My sources

[upstater]

Quick point in response to frank's comments about the increasing admissions standards at the southern state schools. You left out a key point. Admissions at all state university's are skyrocketing and it is in large part due to the ridiculous price of college right now and the state of our economy. UConn has benefited from this as well. UConn is way harder to get into now then it was 5-7 years ago. People know that they don't want to waste their money on a crappy private school that costs $40,000/yr when their state school is half of that.

Regarding BC...who blames them for hating UConn at this point. UConn led the charge in suing them and the ACC when they left (albeit surreptitiously). I don't think BC has the pull to be able to keep UConn out of the ACC if others were enthusiastic about UConn joining. People here are poopooing BC's athletic program but they are half the size of UConn and have had a Division 1 football program for years and years whereas UConn is just recently getting involved. BC's reputation has been skyrocketing over the past 10 years or so. Presidents value the school because its academics are excellent and they spend a ton of money on their sports programs.

Say what you want about BC...but they have out maneuvered UConn at every stage of conference realignment. They have positioned themselves very well whereas UConn has positioned themselves horribly.

Edit: Forgot to mention Hockey. I remember HFD and I discussed this a bit maybe a month ago, but BC brings with it the #1 hockey program in the country. This isn't determinative...but it definitely helps when it comes to B1G.

When it comes to the south, where there are fewer excellent private schools, this isn't driven by the rise in private school tuition (in fact, with scholarships, many people might find private schools to be cheaper in some states, like PA. or MI.). It's more driven by demographics. There are more college age kids applying for school because the net population is growing, but schools are not enlarging classes.

Does BC hate Syracuse too? Because Syracuse ripped Leahy to shreds with invective. And Pitt was in on the suit. as for whether BC has pull, what of the multiple reports (not one, but more than one) about Duke and UNC being flabbergasted in this go round? Or Gene Flipper 2 years ago making claims in the Boston Globe about blackballing UConn in committee (you don't need to do it in the final vote, you just do it in committee, then everyone thinks twice about supporting the blackballed school because in collegial committees, you don't go against a very strong stand for fear that eventually that person will vote against one of your strong positions).

I remain unimpressed by BC sports. And I think the person in the BC ADs office who spoke to Bob Ryan was right, "UConn will overtake BC in sports."

 

[whaler11]

Frank you have to understand that The Boneyard is able to bash BC for not wanting UConn as a local rival while at the same time building a case to keep UMass down.

 

[upstater]

Frank you have to understand that The Boneyard is able to bash BC for not wanting UConn as a local rival while at the same time building a case to keep UMass down.

You really think UConn would blackball UMass? Really, if UMass were on par with UConn and wanted to join the BE, you think UConn would blackball them? I don't.

I can totally understand why Duke and UNC are flabbergasted.

 

[UConn5]

So you're arguing that BC hasn't out maneuvered UConn but are claiming that they were able to use their influence to block UConn from being invited to the ACC.

I don't doubt that UConn eventually passes BC in all sports. As a UConn fan I hope they do but they have done a poor job compared to BC in securing the future prosperity of their athletic programs.

I just find it incredibly interesting that BC has been able to exert such influence in this process despite their lack of value. That has to do with leadership, which has been lacking at UConn.

 

[upstater]

So you're arguing that BC hasn't out maneuvered UConn

I argued the opposite. I argued they used their position in the ACC to blackball UConn.

but are claiming that they were able to use their influence to block UConn from being invited to the ACC.

The BC AD claimed this. Then we read reports two years later from UNC and Duke that they were flabbergasted by BC's position.

I don't doubt that UConn eventually passes BC in all sports. As a UConn fan I hope they do but they have done a poor job compared to BC in securing the future prosperity of their athletic programs.

I just find it incredibly interesting that BC has been able to exert such influence in this process despite their lack of value. That has to do with leadership, which has been lacking at UConn.

It has to do with their position in the ACC!

