Mizzou - South Carolina

[Orangutan]

She got tossed out of the game. That's the punishment.

I'm not sure where this vitriol is coming from. It's like Dawn came to your houses and kicked your dog or something.

I think Tara is maybe the only other top coach that I *haven't* seen ripped on this board. Was only a matter of time before folks got around to Dawn.

 

[Phil]

One potential complication.

In 2002 the length of time to substitute a disqualified player was 30 seconds.

A buzzer is supposed to sound 15 seconds before the end of the half minute to provide some warning.

They changed the length of time from 30 seconds to 20 seconds at some time, but they still kept the warning buzzer 15 seconds before the end, so that means one someone is disqualified, five seconds goes by a buzzer sounds, and you have 15 more seconds to make the substitution.

The complication is that they dropped the substitution time to 15 seconds a couple years ago or so, but they left the warning buzzer margin at 15 seconds. So this means if you're going to give a warning buzzer 15 seconds before the 15 second limit, you have to sound the warning buzzer immediately as the disqualification occurs and I can imagine some coaches not recognizing that the immediate buzzer is a 15 second warning.

I didn't actually see Dawn during this. So I don't know that her failure to provide a substitute in time was due to a misunderstanding. Some have suggested she was being stubborn (I'm a big fan of Dawn but imagining that she is stubborn is not hard). However, I don't know whether those suggestions were based on actual knowledge or supposition or something else.

I do think there is potential for confusion and if they what the limit to be 15 seconds, I think the warning buzzer should be maybe with 10 seconds to go. Sounding a warning immediately is kind of useless, if you think about it.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

That comment can be taken a number of ways:
- officials should treat star players differently because they are stars and should be allowed to play their way.
- stars are so skilled that they don’t commit fouls
- the star power hasn’t reached the officials as yet

Pick one

If I had to narrow down a point of frustration -- and this is mine as much as Staley's -- it is that the officials allowed Missouri to play physical with USC's posts without whistling fouls and were quick on the whistle versus USC.

I don't really want Wilson to get special treatment and be immune from fouls, but if you are going to let the other team use physicality to negate her superiority as a player then it seems unfair to hold her to a higher standard on the other end.

However, I think physical play has been one way that teams have gotten to USC the last few years. Kentucky used to be able to do it and its no secret that is Missouri's calling card.

I give them credit for offsetting the talent differential and Cunningham is a good player. And it is on South Carolina not to lose its composure when you get played that way. But just my opinion, I think they let Missouri be too rough. I don't think that head butt on Wilson was entirely unintentional either. the girl just walked right through Wilson as part of their intimidation. This is the sort of thing they let the opponent do to the SEC POY and I think that is what was especially frustrating to Coach, who is not generally one to complain about officiating.

Anyway, I have no problems with Coach getting her team's back and perhaps the next times around that game will be called a little tighter on both ends.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

The 3 that I saw were legit, don't know about the other 2.

The fifth foul was legit. The offensive foul when she turned in the second half was questionable, but

Nan I don't hate Dawn, I just get tired of her thinking that if you are a star you should get different treatment. Those 3 fouls that I saw she complained about them and they were legit calls. She complained last year after they lost to Mizzou for the same reason. The only team that has complained about Mizzou's physical play has been SC.

You are tired of it? When did she do it before?

 

[Bliss]

Our gal Sophie is for real, as are the rest of the Tigers.

Sophie Cunningham returns, and Mizzou beats defending national champ South Carolina

 

[Gamecockfan77]

It's not FIBA. Why are you taking it so personally?

It was personal long before she said anything about the officials. Just look at the game thread. It's cool, he doesn't like Coach and there are plenty of possibilities as to why. Not worth an investigation. It is just known.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Abso...freakin...lutely! I want to like Wilson but her demeanor and inability to control herself as a "star" player sort of irritates. And yes, it also irritates me when DT behaves like that (sorry fellow BYers). I watched the game today and all the fouls were earned. Dawn, herself knows of Wilson propensity for fouls and is why she took her out after the second foul late in the 1Q and didn't put her back in until 3Q. This team is short on experience and some of the others need to step up to help beside Harris. That said, Cunningham played possessed today (and also plays with a bit of an edge). I like Mizzou and this was my first chance to see them for a full game. I think the SEC is MSU a gap and then SC, Mizzou, Tenn, TAM and even Georgia may be for real this year. Tenn has a rough 4 game stretch coming up so we will see how real they are.

Alexis Jennings picked up her second foul with 9:04 left in the first quarter.

Aja Wilson picked up her second foul with 6:43 left in the first quarter. Picked up her third foul with 8:44 left in the 3Q. Her fourth foul with 4:21 left in the 3Q.

FWIW, I think Missouri outplayed South Carolina. I would say that Missouri won in large part because South Carolina was not able to defend them when they needed to, but I think that overlooks the good work they did in the first half. But down the stretch with the fouls and loss of composure, could not get stops.

