable to KD even without a prior title. Cleveland losing to Toronto (instead of Philly) won't mitigate this. Similarly if LeBron chooses a Houston team that loses to Golden State in the Western finals (this years defacto NBA championship) a LeBron jump to Houston is fair game for front-running, title chasing criticism.

None of those things will happen in my opinion

D. So what, goal is to win titles, when you pick players on the schoolyard you don't try to make your team worse so that it'll mean more and enhance your status. Goal is to win.

Careful you don’t undermine your own argument. Should LeBron try to get on the best team possible to win titles since that is literally the only thing MJ has on him?

E. Nothing is permanent. I don't know that Durant ever was or will be in the GOAT discussion, but equally he's not permanently removed and IF he wins another title this year they'll be chatter about is he the best player in the NBA right now. Overall though Durant's GOAT status is hurt by ongoing situation that LeBron, Curry, Harden, Westbrook and some coming (The Brow, The Freak, Simmons/Embid) have laid claim to best player in the league during KD's career. Whereas LeBron via his finals trips has continually proven that he's the winningest, most important or valuable player in the league for 10 years & counting.

Lmao KD was barely able to tread water at .500 with Klay, Daymond, and Kerr at his side in the worst division in the sport. He’s a couple seasons off being in the conversation for the best current player again. Man people look dumb for jumping that gun after last year’s finals

 

[superjohn]

A team so "stacked" that they had gotten bent over by Boston in the first round of the playoffs the year before.

What's your point? You don't think a team with 3 Hall of Famers is stacked?

 

[Rocktheworld]

You don't think joining the top young big man and the top young do-it-all player on a team many think can make the finals this year would be joining a stacked team?

Nope

Ben Simmons absolutely does not do-it-all btw

Lebron already joined a stacked team when he and a hall of fame power forward joined up with one of the best shooting guards ever who already brought a championship to his city.

Lmao touting Chris Bosch

And he didn’t join any team. The team was made when he and Bosch joined.

Don’t bother replying, few people on here have more fruitless exchanges than you do and I’m not interested.

 

[superjohn]

Nope

Ben Simmons absolutely does not do-it-all btw


Lmao touting Chris Bosch

And he didn’t join any team. The team was made when he and Bosch joined.

Don’t bother replying, few people on here have more fruitless exchanges than you do

Dude, you are positing Lebron is a better player than a guy you never even watched play. I was trying to be nice and play along but you're floundering as per usual.

His name is Chris Bosh.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Careful you don’t undermine your own argument. Should LeBron try to get on the best team possible to win titles since that is literally the only thing MJ has on him?

Ugh, your sense of humor needs tweaking along with your bias. No one said Philly- Golden State are the EXACT same, but if they lose in the finals or semis it is similar. Or it will be compared. Simmons & Embid if they stay healthy are similarly good at basketball (which may be what matters) to Curry & Draymond or Curry and Klay, I honestly don't know who your 2nd HOFer is after Curry but even he isn't a lock yet. 2HOFers and 2 perennial all-stars (currently!?)?

Regardless the point isn't the resumes or past accomplishments, its the fact that if LeBron joins a Houston or a Philly he will join an already championship contending team with very good basketball players and turn it into a heavily favorite stacked team. If you don't think its fair to criticize that or think that all comparisons to KD are invalid because its not the exact same you are myopically & hopelessly biased.

And I'm not undermining my argument. I think LeBron should go where he wants to go and I will not hate on him for his choice and/or plug his decision into some basketball team algorithm that determines his legacy and my like/dislike thereof. I just hope wherever he goes it results in competitive basketball games that are fun to watch. Incidentally along those lines, last year's finals was competitive. In most views including yours this year is wide open. So did Durant join and create and unassailable juggernaut or are they treading water? Can't be both.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Ugh, your sense of humor needs tweaking along with your bias. No one said Philly- Golden State are the EXACT same, but if they lose in the finals or semis it is similar. Or it will be compared.

I’m not acting as if anyone said they’re the same. I don’t think they are similar or comparable.

Simmons & Embid if they stay healthy are similarly good at basketball (which may be what matters) to Curry & Draymond or Curry and Klay,

okay.gif

I honestly don't know who your 2nd HOFer is after Curry but even he isn't a lock yet. 2HOFers and 2 perennial all-stars (currently!?)?

Steph and Kerr are first-ballot. The fact that you don’t see that Steph is a lock is pretty incredible.

Then add Draymond and Klay (both of whom will be in the HOF one day too) as your perennial all-stars.

Regardless the point isn't the resumes or past accomplishments, its the fact that if LeBron joins a Houston or a Philly he will join an already championship contending team with very good basketball players and turn it into a heavily favorite stacked team. If you don't think its fair to criticize that or think that all comparisons to KD are invalid because its not the exact same you are myopically & hopelessly biased.

Lol the guy who can only focus on a single boiled-down feature of the respective moves while completely ignoring context is calling me myopic.

So did Durant join and create and unassailable juggernaut or are they treading water? Can't be both.

He joined, had no hand in creating, a juggernaut (again, that pesky thing called context) that enjoyed, in some ways, unparalleled success before he showed up.

He got exposed and was treading water when Steph was out, but he still had Klay, Draymond, and Kerr on his side.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don’t understand how rocktw always avoids talking about the actual playing of basketball. Instead it’s semantics of is Curry a lock, surefire or probable HOFee. What can be compared, what is similar ? These are important perfectly objective distinctions with singular answers.

Or simply Kerr doesn’t play lol

 

[nelsonmuntz]

5 years from now, when Milwaukee is back in the lottery, Bucks fans wonder why they didn't do more with all this talent in its prime.

 

[champs99and04]

It's nearly impossible to do the MJ vs LeBron debate from this perspective. Way, way too many variables.

The best way I can frame it is that MJ never lost a series his team should have won.

LeBron has two: the 2011 Finals and the 2009 ECF. His disappearing act in 2011 is a major blemish on his resume/legacy IMO. At the same time, him defeating a 73-win GSW team for the title is a bigger accomplishment than anything MJ did in a single season (with the big assist to Draymond).

I lean towards Jordan in this debate, but I don't see how you can possibly hold a series in which LeBron averaged 39/8/8 against him. There's no way in hell you can say they should have won that series. I actually thought the loss to Boston the following year was more egregious (people look at the names on that Celtics team, but they weren't nearly as good as they were in '08).

 

[nelsonmuntz]

That last play is Bucks basketball in a nutshell. Muhammad makes a great save under the basket, kicks it out to Bledsoe who had already turned his back to the play.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Maker is ready to be the next garbage player who starts crap every game

 

[champs99and04]

That last play is Bucks basketball in a nutshell. Muhammad makes a great save under the basket, kicks it out to Bledsoe who had already turned his back to the play.

The Bucks have won the NBA combine, that's for sure. Holy length. They have no business losing this series, but Stevens is the real deal.

 

[Walker11]

That last play is Bucks basketball in a nutshell. Muhammad makes a great save under the basket, kicks it out to Bledsoe who had already turned his back to the play.

Ehh Bledsoe was getting back on defense, as were most players on the floor. It looked obvious that the C's would get the rebound. I do agree with your previous posts on the Bucks, though. You will rarely see a larger disparity in quality of coaching than in this series. When you see rotations changing wholesale game to game its often a good hint that the coach is floundering.