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Speaking as a Big Ten guy, FSU is effectively on the same tier as Nebraska academically (only FSU has never had AAU status) along with AAU schools such as Missouri, Kansas and Iowa State (who are in the AAU more for historical legacy purposes as opposed to based on their academic output today). As a result, FSU might be a bit of an academic stretch on paper, but not so much of a stretch when it has a similarly situated institution as a member in a state with about 1/10th of the population.

More importantly, Jim Delany has said one word with respect to expansion more than any other (more than "football", more than "academics", more than "television"): DEMOGRAPHICS. Look back at his quotes over the years and he has said that particular word over and over and over again. He doesn't just mean TV markets - what he's referring to is getting into areas where the most population growth is occurring. The Big Ten wants this not just for sports, but for recruiting "normal" college students in the future as the growth in the Midwest slows. Well, if you look at where a disproportionate amount of the population growth in the US is occurring, outside of the state of Texas, it's occurring in the Washington, DC region south through North Carolina, down to Atlanta and all through Florida. Hmmmm... look at list #1 in the OP's post.

The upshot is that Florida State, more than any single school that the Big Ten could realistically add (e.g. not counting Texas from the Big 12, Florida from the SEC, or USC/UCLA from the Pac-12), is a complete game changer on the demographics front. It's the move that adds the largest population base. It's the move that adds the most money for the Big Ten's national TV contracts. It's the move that adds the most money for the market-based model of the BTN. It's the move that adds the most for football on-the-field. It's the move that adds the state that's the single biggest home of Big Ten alums that's outside of the Midwest.

Anyone that is thinking that the Big Ten is just going to automatically pass up FSU on academic grounds is foolish (and if they're going to pass up FSU on academic grounds, then they're going to pass up UConn on academic grounds because that really does mean that AAU membership is the Big Ten's be-all end-all for anyone not named Notre Dame). Look at how Florida is growing and the way that the acceptance standards to both Florida and FSU are getting tougher and tougher in connection with that population growth. The academic reputation of Texas A&M was "meh" 20 years ago, but the in-state population explosion has turned its admissions standards completely around and it gained AAU status in the past decade. Once again, people should pay very close attention to list #1 in the OP's post. Assuming that Notre Dame continues to rebuff the Big Ten, the next 4 schools form a contiguous footprint (with 3 of those schools already being elite academic institutions) that makes the most sense in terms of demographics, TV money and actual football on-the-field in every way.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Big Ten will pull this off. Even as a Big Ten guy, I'm very skeptical of the ability for the conference to take UNC or even UVA (which then makes taking Georgia Tech and/or FSU more difficult geographically). However, do I believe that the OP's list #1 is exactly what the Big Ten would want to do assuming that the University of Texas is off the table? Absolutely.

Frank, you're a welcome and informed guest poster who's provided insight without being preachy or haughty.

Here are my questions. How do you think Delany would respond if Slive/SEC released a statement (or leaked a rumor) to the effect that, if the B1G wanted to explore options on the South Atlantic coast, perhaps the SEC needed to look at the North Atlantic coast? Would Delany continue course or shift gears? Put any NC/GA/FL plans on hold while looking to shore up his recent northeast additions? If a battle were to be joined with the B1G fielding Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia, UNC, Georgia Tech and Florida State while the SEC fielded BC, UConn, Temple, VaTech, NC State, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida, who would likely dominate the Atlantic coast in 5 to 10 years? Do you think Delany would fight that battle?

 

[06029]

I live in Boston. Just as a matter of brand presence, you see far more UConn shirts, caps, etc than BC. UConn basketball far outdraws BC basketball in Boston. UConn football is probably competitive with BC football in terms of TV ratings.

And the BC brand doesn't extend much beyond Rte 128.

Uconn outdraws everyone in NYC. Uconn outdraws BC in Boston. Yet Uconn remains in the BE. Someone, somewhere show me the ratings that proves all of this. Because if it is true, then we are talking about the whole world being real stupid. Or maybe, just maybe, some people with access to ratings and who is watching what knows that this is not so. You know, like conference heads, TV networks. Maybe some of these schools outdraw Uconn on a national basis and maybe that is more important than anhyone on here considers.