South Carolina is pretty unlikely to win the National Championship this year and with this loss they have their work cut out for them to win the SEC. Can probably only afford one more loss and it probably can't be to Miss State or Tennessee.

I'll give Missouri credit for winning the game they way they had to. Don't have to love them for it though.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I think Tara is maybe the only other top coach that I *haven't* seen ripped on this board. Was only a matter of time before folks got around to Dawn.

Let's get Tara out of the way, in the interest of fairness and clearing up foot notes. After getting trounced 87-60 by UConn in the 1995 Nat'l Semifinal Tara was classless enough a sore loser tom say "no way" UConn beats Tennessee. Dumb and classless.

 

[SVCBeercats]

It's not FIBA. Why are you taking it so personally?

MS - Master Sargent
Respect authority.

 

[HuskyNan]

MS - Master Sargent
Respect authority.

I have great respect for former and current members of our armed forces. I don’t know how my comments say otherwise. However, MSGT shouldn’t get a pass any more than A’ja Wilson should.

 

[HuskyNan]

I think Tara is maybe the only other top coach that I *haven't* seen ripped on this board. Was only a matter of time before folks got around to Dawn.

I guess you weren’t around in 1996 when Tara, at the time the Olympic team head coach, declined to play Rebecca Lobo much during Olympic Games. It took 20 years for some UConn fans to get over it; some still haven’t.

 

[Adesmar123]

MS - Master Sargent
Respect authority.

Isn't Nan a Lt Colonel?

 

[Ukonnfan]

SC's home town paper cries FOUL! Judge for yourself: Dirty plays by Missouri against USC or not?

Interesting little video of a POed, pugnacious Dawn post-game.

See also: Dawn Staley ejected as USC drops chippy road contest to Mizzou

....first class acting. Especially Aja. Evidently, they have been taught that, and it works alot. In my opinion, they are the best at it in women's college basketball. Nothings going to change Dawn's view of it all, and as long as she's coaching, it will be the same ole thing. Just expect it. There's talent yes, but a little humble pie may do one good sometimes. It all depends on, if you eat it or throw it at someone.

 

[HuskyNan]

....first class acting. Especially Aja. Evidently, they have been taught that, and it works alot. In my opinion, they are the best at it in women's college basketball.

Dunno, did you see the USF kid act like she'd been thrown off a mountain top? Oscar worthy.

 

[Ukonnfan]

Dunno, did you see the USF kid act like she'd been thrown off a mountain top? Oscar worthy.

sorry, don't remember that one...was it Hair girl?

 

[Gamecockfan77]

....first class acting. Especially Aja. Evidently, they have been taught that, and it works alot. In my opinion, they are the best at it in women's college basketball.

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

 

[DefenseBB]

Alexis Jennings picked up her second foul with 9:04 left in the first quarter.

Aja Wilson picked up her third fouls with 6:43 left in the first quarter. Picked up her third foul with 8:44 left in the 3Q. Her fourth foul with 4:21 left in the 3Q.

FWIW, I think Missouri outplayed South Carolina. I would say that Missouri won in large part because South Carolina was not able to defend them when they needed to, but I think that overlooks the good work they did in the first half. But down the stretch with the fouls and loss of composure, could not get stops.

South Carolina is pretty unlikely to win the National Championship this year and with this loss they have their work cut out for them to win the SEC. Can probably only afford one more loss and it probably can't be to Miss State or Tennessee.

I'll give Missouri credit for winning the game they way they had to. Don't have to love them for it though.

Kudos to you for a very fair and objective analysis. I do think with the injuries, SC is a tad short on talent when compared to MSU and Tenn. Dawn can coach up the team to beat a coaching challenged Vol team but MSU is another issue altogether as that game is in Starkville. Dawn is a vicious competitor (in a good way) so I don’t begrudge her too much but as the head of the Olympic team and now a beacon for Women’s Basketball she does need to show a bit more restraint and maybe that will pass down to her team and Aja.
Depending how Ms. Wilson performs against UConn/MSU and in the SEC Tourney will determine if she wins POY. She took a big hit in yesterday’s game and opened the door for others. I also think Mizzou has played “chippy” as well and want to see the Mizzou Tenn game to see how it is played out. The south usually doesn’t see hockey that often so...

 

[MSGRET]

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

Let me get this straight, it's OK for SC to manhandle a team, but not OK for a team to manhandle them. Last year in our 100th win SC was very physical on Lou and Pheesa, I think Lou was knocked to the ground at least 4 times, with no fouls called, but you cry when another team does that to SC. Suck it up Buttercup.

 

[Orangutan]

I guess you weren’t around in 1996 when Tara, at the time the Olympic team head coach, declined to play Rebecca Lobo much during Olympic Games. It took 20 years for some UConn fans to get over it; some still haven’t.

I wasn't plugged into the UConn women's basketball zeitgeist as an eight year old in Pennsylvania, no.

