OT: MVP- Judge or Raleigh?

[Husky25]

I would assume the backup catchers are not catching the aces and they’re catching the 4/5 starters to give Raleigh a day off.

That's not necessarily always the case. Javy Lopez was the regular starting catcher for the Braves during their 90's-2000s run, but Eddie Perez was Maddux "personal catcher." Garver has started 42 games at catcher and has caught Woo (8) and Castillo (9), the Mariners' two best statistical starting pitchers, the most frequently.

Judge, other than HR and RBI, is having the better statistical offensive season. Judge has also D.H.'ed 56 games and played under 800 innings in rightfield. Roughly half at Yankee Stadium. Be that as it may, Advantage: Judge.

Cal Raleigh has played over 1,060 innings (120 games) at the most taxing position in the field. Raleigh also has an outside shot at picking up a third straight Gold Glove. Advantage: Raleigh.

The predicted over/unders in March were 89.5 (1st ALE) and 84.5 (3rd ALW) for the Yankees and Mariners, respectively. Actual win totals with 3 games to go are 91 (T-1st) and 90 (1st), respectively.

Irrespective of players being named MVP on last place clubs in the past, Cal Raleigh appears to be more valuable to his team and the player for whom I'd vote if given the opportunity.

 

[dennismenace]

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

On this matter we are stating a fact (not arguing) that he is penalized more than anyone in either league because of his size
and not swinging at pitches which are outside of his strike zone. That is a scientific fact and not a matter of debate. The point of this is that he alone is handicapped more than anyone else on this matter and it has a negative impact when it comes to balls and strikes which will ultimately affect his statistics. How much we do not know but it surely has an impact meaning he would benefit if they were called correctly. As noted above he will be the primary beneficiary when the rule changes next year.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

i agree that his stature has been mostly an advantage. @dennismenace is right about the science of the called strikes but there is also the physics of body mass and power generation.
Also, the strike zone may be an issue but on the flip side it must be intimidating to step on the mound and see that giant waiting on the other end of 60'6"

Sean Manaea is a big dude and I remember hearing him tell a story about the first time he faced judge. He was in disbelief

 

[jibsey]

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

Disadvantage. Why? Large strike zone. And on top of that his high kneecaps are a further disadvantage. With the same AB’s Judge would be even or near on homers and RBI’s.
How does being large help his batting average? If you’re big your timing and coordination is better?

 

[nomar]

Well if (when) he does win the batting title this season he will be the tallest player ever to win it. It wasn't until the 1970's that someone taller than 6'4" (Dave Parker @ 6'5") won the title and there have only been a handful of tall ball players historically who won batting titles (Ted Williams, John Olerud, Frank Thomas are the only others taller than 6"1" or so).

BA is a "specific thing." OPS takes that into account, along with the ability to get on base and hit for power.

In any event, he's a freak, having a freak season, and he'd have my vote.

 

[nomar]

Disadvantage. Why? Large strike zone. And on top of that his high kneecaps are a further disadvantage. With the same AB’s Judge would be even or near on homers and RBI’s.
How does being large help his batting average? If you’re big your timing and coordination is better?

You think if Aaron Judge was 6'1" 220 he'd have put up the stats he's put up over his career?

 

[nomar]

On this matter we are stating a fact (not arguing) that he is penalized more than anyone in either league because of his size
and not swinging at pitches which are outside of his strike zone. That is a scientific fact and not a matter of debate. The point of this is that he alone is handicapped more than anyone else on this matter and it has a negative impact when it comes to balls and strikes which will ultimately affect his statistics. How much we do not know but it surely has an impact meaning he would benefit if they were called correctly. As noted above he will be the primary beneficiary when the rule changes next year.

If you're going to posit one thing is a fact, then I expect you'll concede that @Jaydumo20 has posited another.

Note that I never denied he gets penalized. What I said was it doesn't outweigh the power advantage his size gives him.