Sorry but reality tells me that just because people on this board say stuff, like rodeo outdraws BC football (they never went head to head; it is the urban legend of all urban legends for this board), BC's ratings are worse than Uconn's in Boston, Rutgers doesn't matter to NYC, Uconn owns NYC college sports, does not make it true. If it were, this board would not exist.

 

[whaler11]

You really think UConn would blackball UMass? Really, if UMass were on par with UConn and wanted to join the BE, you think UConn would blackball them? I don't.

I can totally understand why Duke and UNC are flabbergasted.

Is UConn the Boneyard or are those different things?

 

[Dann]

@frankthetank remember that blog post u did at one point that had b10 expansion canidates with $ totals in value next to them? its linked all the time on CR boards when talking things over. on that u have rutgers with nyc and then cuse and uconn. then u also have a cuse one with nyc. u dont have a uconn one with nyc tho. how come? can u do that number for uconn and nyc? we are clearly on the rise overall and in nyc. were only 10 years old and already catching or passing other schools around the area. i am interested in that number. maybe a update to that post u did a while back with uconn changed and schools like mizzu not on it after they got passed on. add in a uva/unc and so on. would be cool to see a updated post since things have changed...

 

[Chuck]

Perception is reality. We are the most respected program that no key wants. We'e Brady Quinn sitting at the draft and trying not to look upset when evryone gets picked over hs.

Every program says "UConn? Great measurables. Somebody will take them. Oh, us? No, we're looking for (fill in the blank with "better football, more football history, more TV sets, AAU membership, better looking chicks...").

Hopefully somebody will in its us to the prom.

 

[Fishy]

UConn basketball > Florida State football.

Their football program is a bright shiny lie - wake me up the next time the real big dogs lose any sleep about Florida State up and winning a title. Ain't happening.

So everyone everywhere can just go duck* off about those hayseeds.

 

[CTEagle]

Maybe this will clear up Uconn and conference realignment for you guys....

 

[Dann]

Maybe this will clear up Uconn and conference realignment for you guys....

link

 

[Dry Tortugas]

"Yes, it's the great hair of Oscar Gamble. Go White Sox!"

Every time I think of Oscar Gamble, I think of the time he said "They don't think it be like it is, but it do".

 

[upstater]

Is UConn the Boneyard or are those different things?

By UConn I mean us. No, I don't think we'd be in favor of blackballing them.

 

[upstater]

Uconn outdraws everyone in NYC. Uconn outdraws BC in Boston. Yet Uconn remains in the BE. Someone, somewhere show me the ratings that proves all of this. Because if it is true, then we are talking about the whole world being real stupid. Or maybe, just maybe, some people with access to ratings and who is watching what knows that this is not so. You know, like conference heads, TV networks. Maybe some of these schools outdraw Uconn on a national basis and maybe that is more important than anhyone on here considers.

Sorry but reality tells me that just because people on this board say stuff, like rodeo outdraws BC football (they never went head to head; it is the urban legend of all urban legends for this board), BC's ratings are worse than Uconn's in Boston, Rutgers doesn't matter to NYC, Uconn owns NYC college sports, does not make it true. If it were, this board would not exist.

Rodeo outdraws BC!! Not an urban legend.

 

[whaler11]

By UConn I mean us. No, I don't think we'd be in favor of blackballing them.

Well there are dozens upon hundreds of posts that clearly state Boneyard posters don't feel UMass is worthy of competing against UConn and UMass should not be given an opportunity to compete. It's hard to believe you missed those.

 

[upstater]

Well there are dozens upon hundreds of posts that clearly state Boneyard posters don't feel UMass is worthy of competing against UConn and UMass should not be given an opportunity to compete. It's hard to believe you missed those.

Umass now! Read my post again. UConn sports compared to BC is not equivalent to UMass sports compared to UConn. If Umass bball were on UConn's level, it would be a credit for UConn to add them to its conference.

