OT: MVP- Judge or Raleigh?

[dennismenace]

Last night Judge received his 35th intentional walk. Last time someone got a number that high was Ted Williams in
1955. Just about every season Judge leads the league in improper strikes called (as electronically measured). Well over 100 last year. Those who follow the Yankees know this has routinely gone on for years. This is based on pitches that are low (for him) are frequently called strikes due to the umps measuring by eye from ground off the plate instead of from above/below the knees due to his 6-7 height. This often translates to strikeouts vs walks or worse counts vs better counts to hit at. To also put him in perspective think also of someone like Walt Dropo (6-7) stealing bases and playing all outfield positions as a very good fielder as well.

I guess Raleigh, like Judge, could be one for the ages. I hope he continues to wreck havoc on the league because these guys will end up immortals and they are great for the game. And no PEDs!

 

[dennismenace]

I get that it’s cool, but that should have zero bearing on his value when talking about the MVP. Judge’s offensive numbers vs. both LHP and RHP are better than Cal’s from either side of the plate. Interestingly, Judge is also arguably has more consistent outcomes against LHP and RHP than Cal, despite not being a switch hitter.

Judge has learned over time to almost never swing at a pitch outside the strike zone. Plate coverage is extraordinary.

 

[nomar]

Great question. Ive often thought about this phenomenon and I've come to realize that it does matter. Stevie Wonder's music exists as it is but it has more depth knowing he is blind. Confederacy of Dunces reads differently when you know Toole's life story.
In this case, the numbers are static but his switch hitting ability adds an extra dimension.

If Stevie Wonder is more impressive because he doesn’t have the sense of sight, then isn’t Judge more impressive because he has to face right-handed pitching from the right side? OK, that’s not a fair analogy but neither is yours in terms of the MVP race. The question is, no matter what side of the late they’re hitting from, who’s better?

 

[Jaydumo20]

If Stevie Wonder is more impressive because he doesn’t have the sense of sight, then isn’t Judge more impressive because he has to face right-handed pitching from the right side? OK, that’s not a fair analogy but neither is yours in terms of the MVP race. The question is, no matter what side of the late they’re hitting from, who’s better?

I really dont think the switch hitting should be a factor in this case. It's not a strong enough variable, I agree. I was commenting on Dove's post why those things may matter and often matter to me.

We all know this is not an objective exercise though. MVP voting has no set criteria

In fairness and unfairness, Judge is a better player but Raleigh will probably win MVP.

 

[jibsey]

Last night Judge received his 35th intentional walk. Last time someone got a number that high was Ted Williams in
1955. Just about every season Judge leads the league in improper strikes called (as electronically measured). Well over 100 last year. Those who follow the Yankees know this has routinely gone on for years. This is based on pitches that are low (for him) are frequently called strikes due to the umps measuring by eye from ground off the plate instead of from above/below the knees due to his 6-7 height. This often translates to strikeouts vs walks or worse counts vs better counts to hit at. To also put him in perspective think also of someone like Walt Dropo (6-7) stealing bases and playing all outfield positions as a very good fielder as well.

I guess Raleigh, like Judge, could be one for the ages. I hope he continues to wreck havoc on the league because these guys will end up immortals and they are great for the game. And no PEDs!

Anyone who watches Judge understands the low pitch strikes and what a disadvantage that is has been….his entire career.

 

[Dooch]

Anyone who watches Judge understands the low pitch strikes and what a disadvantage that is has been….his entire career.

Next year it's going to be even harder to pitch to Judge with the ABS system coming - all these BS ball/strike calls on him will be reversed

 

[nomar]

Anyone who watches Judge understands the low pitch strikes and what a disadvantage that is has been….his entire career.

Anyone who watches Judge understands that he's 6'7"280 and what an advantage that it has been....his entire career.

He'd have my vote but let's not pretend him being a behemoth has made his career more difficult.

 

[jibsey]

Anyone who watches Judge understands that he's 6'7"280 and what an advantage that it has been....his entire career.

He'd have my vote but let's not pretend him being a behemoth has made his career more difficult.

A large power hitter has a BA advantage? He’s legging out hits? If the count is 0-1 and the ump calls a strike 4 inches below his knees going to O-2 the pitcher doesn’t have to throw another strike. This happens constantly to him.
Robotic balls/strikes could help him a lot.
Now, Raleigh is 6’3” 235 no small guy either.

