OT: - MVP- Judge or Raleigh? | Page 5 | The Boneyard

OT: MVP- Judge or Raleigh?

RuffRuff said:
Judge does have twice the payroll around him, not that it’s massively indicative of value.

I am by no means anti Judge on this and honestly do tilt to him being deserving, but keeping an open mind to Dumper given this award is not totally one size fits all as value can be seen many ways.
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Twice the payroll, yet he broke the AL IBB walk record b/c they'd rather face anyone else. JRod would be the Yankees 2nd best player if he played for them....
 
The home run total from Raleigh is historic for a catcher and historic for any player but it's wild people are saying he's having the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. Piazza hit .362, 40 homers, 124 rbi, 201 hits, only 77 strikeouts, 8.7 WAR, 1.070 OPS and he lost the MVP to Larry Walker who had even better numbers than him, despite the Dodgers finishing 5 games ahead of the Rockies. That's how it's supposed to work, when you're head and shoulders ahead of everyone else you get the award.

Judge's #'s are so much better than anyone else in baseball this season, it's pretty silly this is even a debate.
 
superjohn said:
The home run total from Raleigh is historic for a catcher and historic for any player but it's wild people are saying he's having the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. Piazza hit .362, 40 homers, 124 rbi, 201 hits, only 77 strikeouts, 8.7 WAR, 1.070 OPS and he lost the MVP to Larry Walker who had even better numbers than him, despite the Dodgers finishing 5 games ahead of the Rockies. That's how it's supposed to work, when you're head and shoulders ahead of everyone else you get the award.

Judge's #'s are so much better than anyone else in baseball this season, it's pretty silly this is even a debate.
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It shouldn’t be a debate but you already know the writers will bring up the 60 hrs for a catcher as a convenient excuse to not give Judge a 3rd mvp in a row.

Judge will get the same treatment from the writers that Jokic and Jordan got after winning back to back MVPs.
 
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nomar said:
The percentage of men over 6'4" is small. Then consider whether tall athletes gravitate towards baseball and, if they do, whether they are steered towards the pitchers' mound.

Plenty of tall guys have had great success hitting. Stanton's one guy on Judge's own team who had some monster seasons.
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There have been quite a few tall baseball players over the years and many have shown very good power numbers (I can go as far back as 6'5" Hank Greenberg who started his MLB career during the depression).

There haven't been many who hit for average at the top of their league however because they obviously have larger strike zones to cover and normally have longer swings.

Ted Williams was the one exception, a very tall (6'4") player who regularly was at or near the top of the league in batting average. The rest would normally have a number of years further down in the pack and occasionally a stray year or two close to the top.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
There have been quite a few tall baseball players over the years and many have shown very good power numbers (I can go as far back as 6'5" Hank Greenberg who started his MLB career during the depression).

There haven't been many who hit for average at the top of their league however because they obviously have larger strike zones to cover and normally have longer swings.

Ted Williams was the one exception, a very tall (6'4") player who regularly was at or near the top of the league in batting average. The rest would normally have a number of years further down in the pack and occasionally a stray year or two close to the top.
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I think I've been consistent in this thread in saying that BA is just one metric to be considered. If BA was all that important, than Cal Raleigh wouldn't be in the top-20 in the MVP race.

My point was that Judge's size has overall been an asset, as it was too Hank Greenberg. His increased power makes up for the large strike zone and poor strike calls.

So I don't think we're disagreeing here.
 
1. With the game, season, World Series on the line which would you rather have at bat.

2. Same question as above, if you had to sit one of them, who's playing.

The answer is the same if you look at the metrics. Only the reality TV, soap opera losers would pick the other guy.
 
RuffRuff said:
Judge does have twice the payroll around him, not that it’s massively indicative of value.

I am by no means anti Judge on this and honestly do tilt to him being deserving, but keeping an open mind to Dumper given this award is not totally one size fits all as value can be seen many ways.
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Not sure what the payroll has to do with who is more valuable? As I stated before, when Judge was banged up and missed time, the Yankees were dismal and lost the division lead.
Not to mention, Judge is now the 4th player with 4 - 50 HR season and 2 of those were steroid dudes. So, it Judge and Ruth.
Judge also is the only player ever to lead the league in BA, hit 50hr and draw 120 walks
 

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Jaydumo20 said:
You are 100% right about the zone. As for avg. your statement points to an idea that smaller players have better timing and coordination. Although being taller may not help Judge with timing it clearly hasn't hurt him. His B.A. numbers are legendary.
Judge's timing is better than the majority of the league and the majority of the league are shorter than him.
He does strike out a ton but we can't only blame his height for that.

We CAN claim by math that his size is directly proportional to his power #'s. And his consistent power #'s are a main reason why he's the best player in the league every year.
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Well said. The other day it was pointed out by Yankee announcers that he is only the fourth hitter in baseball history to hit 50 or more homeruns in a season. The others? McGuire, Sosa and Babe Ruth. Since McGuire and Sosa used PED's that leaves Judge in the company of Ruth alone. What impresses me most about Judge is his dedication to continuing to try to improve himself and his dedication to his team and teammates. I think his unselfish motivation will continue to enhance his performance if he can stay healthy.

One of the interesting things about power hitting as measured by homeruns is that guys like Aaron and Ernie Banks as well as Soriano were under 200 lbs and on the slim side but they had the bat speed by fast hands and wrists. Aaron and Banks were listed at 180 lbs and Soriano 195.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
There have been quite a few tall baseball players over the years and many have shown very good power numbers (I can go as far back as 6'5" Hank Greenberg who started his MLB career during the depression).

