Mizzou - South Carolina

[Gamecockfan77]

It's not FIBA. Why are you taking it so personally?

It was personal long before she said anything about the officials. Just look at the game thread. It's cool, he doesn't like Coach and there are plenty of possibilities as to why. Not worth an investigation. It is just known.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Abso...freakin...lutely! I want to like Wilson but her demeanor and inability to control herself as a "star" player sort of irritates. And yes, it also irritates me when DT behaves like that (sorry fellow BYers). I watched the game today and all the fouls were earned. Dawn, herself knows of Wilson propensity for fouls and is why she took her out after the second foul late in the 1Q and didn't put her back in until 3Q. This team is short on experience and some of the others need to step up to help beside Harris. That said, Cunningham played possessed today (and also plays with a bit of an edge). I like Mizzou and this was my first chance to see them for a full game. I think the SEC is MSU a gap and then SC, Mizzou, Tenn, TAM and even Georgia may be for real this year. Tenn has a rough 4 game stretch coming up so we will see how real they are.

Alexis Jennings picked up her second foul with 9:04 left in the first quarter.

Aja Wilson picked up her second foul with 6:43 left in the first quarter. Picked up her third foul with 8:44 left in the 3Q. Her fourth foul with 4:21 left in the 3Q.

FWIW, I think Missouri outplayed South Carolina. I would say that Missouri won in large part because South Carolina was not able to defend them when they needed to, but I think that overlooks the good work they did in the first half. But down the stretch with the fouls and loss of composure, could not get stops.

South Carolina is pretty unlikely to win the National Championship this year and with this loss they have their work cut out for them to win the SEC. Can probably only afford one more loss and it probably can't be to Miss State or Tennessee.

I'll give Missouri credit for winning the game they way they had to. Don't have to love them for it though.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I think Tara is maybe the only other top coach that I *haven't* seen ripped on this board. Was only a matter of time before folks got around to Dawn.

Let's get Tara out of the way, in the interest of fairness and clearing up foot notes. After getting trounced 87-60 by UConn in the 1995 Nat'l Semifinal Tara was classless enough a sore loser tom say "no way" UConn beats Tennessee. Dumb and classless.

 

[SVCBeercats]

It's not FIBA. Why are you taking it so personally?

MS - Master Sargent
Respect authority.

 

[HuskyNan]

MS - Master Sargent
Respect authority.

I have great respect for former and current members of our armed forces. I don’t know how my comments say otherwise. However, MSGT shouldn’t get a pass any more than A’ja Wilson should.

 

[HuskyNan]

I think Tara is maybe the only other top coach that I *haven't* seen ripped on this board. Was only a matter of time before folks got around to Dawn.

I guess you weren’t around in 1996 when Tara, at the time the Olympic team head coach, declined to play Rebecca Lobo much during Olympic Games. It took 20 years for some UConn fans to get over it; some still haven’t.

 

[Adesmar123]

MS - Master Sargent
Respect authority.

Isn't Nan a Lt Colonel?

 

[Ukonnfan]

SC's home town paper cries FOUL! Judge for yourself: Dirty plays by Missouri against USC or not?

Interesting little video of a POed, pugnacious Dawn post-game.

See also: Dawn Staley ejected as USC drops chippy road contest to Mizzou

....first class acting. Especially Aja. Evidently, they have been taught that, and it works alot. In my opinion, they are the best at it in women's college basketball. Nothings going to change Dawn's view of it all, and as long as she's coaching, it will be the same ole thing. Just expect it. There's talent yes, but a little humble pie may do one good sometimes. It all depends on, if you eat it or throw it at someone.

 

[HuskyNan]

....first class acting. Especially Aja. Evidently, they have been taught that, and it works alot. In my opinion, they are the best at it in women's college basketball.

Dunno, did you see the USF kid act like she'd been thrown off a mountain top? Oscar worthy.

 

[Ukonnfan]

Dunno, did you see the USF kid act like she'd been thrown off a mountain top? Oscar worthy.

sorry, don't remember that one...was it Hair girl?

 

[Gamecockfan77]

....first class acting. Especially Aja. Evidently, they have been taught that, and it works alot. In my opinion, they are the best at it in women's college basketball.

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

 

[DefenseBB]

Alexis Jennings picked up her second foul with 9:04 left in the first quarter.

Aja Wilson picked up her third fouls with 6:43 left in the first quarter. Picked up her third foul with 8:44 left in the 3Q. Her fourth foul with 4:21 left in the 3Q.