 

[NickDanger]

Honest question because it has been brought up a lot, why does Cal bring a switch hitter come up in this conversation at all?

If he smoked a cigar while hitting, the same people would give him even more credit

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Both are having MVP seasons, so whoever wins it deserves this.

I’m a Yankees fan, so there’s inherent bias I can’t deny, but I feel weird if an MVP is batting .247 like Raleigh.

 

[nomar]

A large power hitter has a BA advantage? He’s legging out hits? If the count is 0-1 and the ump calls a strike 4 inches below his knees going to O-2 the pitcher doesn’t have to throw another strike. This happens constantly to him.
Robotic balls/strikes could help him a lot.
Now, Raleigh is 6’3” 235 no small guy either.

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Anyone who watches Judge understands that he's 6'7"280 and what an advantage that it has been....his entire career.

He'd have my vote but let's not pretend him being a behemoth has made his career more difficult.

Well if (when) he does win the batting title this season he will be the tallest player ever to win it. It wasn't until the 1970's that someone taller than 6'4" (Dave Parker @ 6'5") won the title and there have only been a handful of tall ball players historically who won batting titles (Ted Williams, John Olerud, Frank Thomas are the only others taller than 6"1" or so).

 

[superjohn]

Both are having MVP seasons, so whoever wins it deserves this.

I’m a Yankees fan, so there’s inherent bias I can’t deny, but I feel weird if an MVP is batting .247 like Raleigh.

Especially when he's batting 83 points below the other guy, he's 2 full points below in WAR, nearly 200 points below him in OPS. This shouldn't be a close race.

The players know this is a joke...

Aaron Judge’s AL MVP resume receiving players’ stamp of approval

Aaron Judge is having a strong season with the New YorkYankees, and most people are agreeing who the AL MVP is.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[controlfade]

Friends and I have been debating this one. If history dictates, no better year to take a look than 2012 when Buster Posey won it. He won over Ryan Braun, who outside of BA, had far better numbers in key categories. Posey won in a landslide, only giving a couple votes to Braun and......Yadier Molina, another catcher. I think the voters like to award catchers when possible. They're in every play, generally the captain of the field. Seattle is also going to win the West for the first time in about 25 years. Even though Judge has some titanic numbers and the better "offensive" player, Raleigh likely going to win it as the most "valuable" player.

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"Raleigh likely going to win it as the most "valuable" player."

in no world is Cal more valuable to his team than Judge, thats an idiotic statement

 

[RuffRuff]

"Raleigh likely going to win it as the most "valuable" player."

in no world is Cal more valuable to his team than Judge, thats an idiotic statement

Judge does have twice the payroll around him, not that it’s massively indicative of value.

I am by no means anti Judge on this and honestly do tilt to him being deserving, but keeping an open mind to Dumper given this award is not totally one size fits all as value can be seen many ways.

 

[Husky25]

I would assume the backup catchers are not catching the aces and they’re catching the 4/5 starters to give Raleigh a day off.

That's not necessarily always the case. Javy Lopez was the regular starting catcher for the Braves during their 90's-2000s run, but Eddie Perez was Maddux "personal catcher." Garver has started 42 games at catcher and has caught Woo (8) and Castillo (9), the Mariners' two best statistical starting pitchers, the most frequently.

Judge, other than HR and RBI, is having the better statistical offensive season. Judge has also D.H.'ed 56 games and played under 800 innings in rightfield. Roughly half at Yankee Stadium. Be that as it may, Advantage: Judge.

Cal Raleigh has played over 1,060 innings (120 games) at the most taxing position in the field. Raleigh also has an outside shot at picking up a third straight Gold Glove. Advantage: Raleigh.

The predicted over/unders in March were 89.5 (1st ALE) and 84.5 (3rd ALW) for the Yankees and Mariners, respectively. Actual win totals with 3 games to go are 91 (T-1st) and 90 (1st), respectively.

Irrespective of players being named MVP on last place clubs in the past, Cal Raleigh appears to be more valuable to his team and the player for whom I'd vote if given the opportunity.