 

[whaler11]

Umass now! Read my post again. UConn sports compared to BC is not equivalent to UMass sports compared to UConn. If Umass bball were on UConn's level, it would be a credit for UConn to add them to its conference.

Buddy I'm pretty sure you have read no one's posts in this thread. You should go back and attempt to make some sense of things, because you are making zero sense.

 

[upstater]

Buddy I'm pretty sure you have read no one's posts in this thread. You should go back and attempt to make some sense of things, because you are making zero sense.

Can't make it any simpler than I did. I don't want UMass because they add nothing. BC doesn't want UConn because it adds nothing? No. Big difference.

 

[whaler11]

Can't make it any simpler than I did. I don't want UMass because they add nothing. BC doesn't want UConn because it adds nothing? No. Big difference.

You are the living embodiment of Frank's point about local rivalries.

 

[whaler11]

Upstater you don't need to be on par with UConn to join the Big East. This is a league with Tulane and East Carolina.

 

[whaler11]

The "it's better to create a regional rivalry" argument is always one that's advanced by the school that's left out and is then freely ignored by the school in the better position.

Can you focus on one sentence? This is the Boneyard summed up in less than 35 words.

 

[frankthetank]

@frankthetank remember that blog post u did at one point that had b10 expansion canidates with $ totals in value next to them? its linked all the time on CR boards when talking things over. on that u have rutgers with nyc and then cuse and uconn. then u also have a cuse one with nyc. u dont have a uconn one with nyc tho. how come? can u do that number for uconn and nyc? we are clearly on the rise overall and in nyc. were only 10 years old and already catching or passing other schools around the area. i am interested in that number. maybe a update to that post u did a while back with uconn changed and schools like mizzu not on it after they got passed on. add in a uva/unc and so on. would be cool to see a updated post since things have changed...

That's an interesting thought. I may have the TV industry person that ran those numbers do an updated version soon. My guess is that UConn would end up with something close to Syracuse's number when including NYC. From what I recall, the assumption for was that they'd deliver Upstate New York and get "partial credit" for the NYC market. It would like be similar for UConn, where they'd get full credit for the state of Connecticut and partial credit for the NYC market.

 

[Dann]

That's an interesting thought. I may have the TV industry person that ran those numbers do an updated version soon. My guess is that UConn would end up with something close to Syracuse's number when including NYC. From what I recall, the assumption for was that they'd deliver Upstate New York and get "partial credit" for the NYC market. It would like be similar for UConn, where they'd get full credit for the state of Connecticut and partial credit for the NYC market.

u should also factor in that we carry springfield and worcester. those 2 markets are quickly falling in love with uconn. they are giving us bball and baseball and fball players yearly now recruiting wise. really quietly becoming just uconn strong areas. umass is having real trouble with that from the other sports and just students applying and accepting because of uconn aspect...i think if u factored uconn into nyc and check the 3's u will really be surprised.

 

[HuskyHawk]

That's an interesting thought. I may have the TV industry person that ran those numbers do an updated version soon. My guess is that UConn would end up with something close to Syracuse's number when including NYC. From what I recall, the assumption for was that they'd deliver Upstate New York and get "partial credit" for the NYC market. It would like be similar for UConn, where they'd get full credit for the state of Connecticut and partial credit for the NYC market.

I think the perception of UConn is hurt by the fact that people ignore Connecticut as a state. To the rest of the country, New England is a state and Boston is the capital and only major city.

If you tried to convince most people that Hartford-New Haven was a bigger TV market than Vegas, Columbus, KC, San Antonio, Memphis, Cinncinnati, Milwaukee, OKC, Austin, Jacksonville and on and on, they'd think you were nuts. But it is. And it omits Fairfield county. UConn is even strong in central Mass/Worcester and in RI. Basketball gets press in Boston.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/09/10/nielsen-local-television-market-universe-estimates/5037/

I'm sure the folks at Bama don't believe that Hartford-NH is much bigger than Birmingham plus Tuscaloosa

Louisville is barely a blip by comparison. Perception is what we battle more than anything. Even the perception that UConn football stinks.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[frankthetank]

Frank, you're a welcome and informed guest poster who's provided insight without being preachy or haughty.

