NBA Finals Thread

[bballgrda]

I love the reactionaries. Durant is really good, but you are crazy if you think he is better than Lebron imo. It is true that Lebron's defense was subpar (especially by his standards) this series. However, you have to view everything in context.

The workload Lebron is shouldering is massive compared to Durant's - he doesn't have infinite energy. Steph is the key piece to the Warriors offense and is who the Cavs were most focused on. He drew plenty of double teams and had so much gravity which enabled Durant to get tons of favorable matchups.

There was that play in the first game when a Cav ran to the shooter in the corner on a fastbreak giving Durant a wide open lane to dunk (1 of 6 in that first half) - I think that epitomizes the whole series.

 

[auror]

You have to be kidding. Durant is a total joke. He had to go to GSW with 3 top 15 players to be relevant.

You know he won MVP a few seasons back, right?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

The workload Lebron is shouldering is massive compared to Durant's -

Yeah obviously Durant is a transcendent player but I'm not sure that what we just witnessed supports the notion that he's challenging Lebron for best player in the world.

 

[Walker11]

I love the reactionaries. Durant is really *** good, but you are crazy if you think he is better than Lebron imo. It is true that Lebron's defense was subpar (especially by his standards) this series. However, you have to view everything in context.

The workload Lebron is shouldering is massive compared to Durant's - he doesn't have infinite energy. Steph is the key piece to the Warriors offense and is who the Cavs were most focused on. He drew plenty of double teams and had so much gravity which enabled Durant to get tons of favorable matchups.

There was that play in the first game when a Cav ran to the shooter in the corner on a fastbreak giving Durant a wide open lane to dunk (1 of 6 in that first half) - I think that epitomizes the whole series.

I love KD, it is evidenced throughout all of NBA threads but it is difficult to compare the two considering their surrounding casts. I think someone can make a fine argument that KD is better than LeBron right now, even if I may not agree.

Still, the rotation point differential stats show that GSW is a significantly worse team when Curry is sitting compared to when KD is sitting. And Cleveland goes from the 2nd best team in the league to the 26th best team, or something in that range, when Lebron is sitting.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Can we also talk about how absolutely AWFUL Tristan Thompson has been? Doesn't look remotely like a basketball player right now.

I think that he was out-athleted during this series. His clunky, hard-nosed rebounding style did not work well in a game with 9 quick athletes around him.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I think someone can make a fine argument that KD is better than LeBron right now, even if I may not agree.

Durant is taller, quicker, a better ball handler, a significantly better shooter, and a better defender.
One on one, he probably destroys LBJ (along with everybody else)!
The guy is amazing to watch. Like watching an oversized gazelle dart through a herd of wildebeests on his way to the green grass.

BUT, he lacks in the one area in which LeBron excels - namely, LeBron makes everybody around him better. Much better. In fact, having LeBron at your side probably pushes you really close to your max output as a player.

Durant? Not so much. 3.8 APG versus 7.0 for LeBron, career.

I'm still butt hurt about this year. Would have been an epic GSW/Cavs fight - probably 7 games. Would have got to see IRving/James go against Curry/Thompson. Would have been great drama. Instead, we see Curry in a support role, at times, and Thompson flashing here or there. What a friggin shame. Worst part is, the rivalry, which would have been epic and would have been looking at a 4th year next year, is pretty much dead.

Durant - sweet, sweet talent. But he's no LeBron.

Gonna miss LBJ. Couldn't even stand to hear his name after "the decision." Thought that was super poor taste. Now, I'm lamenting the fact that we may have just seen his peak year or so, and he's going to be dropping off fast.

 

[Walker11]

I think that he was out-athleted during this series. His clunky, hard-nosed rebounding style did not work well in a game with 9 quick athletes around him.

The thing is that Thompson actually has a reputation as being one of the best big men in the league at switching onto and containing guards. He is not a run/jump guy but he is long and has the agility. This is not an opinion I formed on my own, but an opinion of people who watch much more basketball than I do. I am going to side with Van Gundy and go with the Kardashian curse.

It is difficult to play 2 big men against the Warriors. Love was fine on D in this series but he is the primary issue when it comes to switching onto guards. People say you can't out small ball the best small ball team ever, but good luck trying to beat them with 2 bigs. They managed that last year without KD but never will again IMO.