 

[dennismenace]

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

On this matter we are stating a fact (not arguing) that he is penalized more than anyone in either league because of his size
and not swinging at pitches which are outside of his strike zone. That is a scientific fact and not a matter of debate. The point of this is that he alone is handicapped more than anyone else on this matter and it has a negative impact when it comes to balls and strikes which will ultimately affect his statistics. How much we do not know but it surely has an impact meaning he would benefit if they were called correctly. As noted above he will be the primary beneficiary when the rule changes next year.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

i agree that his stature has been mostly an advantage. @dennismenace is right about the science of the called strikes but there is also the physics of body mass and power generation.
Also, the strike zone may be an issue but on the flip side it must be intimidating to step on the mound and see that giant waiting on the other end of 60'6"

Sean Manaea is a big dude and I remember hearing him tell a story about the first time he faced judge. He was in disbelief

 

[jibsey]

Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.

Disadvantage. Why? Large strike zone. And on top of that his high kneecaps are a further disadvantage. With the same AB’s Judge would be even or near on homers and RBI’s.
How does being large help his batting average? If you’re big your timing and coordination is better?

 

[nomar]

Well if (when) he does win the batting title this season he will be the tallest player ever to win it. It wasn't until the 1970's that someone taller than 6'4" (Dave Parker @ 6'5") won the title and there have only been a handful of tall ball players historically who won batting titles (Ted Williams, John Olerud, Frank Thomas are the only others taller than 6"1" or so).

BA is a "specific thing." OPS takes that into account, along with the ability to get on base and hit for power.

In any event, he's a freak, having a freak season, and he'd have my vote.

 

[nomar]

Disadvantage. Why? Large strike zone. And on top of that his high kneecaps are a further disadvantage. With the same AB’s Judge would be even or near on homers and RBI’s.
How does being large help his batting average? If you’re big your timing and coordination is better?

You think if Aaron Judge was 6'1" 220 he'd have put up the stats he's put up over his career?

 

[nomar]

On this matter we are stating a fact (not arguing) that he is penalized more than anyone in either league because of his size
and not swinging at pitches which are outside of his strike zone. That is a scientific fact and not a matter of debate. The point of this is that he alone is handicapped more than anyone else on this matter and it has a negative impact when it comes to balls and strikes which will ultimately affect his statistics. How much we do not know but it surely has an impact meaning he would benefit if they were called correctly. As noted above he will be the primary beneficiary when the rule changes next year.

If you're going to posit one thing is a fact, then I expect you'll concede that @Jaydumo20 has posited another.

Note that I never denied he gets penalized. What I said was it doesn't outweigh the power advantage his size gives him.

I truly can't believe people are debating with me whether him being John Henry (the legend, not the guy who traded Mookie Betts) has made his career tough.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Disadvantage. Why? Large strike zone. And on top of that his high kneecaps are a further disadvantage. With the same AB’s Judge would be even or near on homers and RBI’s.
How does being large help his batting average? If you’re big your timing and coordination is better?

You are 100% right about the zone. As for avg. your statement points to an idea that smaller players have better timing and coordination. Although being taller may not help Judge with timing it clearly hasn't hurt him. His B.A. numbers are legendary.
Judge's timing is better than the majority of the league and the majority of the league are shorter than him.
He does strike out a ton but we can't only blame his height for that.

We CAN claim by math that his size is directly proportional to his power #'s. And his consistent power #'s are a main reason why he's the best player in the league every year.

 

[nomar]

Well if (when) he does win the batting title this season he will be the tallest player ever to win it. It wasn't until the 1970's that someone taller than 6'4" (Dave Parker @ 6'5") won the title and there have only been a handful of tall ball players historically who won batting titles (Ted Williams, John Olerud, Frank Thomas are the only others taller than 6"1" or so).

The percentage of men over 6'4" is small. Then consider whether tall athletes gravitate towards baseball and, if they do, whether they are steered towards the pitchers' mound.

Plenty of tall guys have had great success hitting. Stanton's one guy on Judge's own team who had some monster seasons.

 

[Scoe]

The reality is that Judge is the mvp but the perception is that Raleigh is the mvp. Perception will trump reality, the 60 hrs especially as a catcher will stand out so much to so therefore no one is gonna wanna hear the Judge angle to it and the fact he won the last 2 MVPs.