FWIW, I think Missouri outplayed South Carolina. I would say that Missouri won in large part because South Carolina was not able to defend them when they needed to, but I think that overlooks the good work they did in the first half. But down the stretch with the fouls and loss of composure, could not get stops.

South Carolina is pretty unlikely to win the National Championship this year and with this loss they have their work cut out for them to win the SEC. Can probably only afford one more loss and it probably can't be to Miss State or Tennessee.

I'll give Missouri credit for winning the game they way they had to. Don't have to love them for it though.

Kudos to you for a very fair and objective analysis. I do think with the injuries, SC is a tad short on talent when compared to MSU and Tenn. Dawn can coach up the team to beat a coaching challenged Vol team but MSU is another issue altogether as that game is in Starkville. Dawn is a vicious competitor (in a good way) so I don’t begrudge her too much but as the head of the Olympic team and now a beacon for Women’s Basketball she does need to show a bit more restraint and maybe that will pass down to her team and Aja.
Depending how Ms. Wilson performs against UConn/MSU and in the SEC Tourney will determine if she wins POY. She took a big hit in yesterday’s game and opened the door for others. I also think Mizzou has played “chippy” as well and want to see the Mizzou Tenn game to see how it is played out. The south usually doesn’t see hockey that often so...

 

[MSGRET]

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

Let me get this straight, it's OK for SC to manhandle a team, but not OK for a team to manhandle them. Last year in our 100th win SC was very physical on Lou and Pheesa, I think Lou was knocked to the ground at least 4 times, with no fouls called, but you cry when another team does that to SC. Suck it up Buttercup.

 

[Orangutan]

I guess you weren’t around in 1996 when Tara, at the time the Olympic team head coach, declined to play Rebecca Lobo much during Olympic Games. It took 20 years for some UConn fans to get over it; some still haven’t.

I wasn't plugged into the UConn women's basketball zeitgeist as an eight year old in Pennsylvania, no.

 

[JordyG]

I was out all of yesterday and missed the majority of yesterdays games. I just caught up to the SoCar/Mizzou game today.

I've said it before here and many times. I'm a Dawn fan. Unabashed. Potty mouth and all.

I love A'ja Wilson. I've said that here many times.

At the start of the game it sounded to me as if the rims were a bit loose.

The refs looked as if they were watching for SoCar running illegal screens and they rewarded SoCar with fouls twice early on for clear violations. The minute A'ja lost the opening jump she was ready to play. Early on Mizzou was very aggressive on defense, especially Jordan Frericks. When A'ja was called for her first over the back foul Frericks responded with an elbow into A'ja's neck. But the elbow was after the foul by A'ja. Jennings picked up two quick clear fouls. At 7:10 of the first A'ja was defended by Porter in the paint. Porter was trying to maintain position with her body and A'ja twice bumped her off position. To me the second bump was a foul by A'ja that wasn't called. On their next offensive possession A'ja was finally called for an offensive foul for pushing Porter off position. At 6:26 Mizzou goes to the line on a clear blocking foul by Cliney. And on and on. The tone of the game was set.

Complaining that the refs favored Mizzou in the game is just myopic. This was an aggressively played game on both sides. The refs were put in a position teams should never put them into. They tried to call stuff early to keep the game from getting out of control and ended up pretty much calling every 3rd foul. Believe me, these teams earned every one of the calls against them and then some. I saw some borderline calls but no bad ones.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Winners smile, losers say "Deal!". Or "I gotta bad deal". I never complain about how refs call the game. Your team should be good enough to overcome any call or series of bad calls. Any adversity for that matter. SoCar as a team and its fans should just admit to themselves that Mizzou matches up well against their team. That twice in a row now they've been outplayed and Dawn has been out coached by Robin Pingeton. Now what do we need to get better?

 

[hussybulldog]

If I had to narrow down a point of frustration -- and this is mine as much as Staley's -- it is that the officials allowed Missouri to play physical with USC's posts without whistling fouls and were quick on the whistle versus USC.

I don't really want Wilson to get special treatment and be immune from fouls, but if you are going to let the other team use physicality to negate her superiority as a player then it seems unfair to hold her to a higher standard on the other end.

However, I think physical play has been one way that teams have gotten to USC the last few years. Kentucky used to be able to do it and its no secret that is Missouri's calling card.