I truly can't believe people are debating with me whether him being John Henry (the legend, not the guy who traded Mookie Betts) has made his career tough.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Disadvantage. Why? Large strike zone. And on top of that his high kneecaps are a further disadvantage. With the same AB’s Judge would be even or near on homers and RBI’s.
How does being large help his batting average? If you’re big your timing and coordination is better?

You are 100% right about the zone. As for avg. your statement points to an idea that smaller players have better timing and coordination. Although being taller may not help Judge with timing it clearly hasn't hurt him. His B.A. numbers are legendary.
Judge's timing is better than the majority of the league and the majority of the league are shorter than him.
He does strike out a ton but we can't only blame his height for that.

We CAN claim by math that his size is directly proportional to his power #'s. And his consistent power #'s are a main reason why he's the best player in the league every year.

 

[nomar]

Well if (when) he does win the batting title this season he will be the tallest player ever to win it. It wasn't until the 1970's that someone taller than 6'4" (Dave Parker @ 6'5") won the title and there have only been a handful of tall ball players historically who won batting titles (Ted Williams, John Olerud, Frank Thomas are the only others taller than 6"1" or so).

The percentage of men over 6'4" is small. Then consider whether tall athletes gravitate towards baseball and, if they do, whether they are steered towards the pitchers' mound.

Plenty of tall guys have had great success hitting. Stanton's one guy on Judge's own team who had some monster seasons.

 

[Scoe]

The reality is that Judge is the mvp but the perception is that Raleigh is the mvp. Perception will trump reality, the 60 hrs especially as a catcher will stand out so much to so therefore no one is gonna wanna hear the Judge angle to it and the fact he won the last 2 MVPs.

 

[Dooch]

Judge does have twice the payroll around him, not that it’s massively indicative of value.

I am by no means anti Judge on this and honestly do tilt to him being deserving, but keeping an open mind to Dumper given this award is not totally one size fits all as value can be seen many ways.

Twice the payroll, yet he broke the AL IBB walk record b/c they'd rather face anyone else. JRod would be the Yankees 2nd best player if he played for them....

 

[superjohn]

The home run total from Raleigh is historic for a catcher and historic for any player but it's wild people are saying he's having the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. Piazza hit .362, 40 homers, 124 rbi, 201 hits, only 77 strikeouts, 8.7 WAR, 1.070 OPS and he lost the MVP to Larry Walker who had even better numbers than him, despite the Dodgers finishing 5 games ahead of the Rockies. That's how it's supposed to work, when you're head and shoulders ahead of everyone else you get the award.

Judge's #'s are so much better than anyone else in baseball this season, it's pretty silly this is even a debate.

 

[Scoe]

The home run total from Raleigh is historic for a catcher and historic for any player but it's wild people are saying he's having the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. Piazza hit .362, 40 homers, 124 rbi, 201 hits, only 77 strikeouts, 8.7 WAR, 1.070 OPS and he lost the MVP to Larry Walker who had even better numbers than him, despite the Dodgers finishing 5 games ahead of the Rockies. That's how it's supposed to work, when you're head and shoulders ahead of everyone else you get the award.

Judge's #'s are so much better than anyone else in baseball this season, it's pretty silly this is even a debate.

It shouldn’t be a debate but you already know the writers will bring up the 60 hrs for a catcher as a convenient excuse to not give Judge a 3rd mvp in a row.

Judge will get the same treatment from the writers that Jokic and Jordan got after winning back to back MVPs.

 

[jibsey]

MLB awards 2025: MVP and LVP, Cy Young and Cy Yuk, top rookies, managers of the year

I look forward to this column every year. You look forward to disagreeing with every word of this column every year. Now, to the awards!

www.nytimes.com

 

[FfldCntyFan]

The percentage of men over 6'4" is small. Then consider whether tall athletes gravitate towards baseball and, if they do, whether they are steered towards the pitchers' mound.

Plenty of tall guys have had great success hitting. Stanton's one guy on Judge's own team who had some monster seasons.