Lebron is a perfect small ball 4. Keep Thompson at the 5 and flip Love for another wing. Easier said than done but this is my hope.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I thought this finals was set up perfect for Uncle Drew to take next step to superstardom.

Guess not.

 

[Walker11]

Durant is taller, quicker, a better ball handler, a significantly better shooter, and a better defender.
One on one, he probably destroys LBJ (along with everybody else)!
The guy is amazing to watch. Like watching an oversized gazelle dart through a herd of wildebeests on his way to the green grass.

BUT, he lacks in the one area in which LeBron excels - namely, LeBron makes everybody around him better. Much better. In fact, having LeBron at your side probably pushes you really close to your max output as a player.

Durant? Not so much. 3.8 APG versus 7.0 for LeBron, career.

I'm still butt hurt about this year. Would have been an epic GSW/Cavs fight - probably 7 games. Would have got to see IRving/James go against Curry/Thompson. Would have been great drama. Instead, we see Curry in a support role, at times, and Thompson flashing here or there. What a friggin shame. Worst part is, the rivalry, which would have been epic and would have been looking at a 4th year next year, is pretty much dead.

Durant - sweet, sweet talent. But he's no LeBron.

Gonna miss LBJ. Couldn't even stand to hear his name after "the decision." Thought that was super poor taste. Now, I'm lamenting the fact that we may have just seen his peak year or so, and he's going to be dropping off fast.

I agree with a lot of your sentiments here but I have to remember that you think Kyrie is better than Durant. Durant is at worst the 3rd best player in the NBA, and no, Kyrie is definitely not #2.

KD definitely makes his teammates much better. Not only is he a much improved passer, but the whole gravity thing is all the rage now in the NBA analytic community and KD stacks up here. Not as much as Curry, and this was behind my take a few posts up where I agreed with pumping the brakes on the KD>Lebron talk.

You hated Lebron after the Decision. So did everyone else in the world outside of Miami. I rooted like hell for the Spurs and Mavs against them. The KD outrage wasn't even close in comparison. I imagine everyone, including you, is going to move past the outrage in 2 years.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Yeah obviously Durant is a transcendent player but I'm not sure that what we just witnessed supports the notion that he's challenging Lebron for best player in the world.

Agree. Durant has always been the more natural/ versatile scorer. And while he has improved greatly in his all around game (especially his passing), He's still not at Lebron level.

Although you could argue kd is the better defender now. Either way the gap isn't nearly what it was when they met in the finals last time. Kd definitely stepped his game up a notch.

 

[Hoophound]

Kind of hard to say KD really closed the gap on LeBron when KD is playing on an all star team. It makes things a lot easier when Curry is getting double teamed despite the fact that all 5 players on the floor need to be closely guarded. If they switched places LeBron would be putting up big numbers and KD would look awful by comparison. I've never been a big LBJ fan but he's just awesome. It is his strength that makes the difference. Such a big dude.

 

[NielsisGood]

Yeah obviously Durant is a transcendent player but I'm not sure that what we just witnessed supports the notion that he's challenging Lebron for best player in the world.

Instead of tying yourself in knots with statements like these just consider how Durant was the best player on the floor in 4 of the 5 games, was outstanding on both ends, and just clearly appeared to be the most ubiquitous presence on the floor. The gap in both players' defensive showing is enough to tip the scales in Durant's favor.

 

[NielsisGood]

Agree. Durant has always been the more natural/ versatile scorer. And while he has improved greatly in his all around game (especially his passing), He's still not at Lebron level.

Although you could argue kd is the better defender now. Either way the gap isn't nearly what it was when they met in the finals last time. Kd definitely stepped his game up a notch.

So if KD is both a better scorer and defender, how is he not the better player at that point? Just because LeBron is more on-ball dominant as opposed to the GSW hot potato style and it leads to more APG for LBJ?

 

[MadDogRevival]

I agree with a lot of your sentiments here but I have to remember that you think Kyrie is better than Durant.

No I don't. I was trolling and throwing things out (GSW no chemistry, Cleveland better) in order to try to rationalize why this series wasn't a disaster. I didn't bet on it, and I thought the Cavs would lose in 4.

I got over the decision - it was stupid, but it was more a bad PR decision than anything. I thought it was rude to the fans in Cleveland, who didn't deserve him anyway with that snow team they put around him. It was a bad decision, but not necessarily reflective of character.