I give them credit for offsetting the talent differential and Cunningham is a good player. And it is on South Carolina not to lose its composure when you get played that way. But just my opinion, I think they let Missouri be too rough. I don't think that head butt on Wilson was entirely unintentional either. the girl just walked right through Wilson as part of their intimidation. This is the sort of thing they let the opponent do to the SEC POY and I think that is what was especially frustrating to Coach, who is not generally one to complain about officiating.

Anyway, I have no problems with Coach getting her team's back and perhaps the next times around that game will be called a little tighter on both ends.

Totally agree, it needs to be fair. But Dawn’s statement implied the best player should somehow get special treatment as if she is so good that she could not possibly foul or should not be whistled even when she actually fouls and should be allowed to play longer than the eventuality. Samuelson got whistled three times in 1Q the other day in the game against USF. So good players do get whistled, rightly or wrongly. Asking for fairness is more appealing and reasonable.

 

[HuskyNan]

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

So Carolina is finding out what UConn knows and what Baylor learned a few years ago - when you win a championship and have the best player(s) you’re a target, literally. Diana Taurasi was covered in black and blues her last two years at UConn.

Gotta say, the So Carolina howling reminds me of Baylor fans after an extremely physical Louisville team beat them.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

SC drops to 9 in the AP poll, down from 4. AP Women's Basketball Poll Week 10

 

[donalddoowop]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this earlier in this thread because I don't feel like going through the whole thread but, the ref's did not keep or send Wilson to the bench, Dawn did. There is no basketball rule that states a player must sit after two fouls. There have been times before when Dawn has kept a good player on the bench too long. KLS had four fouls in a game and told Geno and he asked what did she want him to do. She stayed in and played the rest of the game. The first time I remember a coach sitting a player with two fouls was when John Chaney of Temple started doing it years ago and other coaches followed suit. Now, coaches may have started doing it before that but, that is when I first started seeing it. An official should call a foul at any time of a game and regardless of who fouled. Announcers say people come to see the players and not the officials and that is true. Some officials can be obnoxious. However, a star player can overcome not sitting a lot during a game by not fouling. It is the officials job to call fouls. How many times have some of you seen a player clearly foul and then act as if they wondered why the foul was called? Saying all this, I did see a lot of questionable calls this week-end after watching at least ten games or more.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I guess you weren’t around in 1996 when Tara, at the time the Olympic team head coach, declined to play Rebecca Lobo much during Olympic Games. It took 20 years for some UConn fans to get over it; some still haven’t.

At the time there was quite a bit of discussion about the reasons behind VanDerveer's treatment of Lobo.

 

[j66kicker]

At the time there was quite a bit of discussion about the reasons behind VanDerveer's treatment of Lobo.

There sure was. And to this day I still always enjoy seeing Tara get beat, which I had the pleasure of doing in person in Tempe yesterday

 

[DefenseBB]

Let's get Tara out of the way, in the interest of fairness and clearing up foot notes. After getting trounced 87-60 by UConn in the 1995 Nat'l Semifinal Tara was classless enough a sore loser tom say "no way" UConn beats Tennessee. Dumb and classless.

Rocky/HuskyNan- if I may offer a diiferent perspective in varying memories of history:
On Rocky’s Tara retort-back in 1995 Tenn was UConn, the big bad juggernaut that lost a game to the upstart at the upstart. It had experience and the pre-eminent coach at the time so Tara, was not necessarily wrong in her perspective in that
1. She just lost to UConn and may have been slightly peeved;
2. As noted, Geno was/is rather brash to the establishment (which anyone trying to carve out their territory will irritate the aforementioned owners of the turf and at the time, Tara may have been more on Pats side as she was carving her own reputation (taking over the Olympics having got Pat’s blessing).
What do you think anyone said to MSU when they made it to the final four last year to play UConn? "Hey, go get em, you’ve got a real chance?" Or do you think the loser said"Hey congrats, now you will lose"...

On Lobo and the ‘96 Team- USA Hoop desperately wanted to capitalize on Lobo’s marketability to generate interest, which was sorely lacking and wanted Atlanta to showcase the sport and forced her onto the team like all the college players have been for “the next face”. Tara took the year off from Stanford to get the team ready with established pros who were better than our Ms. Lobo at the time. From a documentary I saw on that team, Rebecca came to camp out of shape, which considering what Tara gave up to coach the team, was highly irritating to her (and if really true, who could blame Tara). Think about last Olympics when Catchings was on the team but didn’t play. The Vol fans were livid, but she was a good teammate and they won the gold. Same as for Tara, she won the gold so who can really quibble how much Rebecca played? It’s 22 years now and Geno seems to have moved on and still plays Tara so if he has no problem, I have no problem.
While I have stated that I do think he and Pat mended their grievances, as evidenced in numerous actions by Geno, he still will not play Tenn in a series. Again, I am also ok with that perspective as well. We have moved on so my own suggestion is we also encourage any BYers with issues about Tara to move on. I mean we can be nice when we CRUSH them in games...