There have been quite a few tall baseball players over the years and many have shown very good power numbers (I can go as far back as 6'5" Hank Greenberg who started his MLB career during the depression).

There haven't been many who hit for average at the top of their league however because they obviously have larger strike zones to cover and normally have longer swings.

Ted Williams was the one exception, a very tall (6'4") player who regularly was at or near the top of the league in batting average. The rest would normally have a number of years further down in the pack and occasionally a stray year or two close to the top.

 

[nomar]

There have been quite a few tall baseball players over the years and many have shown very good power numbers (I can go as far back as 6'5" Hank Greenberg who started his MLB career during the depression).

There haven't been many who hit for average at the top of their league however because they obviously have larger strike zones to cover and normally have longer swings.

Ted Williams was the one exception, a very tall (6'4") player who regularly was at or near the top of the league in batting average. The rest would normally have a number of years further down in the pack and occasionally a stray year or two close to the top.

I think I've been consistent in this thread in saying that BA is just one metric to be considered. If BA was all that important, than Cal Raleigh wouldn't be in the top-20 in the MVP race.

My point was that Judge's size has overall been an asset, as it was too Hank Greenberg. His increased power makes up for the large strike zone and poor strike calls.

So I don't think we're disagreeing here.

 

[SubbaBub]

1. With the game, season, World Series on the line which would you rather have at bat.

2. Same question as above, if you had to sit one of them, who's playing.

The answer is the same if you look at the metrics. Only the reality TV, soap opera losers would pick the other guy.

 

[controlfade]

Judge does have twice the payroll around him, not that it’s massively indicative of value.

I am by no means anti Judge on this and honestly do tilt to him being deserving, but keeping an open mind to Dumper given this award is not totally one size fits all as value can be seen many ways.

Not sure what the payroll has to do with who is more valuable? As I stated before, when Judge was banged up and missed time, the Yankees were dismal and lost the division lead.
Not to mention, Judge is now the 4th player with 4 - 50 HR season and 2 of those were steroid dudes. So, it Judge and Ruth.
Judge also is the only player ever to lead the league in BA, hit 50hr and draw 120 walks

 

[dennismenace]

You are 100% right about the zone. As for avg. your statement points to an idea that smaller players have better timing and coordination. Although being taller may not help Judge with timing it clearly hasn't hurt him. His B.A. numbers are legendary.
Judge's timing is better than the majority of the league and the majority of the league are shorter than him.
He does strike out a ton but we can't only blame his height for that.

We CAN claim by math that his size is directly proportional to his power #'s. And his consistent power #'s are a main reason why he's the best player in the league every year.

Well said. The other day it was pointed out by Yankee announcers that he is only the fourth hitter in baseball history to hit 50 or more homeruns in a season. The others? McGuire, Sosa and Babe Ruth. Since McGuire and Sosa used PED's that leaves Judge in the company of Ruth alone. What impresses me most about Judge is his dedication to continuing to try to improve himself and his dedication to his team and teammates. I think his unselfish motivation will continue to enhance his performance if he can stay healthy.

One of the interesting things about power hitting as measured by homeruns is that guys like Aaron and Ernie Banks as well as Soriano were under 200 lbs and on the slim side but they had the bat speed by fast hands and wrists. Aaron and Banks were listed at 180 lbs and Soriano 195.

 

[dennismenace]

There have been quite a few tall baseball players over the years and many have shown very good power numbers (I can go as far back as 6'5" Hank Greenberg who started his MLB career during the depression).

There haven't been many who hit for average at the top of their league however because they obviously have larger strike zones to cover and normally have longer swings.

Ted Williams was the one exception, a very tall (6'4") player who regularly was at or near the top of the league in batting average. The rest would normally have a number of years further down in the pack and occasionally a stray year or two close to the top.