Here are my questions. How do you think Delany would respond if Slive/SEC released a statement (or leaked a rumor) to the effect that, if the B1G wanted to explore options on the South Atlantic coast, perhaps the SEC needed to look at the North Atlantic coast? Would Delany continue course or shift gears? Put any NC/GA/FL plans on hold while looking to shore up his recent northeast additions? If a battle were to be joined with the B1G fielding Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia, UNC, Georgia Tech and Florida State while the SEC fielded BC, UConn, Temple, VaTech, NC State, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida, who would likely dominate the Atlantic coast in 5 to 10 years? Do you think Delany would fight that battle?

I honestly don't think that Delany would care whatsoever. This is a conference that had Missouri (an geographically contiguous AAU school with a large population base, 2 major TV markets, cultural fit and built-in rivals) begging to get in and just let the SEC walk away with them. Taking Missouri was much more of an encroachment on Big Ten territory than any of the schools that you've mentioned above... and the Big Ten didn't give a crap because their plan has a grander vision of expansion. The only school that you've listed there that Delany would likely care about the SEC taking is Virginia Tech since that would encroach upon the Big Ten's ability to lock down the DC market, but the ACC already effectively has the demographic slate that you've listed, anyway (so it's merely a shift of schools and markets that the Big Ten doesn't have from the ACC to the SEC). The fastest growth is in the Mid-Atlantic down to Florida - this goes for TV markets, overall population and football recruits. There's MUCH more risk for the Big Ten over the next decade or two (or even now when you look at recruiting rankings) to not be in the South than for the SEC to not be in the North. The SEC as of today already combines the states of Florida, Georgia and Texas, which is why National Signing Day has turned into as much of an SEC circle jerk event as the National Championship Game. The last thing that the Big Ten is worried about is the SEC heading North - the Big Ten is the one that *needs* to head South.

This isn't something that just came up in the past few months since the Big Ten took Maryland. Back in 2010 before the Big Ten added Nebraska and was still at 11 schools, Delany's presentation to the ADs about expansion focused on the South with schools such as Georgia Tech and Virginia specifically mentioned. I have little doubt that this is what the Big Ten *wants* to do (unless Notre Dame just drops from the sky). Whether the Big Ten is *able* to do it is another matter.

 

[frankthetank]

UConn basketball > Florida State football.

Their football program is a bright shiny lie - wake me up the next time the real big dogs lose any sleep about Florida State up and winning a title. Ain't happening.

So everyone everywhere can just go duck* off about those hayseeds.

???

In Vegas, I guess you can make a colorable argument to wager on UConn basketball being more successful in the future than FSU football if you're speaking about long-term competitiveness.

In the world of conference realignment, though, FSU football is UNBELIEVABLY powerful. If you're talking about pure money, they are the single most valuable addition that the Big Ten could possibly have outside of adding Texas (not happening) or Florida (ditto). It's not even close. FSU football delivers the entire state of Florida on its own, it can do it at a maximum rate for the purposes of the BTN, and it would drive up the new national TV contract for the Big Ten to be negotiated in the next couple of years. It would be the same situation for the Big 12. We can talk about a lot of different factors here, but the money factor clearly favors FSU more than anyone else, and that alone means that they are going to be a major player (if not THE major player) in realignment going forward.

 

[upstater]

Upstater you don't need to be on par with UConn to join the Big East. This is a league with Tulane and East Carolina.

UMass did not cross the 50 yard lane. East Carolina has wins over NC State, West Virginia, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Boise St. in recent years.

 

[Dann]

UMass did not cross the 50 yard lane. East Carolina has wins over NC State, West Virginia, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Boise St. in recent years.

umass is the color red, our HC likes that color. ecu is purple, i dont know.