There haven't been many who hit for average at the top of their league however because they obviously have larger strike zones to cover and normally have longer swings.

Ted Williams was the one exception, a very tall (6'4") player who regularly was at or near the top of the league in batting average. The rest would normally have a number of years further down in the pack and occasionally a stray year or two close to the top.
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Williams was astonishing as a hitter. He also missed 5 seasons in his prime as a marine fighter pilot. His strikeout average over his career:

"Ted Williams had an average of approximately 51.3 strikeouts per season across his career, with 709 total strikeouts in 1947 games played over 19 seasons. His season with the fewest strikeouts was 1941, when he had just 27, while other seasons saw higher numbers, such as 77 in 1941 and his 134 in 1950".
 
dennismenace said:
Williams was astonishing as a hitter. He also missed 5 seasons in his prime as a marine fighter pilot. His strikeout average over his career:

"Ted Williams had an average of approximately 51.3 strikeouts per season across his career, with 709 total strikeouts in 1947 games played over 19 seasons. His season with the fewest strikeouts was 1941, when he had just 27, while other seasons saw higher numbers, such as 77 in 1941 and his 134 in 1950".
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Williams was incredible (sadly I wasn't born until shortly after his last game so I only saw film on him).

I still contend that if he played late 1970's - mid 1980's with turf fields in most ballparks and the lower mound, he would have hit over. 400 a number of times and would have made a run at .450 at least once.
 
dennismenace said:
Williams was astonishing as a hitter. He also missed 5 seasons in his prime as a marine fighter pilot. His strikeout average over his career:

"Ted Williams had an average of approximately 51.3 strikeouts per season across his career, with 709 total strikeouts in 1947 games played over 19 seasons. His season with the fewest strikeouts was 1941, when he had just 27, while other seasons saw higher numbers, such as 77 in 1941 and his 134 in 1950".
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Yogi Berra had 414 strikeouts over his entire 19 year career. he actually averaged 21 per season. I didn’t realize Ted struck out so much.
 
jibsey said:
Yogi Berra had 414 strikeouts over his entire 19 year career. he actually averaged 21 per season. I didn’t realize Ted struck out so much.
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Yeah Yogi had the secret mental formula to baseball, he knew it was 75% mental and 50% physical.
 
Raleigh hasnt even been his own team’s best player for more than half the season. No way does he deserve MVP over Judge.

 
jibsey said:
Yogi Berra had 414 strikeouts over his entire 19 year career. he actually averaged 21 per season. I didn’t realize Ted struck out so much.
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And he was famous for being a "bad ball hitter" (out of the strikezone hacks). I recall as a child seeing him golf low inside pitches over the rightfield fence and tomahawking high in the strike zone pitches. My favorite Yogi quote "you can't think and hit at the same time"
 
FfldCntyFan said:
Williams was incredible (sadly I wasn't born until shortly after his last game so I only saw film on him).

I still contend that if he played late 1970's - mid 1980's with turf fields in most ballparks and the lower mound, he would have hit over. 400 a number of times and would have made a run at .450 at least once.
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He was one of the few players who faced the shift in his time and refused to deliberately hit to the wrong field. He's just smash line drives through it or over it.
 
dennismenace said:
Well said. The other day it was pointed out by Yankee announcers that he is only the fourth hitter in baseball history to hit 50 or more homeruns in a season. The others? McGuire, Sosa and Babe Ruth. Since McGuire and Sosa used PED's that leaves Judge in the company of Ruth alone. What impresses me most about Judge is his dedication to continuing to try to improve himself and his dedication to his team and teammates. I think his unselfish motivation will continue to enhance his performance if he can stay healthy.

One of the interesting things about power hitting as measured by homeruns is that guys like Aaron and Ernie Banks as well as Soriano were under 200 lbs and on the slim side but they had the bat speed by fast hands and wrists. Aaron and Banks were listed at 180 lbs and Soriano 195.
Expand ...
100% there were guys who had an ability to generate enormous amounts of power from no mass. What i claimed was scientific but it doesnt mean it's right. There are 110lb martial arts experts who can summon massive force that no observable formula can explain. Sports has that too. IMO, Iricho was a wizard. An actual pointy hat with stars on it, wizard.
 
Judge should easily have the MVP locked up. What an incredible season for George Springer, he should be third in MVP voting. He carried the Blue Jays the last few months.

 
RuffRuff said:
Cal kinda flamed out in the last weekend (like the Mets). My sense is the voters cannot ignore the dominance of Judges stats.
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they def can, as i said previously, in no way is Judge not the MVP. However, he very well could not win for the same reasons Jordan only has 5 or that Lamar did not win last year. Voters for some reason have this ridiculous idea that they cant vote for the same guy year after year regardless if they deserve it.
 
I lean to Judge as well, but the writers have a history of rewarding "historic" achievements.

If Raleigh were to win, I think it's wrong but it's not a robbery along the lines of 1995 or 1941.
 
superjohn said:
Judge should easily have the MVP locked up. What an incredible season for George Springer, he should be third in MVP voting. He carried the Blue Jays the last few months.

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Looked up some facts about George this season:



Key Factors in his 2025 Success
  • Adjusted Approach:
    Springer's new hitting coach, David Popkins, helped him adjust his approach to the game, which has reversed his previous decline.
  • Increased Hard Contact:
    He's hitting the ball harder and in the air more often, cutting down on weak contact and increasing his overall production.
  • Proving Doubters Wrong:
    His outstanding comeback season defied expectations, especially at age 35, showcasing his continued impact and value to the Blue Jays.
Astonishing what good coaching can do with raw talent and right motivation. You go George!
 

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