Williams was astonishing as a hitter. He also missed 5 seasons in his prime as a marine fighter pilot. His strikeout average over his career:

"Ted Williams had an average of approximately 51.3 strikeouts per season across his career, with 709 total strikeouts in 1947 games played over 19 seasons. His season with the fewest strikeouts was 1941, when he had just 27, while other seasons saw higher numbers, such as 77 in 1941 and his 134 in 1950".

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Williams was astonishing as a hitter. He also missed 5 seasons in his prime as a marine fighter pilot. His strikeout average over his career:

"Ted Williams had an average of approximately 51.3 strikeouts per season across his career, with 709 total strikeouts in 1947 games played over 19 seasons. His season with the fewest strikeouts was 1941, when he had just 27, while other seasons saw higher numbers, such as 77 in 1941 and his 134 in 1950".

Williams was incredible (sadly I wasn't born until shortly after his last game so I only saw film on him).

I still contend that if he played late 1970's - mid 1980's with turf fields in most ballparks and the lower mound, he would have hit over. 400 a number of times and would have made a run at .450 at least once.

 

[billythekid]

 

[jibsey]

Williams was astonishing as a hitter. He also missed 5 seasons in his prime as a marine fighter pilot. His strikeout average over his career:

"Ted Williams had an average of approximately 51.3 strikeouts per season across his career, with 709 total strikeouts in 1947 games played over 19 seasons. His season with the fewest strikeouts was 1941, when he had just 27, while other seasons saw higher numbers, such as 77 in 1941 and his 134 in 1950".

Yogi Berra had 414 strikeouts over his entire 19 year career. he actually averaged 21 per season. I didn’t realize Ted struck out so much.

 

[RuffRuff]

Yogi Berra had 414 strikeouts over his entire 19 year career. he actually averaged 21 per season. I didn’t realize Ted struck out so much.

Yeah Yogi had the secret mental formula to baseball, he knew it was 75% mental and 50% physical.

 

[ihatepants]

Raleigh hasnt even been his own team’s best player for more than half the season. No way does he deserve MVP over Judge.

 

[dennismenace]

Yogi Berra had 414 strikeouts over his entire 19 year career. he actually averaged 21 per season. I didn’t realize Ted struck out so much.

And he was famous for being a "bad ball hitter" (out of the strikezone hacks). I recall as a child seeing him golf low inside pitches over the rightfield fence and tomahawking high in the strike zone pitches. My favorite Yogi quote "you can't think and hit at the same time"

 

[dennismenace]

Williams was incredible (sadly I wasn't born until shortly after his last game so I only saw film on him).

I still contend that if he played late 1970's - mid 1980's with turf fields in most ballparks and the lower mound, he would have hit over. 400 a number of times and would have made a run at .450 at least once.

He was one of the few players who faced the shift in his time and refused to deliberately hit to the wrong field. He's just smash line drives through it or over it.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Well said. The other day it was pointed out by Yankee announcers that he is only the fourth hitter in baseball history to hit 50 or more homeruns in a season. The others? McGuire, Sosa and Babe Ruth. Since McGuire and Sosa used PED's that leaves Judge in the company of Ruth alone. What impresses me most about Judge is his dedication to continuing to try to improve himself and his dedication to his team and teammates. I think his unselfish motivation will continue to enhance his performance if he can stay healthy.

One of the interesting things about power hitting as measured by homeruns is that guys like Aaron and Ernie Banks as well as Soriano were under 200 lbs and on the slim side but they had the bat speed by fast hands and wrists. Aaron and Banks were listed at 180 lbs and Soriano 195.

100% there were guys who had an ability to generate enormous amounts of power from no mass. What i claimed was scientific but it doesnt mean it's right. There are 110lb martial arts experts who can summon massive force that no observable formula can explain. Sports has that too. IMO, Iricho was a wizard. An actual pointy hat with stars on it, wizard.

 

[superjohn]

Judge should easily have the MVP locked up. What an incredible season for George Springer, he should be third in MVP voting. He carried the Blue Jays the last few months.

 

[jibsey]

Judge ended at .331, I don’t have a clue which one will win it.