Durant is wholly different. What Durant did, to me, was cowardly. Just my opinion. It showed a basic lack of pride and fight. I never wanted to be on the stacked team growing up and playing sports. I suppose it's a personality thing. I consider the win this year to be devoid of glory. It was like a grown man beating up a 12 year old. How can anybody cheer for that?

 

[NielsisGood]

No I don't. I was trolling and throwing things out (GSW no chemistry, Cleveland better) in order to try to rationalize why this series wasn't a disaster. I didn't bet on it, and I thought the Cavs would lose in 4.

I got over the decision - it was stupid, but it was more a bad PR decision than anything. I thought it was rude to the fans in Cleveland, who didn't deserve him anyway with that snow team they put around him. It was a bad decision, but not necessarily reflective of character.

Durant is wholly different. What Durant did, to me, was cowardly. Just my opinion. It showed a basic lack of pride and fight. I never wanted to be on the stacked team growing up and playing sports. I suppose it's a personality thing. I consider the win this year to be devoid of glory. It was like a grown man beating up a 12 year old. How can anybody cheer for that?

How is Durant leaving any worse? OKC traded Harden over a few million dollars and then made exactly 0 significant acquisitions over his last 4-5 seasons there. Also, it's not too difficult to imagine Westbrook being a frustrating guy to play with when you're watching him shoot 6-7 3s per game at a sub 30% clip.

 

[Mr. French]

Generally speaking, I'd like to chime in on the KD newly minted best topic ... I don't think that's fair YET, as many have pointed out.

He stepped his game up BIG TIME in the finals. I'd say that, unfair or fair, if he did this exact thing with any other team, that convo would be loud and prevalent.

He played phenomenal, always has been phenomenal, but GS is built perfectly for him, and vice versa.

It's one of the couple things that have made me go easy on him as far as his decision. The difference, as a scorer and one of the main playmakers, between how OKC plays and GS plays, is enormous.

His physical tools make his Defensive possibilities unlimited, and he's starting to turn it up on that end. And he's always been one of the most pure scorers ever born.

But I can't say based on what I've seen that he's now BETTER than Lebron.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Durant is wholly different. What Durant did, to me, was cowardly. Just my opinion. It showed a basic lack of pride and fight. I never wanted to be on the stacked team growing up and playing sports. I suppose it's a personality thing. I consider the win this year to be devoid of glory. It was like a grown man beating up a 12 year old. How can anybody cheer for that?

I just can't get over how prevalent this take is. There's so little difference in what Lebron has done twice now vs. what Durant did. They both left teams that were unable to put championship-caliber talent around them (including depth) and found the best possible situations for their chances to win. Lebron was essentially given carte blanche in building a Cavs team that already had some high quality players and the number 1 overall pick. And when it came down to it, they gave up way too many easy baskets where they just didn't get back and weren't able to distribute the ball like the Warriors. They perfected the Lebron model by adding great coaching and drafting better.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I just can't get over how prevalent this take is. There's so little difference in what Lebron has done twice now vs. what Durant did.

There's a massive difference. One's ability to see it appears to be inversely related to how much one dislikes LeBron.
Durant went to the best team in the league, that was already the best team without him, and that already had set a regular season win record - without him. They would have been in the finals - without him. They probably would have won - without him. He could have sucked big nuts and they probably win - without him. Yeah yeah, he had big stats in the finals, but so what? If he's not taking the shot, then Curry or Thompson or Green eat up those shots.

The "take" is prevalent because there's an overriding feeling that he wasn't needed by the Warriors, who didn't need him, and he went there not to make a difference, because they didn't need him for that, but rather to put on a ring. He, quite literally, could have blown out both ACLs in December, not played another game, and still gotten a ring (assuming they give them out to injured players).

That was not the case either time for LeBron, AT ALL, and if you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see that.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

There's a massive difference. One's ability to see it appears to be inversely related to how much one dislikes LeBron.
Durant went to the best team in the league, that was already the best team without him, and that already had set a regular season win record - without him. They would have been in the finals - without him. They probably would have won - without him. He could have sucked big nuts and they probably win - without him. Yeah yeah, he had big stats in the finals, but so what? If he's not taking the shot, then Curry or Thompson or Green eat up those shots.

The "take" is prevalent because there's an overriding feeling that he wasn't needed by the Warriors, who didn't need him, and he went there not to make a difference, because they didn't need him for that, but rather to put on a ring. He, quite literally, could have blown out both ACLs in December, not played another game, and still gotten a ring (assuming they give them out to injured players).