 

[vtcwbuff]

"USA Hoop desperately wanted to capitalize on Lobo’s marketability and forced her onto the team . . ."

Why would USA Basketball have to "force" Lobo onto the team? Aren't they the guys that pick the players?

Your comparison of Catchings in 2016 to Lobo in 1996 is just as ridiculous. In '96 Lobo was the next best thing in Women's bball while Catchings in 2016 was playing her swan song. Saying that Catchings "didn't play" is so wrong - she played in every game, averaging around 10 minutes.

I have never heard the comment that Lobo showed up for team USA "out of shape." Not saying that it couldn't have happened but it sounds as if that was something someone put out there to cover the real reason Lobo rode the bench.

 

[Woof 101]

If I had to narrow down a point of frustration -- and this is mine as much as Staley's -- it is that the officials allowed Missouri to play physical with USC's posts without whistling fouls and were quick on the whistle versus USC.

I don't really want Wilson to get special treatment and be immune from fouls, but if you are going to let the other team use physicality to negate her superiority as a player then it seems unfair to hold her to a higher standard on the other end.

However, I think physical play has been one way that teams have gotten to USC the last few years. Kentucky used to be able to do it and its no secret that is Missouri's calling card.

I give them credit for offsetting the talent differential and Cunningham is a good player. And it is on South Carolina not to lose its composure when you get played that way. But just my opinion, I think they let Missouri be too rough. I don't think that head butt on Wilson was entirely unintentional either. the girl just walked right through Wilson as part of their intimidation. This is the sort of thing they let the opponent do to the SEC POY and I think that is what was especially frustrating to Coach, who is not generally one to complain about officiating.

Anyway, I have no problems with Coach getting her team's back and perhaps the next times around that game will be called a little tighter on both ends.

No attack Gamecock, just a difference of opinion. Dawn comes off looking really not smart on this one. You say she does not normally complain about officials, my guess is you missed the fact she complained about the officials before the game was even played. Maybe they got word???
Then she goes on to say "a player of Wilson's caliber ought to get the benefit of the doubt. If you missed the earlier links.
Cunningham leads No. 15 Missouri to upset of No. 4 Gamecocks
We have to hope she will think about it before she texts or talks as our Olympic coach.

 

[j66kicker]

"USA Hoop desperately wanted to capitalize on Lobo’s marketability and forced her onto the team . . ."

Why would USA Basketball have to "force" Lobo onto the team? Aren't they the guys that pick the players?

Your comparison of Catchings in 2016 to Lobo in 1996 is just as ridiculous. In '96 Lobo was the next best thing in Women's bball while Catchings in 2016 was playing her swan song. Saying that Catchings "didn't play" is so wrong - she played in every game, averaging around 10 minutes.

I have never heard the comment that Lobo showed up for team USA "out of shape." Not saying that it couldn't have happened but it sounds as if that was something someone put out there to cover the real reason Lobo rode the bench.

Yes they are, and the committee put the NPOY on the team against Tara’s express wishes (this was way before Rebecca allegedly showed up “out of shape”). Unlike Pat, who agreed to play UConn - AT UConn - in ESPN’s inaugural MLK Day game that year ,“for the good of WBB,” Tara fought it - “for the good of Tara.”

I’m over it (well....), but I will never forget it. Regarding Geno, it is also insightful to remember that “vendetta” is an Italian word

 

[oldude]

Regarding Geno, it is also insightful to remember that “vendetta” is an Italian word

From the Latin "Vindicta" meaning vengeance.

 

[DefenseBB]

"USA Hoop desperately wanted to capitalize on Lobo’s marketability and forced her onto the team . . ."

Why would USA Basketball have to "force" Lobo onto the team? Aren't they the guys that pick the players?

Your comparison of Catchings in 2016 to Lobo in 1996 is just as ridiculous. In '96 Lobo was the next best thing in Women's bball while Catchings in 2016 was playing her swan song. Saying that Catchings "didn't play" is so wrong - she played in every game, averaging around 10 minutes.

I have never heard the comment that Lobo showed up for team USA "out of shape." Not saying that it couldn't have happened but it sounds as if that was something someone put out there to cover the real reason Lobo rode the bench.