 

[JordyG]

I was out all of yesterday and missed the majority of yesterdays games. I just caught up to the SoCar/Mizzou game today.

I've said it before here and many times. I'm a Dawn fan. Unabashed. Potty mouth and all.

I love A'ja Wilson. I've said that here many times.

At the start of the game it sounded to me as if the rims were a bit loose.

The refs looked as if they were watching for SoCar running illegal screens and they rewarded SoCar with fouls twice early on for clear violations. The minute A'ja lost the opening jump she was ready to play. Early on Mizzou was very aggressive on defense, especially Jordan Frericks. When A'ja was called for her first over the back foul Frericks responded with an elbow into A'ja's neck. But the elbow was after the foul by A'ja. Jennings picked up two quick clear fouls. At 7:10 of the first A'ja was defended by Porter in the paint. Porter was trying to maintain position with her body and A'ja twice bumped her off position. To me the second bump was a foul by A'ja that wasn't called. On their next offensive possession A'ja was finally called for an offensive foul for pushing Porter off position. At 6:26 Mizzou goes to the line on a clear blocking foul by Cliney. And on and on. The tone of the game was set.

Complaining that the refs favored Mizzou in the game is just myopic. This was an aggressively played game on both sides. The refs were put in a position teams should never put them into. They tried to call stuff early to keep the game from getting out of control and ended up pretty much calling every 3rd foul. Believe me, these teams earned every one of the calls against them and then some. I saw some borderline calls but no bad ones.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Winners smile, losers say "Deal!". Or "I gotta bad deal". I never complain about how refs call the game. Your team should be good enough to overcome any call or series of bad calls. Any adversity for that matter. SoCar as a team and its fans should just admit to themselves that Mizzou matches up well against their team. That twice in a row now they've been outplayed and Dawn has been out coached by Robin Pingeton. Now what do we need to get better?

 

[hussybulldog]

If I had to narrow down a point of frustration -- and this is mine as much as Staley's -- it is that the officials allowed Missouri to play physical with USC's posts without whistling fouls and were quick on the whistle versus USC.

I don't really want Wilson to get special treatment and be immune from fouls, but if you are going to let the other team use physicality to negate her superiority as a player then it seems unfair to hold her to a higher standard on the other end.

However, I think physical play has been one way that teams have gotten to USC the last few years. Kentucky used to be able to do it and its no secret that is Missouri's calling card.

I give them credit for offsetting the talent differential and Cunningham is a good player. And it is on South Carolina not to lose its composure when you get played that way. But just my opinion, I think they let Missouri be too rough. I don't think that head butt on Wilson was entirely unintentional either. the girl just walked right through Wilson as part of their intimidation. This is the sort of thing they let the opponent do to the SEC POY and I think that is what was especially frustrating to Coach, who is not generally one to complain about officiating.

Anyway, I have no problems with Coach getting her team's back and perhaps the next times around that game will be called a little tighter on both ends.

Totally agree, it needs to be fair. But Dawn’s statement implied the best player should somehow get special treatment as if she is so good that she could not possibly foul or should not be whistled even when she actually fouls and should be allowed to play longer than the eventuality. Samuelson got whistled three times in 1Q the other day in the game against USF. So good players do get whistled, rightly or wrongly. Asking for fairness is more appealing and reasonable.

 

[HuskyNan]

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

So Carolina is finding out what UConn knows and what Baylor learned a few years ago - when you win a championship and have the best player(s) you’re a target, literally. Diana Taurasi was covered in black and blues her last two years at UConn.

Gotta say, the So Carolina howling reminds me of Baylor fans after an extremely physical Louisville team beat them.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

SC drops to 9 in the AP poll, down from 4. AP Women's Basketball Poll Week 10

 

[donalddoowop]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this earlier in this thread because I don't feel like going through the whole thread but, the ref's did not keep or send Wilson to the bench, Dawn did. There is no basketball rule that states a player must sit after two fouls. There have been times before when Dawn has kept a good player on the bench too long. KLS had four fouls in a game and told Geno and he asked what did she want him to do. She stayed in and played the rest of the game. The first time I remember a coach sitting a player with two fouls was when John Chaney of Temple started doing it years ago and other coaches followed suit. Now, coaches may have started doing it before that but, that is when I first started seeing it. An official should call a foul at any time of a game and regardless of who fouled. Announcers say people come to see the players and not the officials and that is true. Some officials can be obnoxious. However, a star player can overcome not sitting a lot during a game by not fouling. It is the officials job to call fouls. How many times have some of you seen a player clearly foul and then act as if they wondered why the foul was called? Saying all this, I did see a lot of questionable calls this week-end after watching at least ten games or more.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I guess you weren’t around in 1996 when Tara, at the time the Olympic team head coach, declined to play Rebecca Lobo much during Olympic Games. It took 20 years for some UConn fans to get over it; some still haven’t.

At the time there was quite a bit of discussion about the reasons behind VanDerveer's treatment of Lobo.