That was not the case either time for LeBron, AT ALL, and if you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see that.

BS, Durant may have done it to a higher degree, but Lebron leaving for "superteams" in both Miami and then Cleveland massively swung the balance of power in the NBA. I don't have any issue with Lebron at all, he did what he had to do to have the best shot to win a championship and so did Durant.

 

[Rocktheworld]

There's a massive difference. One's ability to see it appears to be inversely related to how much one dislikes LeBron.
Durant went to the best team in the league, that was already the best team without him, and that already had set a regular season win record - without him. They would have been in the finals - without him. They probably would have won - without him. He could have sucked big nuts and they probably win - without him. Yeah yeah, he had big stats in the finals, but so what? If he's not taking the shot, then Curry or Thompson or Green eat up those shots.

The "take" is prevalent because there's an overriding feeling that he wasn't needed by the Warriors, who didn't need him, and he went there not to make a difference, because they didn't need him for that, but rather to put on a ring. He, quite literally, could have blown out both ACLs in December, not played another game, and still gotten a ring (assuming they give them out to injured players).

That was not the case either time for LeBron, AT ALL, and if you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see that.

What was their record without KD? Oh that's right, they won like 15 straight games.

LeBron sits for literally two minutes and the entire game shifts and becomes un-winnable. Part of the reason we can't really gauge LeBron's value is because he has NEVER been hurt for any extended period of time.

 

[gtcam]

There's a massive difference. One's ability to see it appears to be inversely related to how much one dislikes LeBron.
Durant went to the best team in the league, that was already the best team without him, and that already had set a regular season win record - without him. They would have been in the finals - without him. They probably would have won - without him. He could have sucked big nuts and they probably win - without him. Yeah yeah, he had big stats in the finals, but so what? If he's not taking the shot, then Curry or Thompson or Green eat up those shots.

The "take" is prevalent because there's an overriding feeling that he wasn't needed by the Warriors, who didn't need him, and he went there not to make a difference, because they didn't need him for that, but rather to put on a ring. He, quite literally, could have blown out both ACLs in December, not played another game, and still gotten a ring (assuming they give them out to injured players).

That was not the case either time for LeBron, AT ALL, and if you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see that.

IMHO you over exaggerated in your post
There is no way you can definitively say that without KD, GS would have beaten the Cavs. What if Green went ballistic and there was no KD there to calm him down, he gets T'd and thrown out/suspended - Green reacts to KD, not anyone else on that floor. What if the Cavs 2nd team and JS had huge finals - no guarantee of a GS win in that case
Yeah Yeah he had big stats you say - big deal? It sure was. Also his defensive presence was a beautiful thing to watch.

Obviously you are a LeBron disciple - yeah he is a great player but his flopping and his whining are getting out of hand. If LeBron could join a team like GS, he would in a heartbeat - but then again maybe not - at GS he would never be able to throw up 30 shots in a playoff game. LJ and KI took 63% of the shots for Cleveland in game 5 - that is ridiculous and shows that these two guys don't care to share or want to trust guys like Love. It was 2v5 and a sad thing to watch.
Again, LeBron is great but he does things, in my mind, that tarnish his image.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[champs99and04]

He definitely steps it up when it matters. Regular season a few years ago, he was not the best. But he uses his length very well in the playoffs, especially the last 2 years.



Agreed 100%.



There's definitely a broader analytics debate that Kyrie embodies. What's the value of creating your own shot and winning 1 on 1 vs. team pace and space basketball? Does it become more important in the playoffs when guys are "trying harder" (sub-question, are guys really more motivated and "locked in" during the playoffs?) There's a backlash against iso-ball because post-MJ players who weren't good enough at it were overdoing it, and teams would often defer to their franchise guy in key moments to their own detriment.

But this game has always been, and will always be, about buckets.



I don't agree with this. They've got two Avery Bradleys on the roster (JR Smith and Iman Shumpert). I understand that specifically against Golden State he's in a difficult spot because of Durant, but against literally every other team he's a big plus. His spacing and shooting destroyed Boston. His DREB% was 30% (and his outlets ignited their fast break), and he had a 60% TS% overall in the playoffs. He was still 6th in playoff win shares. I don't think it's a coincidence that the game in the Finals he shot well from 3, they won.