Here's a link- 1995-96 USA Basketball Women's Senior National Team that will give you some perspective on who the real stars were. I stand by my comments on Lobo, at 22, not a seasoned enough player vs. the others but fresh off of a great college season (think Christian Laettner/Anthony Davis) with high market recognition vs. the better and more established players, was put on the team over some better players because she was well known. Yes, it's that simple and it happens. What I think most of this board knows, in 1996, she was not 1 of the 12 best and is why she also sort of road the bench. That's all I am saying. She did play as you noted and my rebuttal was to our HuskyNan who noted the BYers thought Rebecca should have played more (like the Vol fans with Catchings). That's my comparison, if it offends your sensibilities or my other UConn fans, I am sorry as my intent is to show a more objective perspective.

 

[ocoandasoc]

Acting? Wilson got head butted and came out of the game. You could see the redness on her nose in the telecast.

The Missouri player maybe didn't intend to head butt her, but you aren't going to convince me that she didn't deliberately walk through her. Really surprised there was no call there. Wilson left the game.

The Cunningham grab was appropriately officiated. I don't have a super big problem with it other than it was a foul. It wasn't a flagrant, but it was physical.

Those two plays are just illustrations of Missouri's intentional physicality. It's frustrating to see a team pull that on the team that you follow and I am sure more frustrating when it is the one you coach and you don't any help from officials.

But I'm not calling Missouri a plague on the game or anything. It's just a style of play you need to be able to handle if you want to win championships. Because some teams are going to play that way.

Watch the replay. It's still up on ESPN's web site. Porter and Wilson walked into each other. One of the replay angles shows that clearly. (Surprise, that's not the angle the SC media showed!) Porter's skull went into Wilson's teeth. Totally accidental. (And clarify for me how it could have been deliberate if Porter didn't intend to do it?) Get over it. Then review Wilson's five fouls and tell me which one was a bad call? BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, Wilson and her teammates play a physical game as well. Watch the SC fouls in the last 90 seconds of the game -- some are a lot rougher than required and could easily have been called intentional.

Dawn is a great coach, but she has a mouth like a sailor and is on the officials constantly. There are not that many officiating teams that are assigned to the big tv games, and Dawn has worn a bunch of them out. (And she knows it, which is why she tries to influence who gets assigned to her games.) So, yeah, these refs probably come in with a bit of a short fuse -- but whose fault is that? When she sat motionless on the bench after Wilson's fifth foul she was simply showing up the refs. They had had enough at that point, and made the exceedingly rare call of a technical for failure to substitute in a timely manner. She was very surprised that her little stunt back-fired. I thought it was overkill, myself. But they were sending her a message. Maybe she should listen.

The fouls were actually even until the last two minutes when SC started fouling on every play to try and overcome the double digit Mizzou lead. And more Missouri players fouled out than SC players. Sure, there were missed calls and poor calls along the way. But I think they broke about even.

I remember when Louisville upset Baylor by employing a sagging triple-team on Griner all the Baylor fans were upset and Mulkey wound up getting fined after a review of the game didn't bear out her charges of bad officiating. It seems whenever David beats Goliath someone is there to say "No fair, he used a sling!"

Yes, SC is the reigning National Champion. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee, but it won't -- and it shouldn't -- get your coach or star player preferential treatment by the refs.

 

[FanFromMaine]

I too just had a chance to watch the SC-Mizzou replay. Mizzou seemed to play better and SC seemed short-handed.

I'm not a big Dawn Staley fan but she doesn't deserve the vitriol expressed above. She's stilling relatively young and learning. I remember an NCAA playoff game in 2013 where a Maryland player lowered the boom on Kelly Faris just before the half; no foul was called. The announcers and the people in the stands were howling that Geno get a technical to "protect" his players. He did but at the beginning of the second half he said he regretted doing so as it resulted in a swing of 6 points. I know he has CD clinging to him but I can't remember another technical since then.

 

[SVCBeercats]

I have great respect for former and current members of our armed forces. I don’t know how my comments say otherwise. However, MSGT shouldn’t get a pass any more than A’ja Wilson should.

You said and asked:

• It's not FIBA.
• Why are you taking it so personally?

As a response I said: Master Sargent. As a Master Sargent he expected and received respect (at least to his face ). I also said respect authority. Per his military experience he probably expects authority figures to receive respect. On the court during a game the referees are authority figures ergo his displeasure and taking it personal. I should have been more explicit for you.