Nailed it.

Great stuff here, I haven't seen it put quite that succinctly by many people. Those type of discussions are what make basketball great, IMO.

I agree that Love was great for most of the season, I just don't think the "against literally every other team..." retort matters much when that one team is the only one that matters. It's kind of like saying, "but my trainer prepared me so well for everybody except Ali."

Don't think Smith or Shump are nearly as good as Bradley.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Obviously you are a LeBron disciple - yeah he is a great player but his flopping and his whining are getting out of hand. If LeBron could join a team like GS, he would in a heartbeat - but then again maybe not - at GS he would never be able to throw up 30 shots in a playoff game. LJ and KI took 63% of the shots for Cleveland in game 5 - that is ridiculous and shows that these two guys don't care to share or want to trust guys like Love. It was 2v5 and a sad thing to watch.

You're ripping someone else for bias and then you post this nonsense. I love it.

 

[MadDogRevival]

but Lebron leaving for "superteams" in both Miami and then Cleveland massively swung the balance of power in the NBA.

You're just not wanting to get it.
LBJ went to a Heat team that finished 5th in the Conference and lost in the 1st round. Without LBJ, they have zero shot of even getting out of the East.
LBJ went to a Cleveland to a losing, non-playoff team that had zero shot of getting out of the East without him.

Durant went to the favorites to win it all - without him.

The funny part is, it's dancing on your face after you spit it out, and you refuse to see it. You said LBJ moving "massively swung the balance of power". Right! Exactly!

Durant? His move didn't even move the needle much. GS went from "clear favorites" to "very clear favorites."

pretty funy

 

[WhereistheDove?]

You're just not wanting to get it.
LBJ went to a Heat team that finished 5th in the Conference and lost in the 1st round. Without LBJ, they have zero shot of even getting out of the East.
LBJ went to a Cleveland to a losing, non-playoff team that had zero shot of getting out of the East without him.

Durant went to the favorites to win it all - without him.

The funny part is, it's dancing on your face after you spit it out, and you refuse to see it. You said LBJ moving "massively swung the balance of power". Right! Exactly!

Durant? His move didn't even move the needle much. GS went from "clear favorites" to "very clear favorites."

pretty funy

He didn't just go. He brought Kevin love with him. You're ignoring that LBJs jumps have all come with a superstar. KDs didn't.

 

[superjohn]

You're just not wanting to get it.
LBJ went to a Heat team that finished 5th in the Conference and lost in the 1st round. Without LBJ, they have zero shot of even getting out of the East.
LBJ went to a Cleveland to a losing, non-playoff team that had zero shot of getting out of the East without him.

Durant went to the favorites to win it all - without him.

The funny part is, it's dancing on your face after you spit it out, and you refuse to see it. You said LBJ moving "massively swung the balance of power". Right! Exactly!

Durant? His move didn't even move the needle much. GS went from "clear favorites" to "very clear favorites."

pretty funy

Of course the moves aren't exactly the same but you sound like Lebron saying he never played on a "super" team. He handpicked his team in Miami where he said he would win not 5, 6, 7...championships and hand picked his team in Cleveland. Somehow you also fail to mention Lebron brought along Chris Bosh a (24/11) guy to Miami and Kevin Love a (26/12.5) guy to Cleveland. Lebron is amazing and still better than Durant IMO but your post is disingenuous just like it is disingenuous when Lebron says he never played on any "super" teams.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

I feel like you took an amalgamation of other people's thoughts and made a TL;DR post of the thread up to this point, except this TL;DR actually ended up being the longest post of the entire thread.

Except, also, that I actually read it and found it rather complete. The only thing not mentioned is speculation that KD went to GSW to satisfy his mom in the same way LBJ returned to Cleveland. There are multiple definitions of 'home;' at different times, I would have assigned such status to a desk kept at my sister's house and my telephone. Mom was very happy and proud to see her son win, and both could be pleased with how well well he played on both ends of the court in doing so.

 

[NielsisGood]

You're ripping someone else for bias and then you post this nonsense. I love it.

He did have a couple solid points though. Still better than your posting to essentially announce that you're not sure what to think.

 

[joober jones]

I'm just glad it's over. This was one of the least enjoyable NBA playoff seasons/championship series in recent memory. I wish we could go back to the 80s Lakers/Celtics days.

 

[James]

Quick kevin Ollie shout out @ around 1:54:00