Miss State's New Coach

[BobbyJ]

In Louisville news, they just landed a very good recruit in Payton Verhulst, someone many of us were hoping for.

Maybe you were but for me Fudd will do just fine.

 

[MilfordHusky]

JordyG posted on Verhulst on Monday, and 6 people liked his post.

 

[Geew1992]

I believe Notre Dame was really hoping .........

So was Tennessee.

 

[Jim R]

A bit thin?! Are you serious?

Head coach at a mid major for 3 years. Took over a team that was 17-14 the year before. And produced records of 8-23 (12th in conference), 21-10 (5th in conference), and 24-6 (2nd in conference.). Her record as a Head coach: 53-39 (.576). And that justifies being hired to a Top 10 team? What did I miss?
Contrast that with, let's say, Cincinnati's coach, Michelle Clark Heard, would turned losers into winners at Kentucky State & Western Kentucky, and most recently improved Cincinnati's program. Her 10-year Head coaching record is 206–112 (.648).
Yes, Nikki McCray-Penson's Head coaching record is a bit thin, to say the least. Clark Heard's, not so much. But, I'm not paying the bills, Miss State is, and hopefully, the choice will justify the selection with competitive, winning basketball. I've got no "dog" (no pun intended intended) in the fight, but always try and find an answer to the :why" question.

 

[donalddoowop]

Did you say, "Duke"?

I thought about Duke. However, even though he does not know it but Triad is my buddy and I did not want to say anything bad about his beloved Duke.

 

[PGBully]

Schaefer made MSU, they will be a borderline Top 15 team and nothing more with him gone!

Then would it not be fair to say that Coach Geno made UCONN, and that they will be a borderline top 15 team and nothing more with him gone?

Pat made Tennessee, since she has been gone they’ve been a borderline top 15 team and nothing more. If it can happen there it can happen anywhere.

 

[CocoHusky]

In Louisville news, they just landed a very good recruit in Payton Verhulst, someone many of us were hoping for.

Well hopefully Jeff won't ask her to red shirt.

 

[oldude]

Well hopefully Jeff won't ask her to red shirt.

Don’t count on it.....

 

[Jim R]

I thought about Duke. However, even though he does not know it but Triad is my buddy and I did not want to say anything bad about his beloved Duke.

 

[Cuango]

This seems like a very underwhelming hire for a program that has been knocking on the door of the “top program” club for several years now! We shall see. I would have thought a school in their position; a solid roster, recent history of good recruiting, very successful on-court results over the past 4-5 years, and, (I believe) very good facilities/fan base should have been able to attract a top echelon coach. Now she may turn out to be great but it seems a bit of a Hail Mary to me. I wish her and her new school well. It would be a shame if they slide back down into mediocrity.

 

[triaddukefan]

Did you say, "Duke"?

 

[SECbbfan24]

This seems like a very underwhelming hire for a program that has been knocking on the door of the “top program” club for several years now! We shall see. I would have thought a school in their position; a solid roster, recent history of good recruiting, very successful on-court results over the past 4-5 years, and, (I believe) very good facilities/fan base should have been able to attract a top echelon coach. Now she may turn out to be great but it seems a bit of a Hail Mary to me. I wish her and her new school well. It would be a shame if they slide back down into mediocrity.

I mean who can they realistically get? Your top coaches (annually top 10) Geno, Kim, Graves, Walz, Muffet, Dawn, Brenda, Tara all have great programs, paid pretty well. What incentive does any one of those have to leave their current gigs for Starkville? Very little unless Miss St pays unrealistically for a coach. WBB is not some money maker, there will be limits obviously to what they can pay for.

Wes Moore is a terrific coach but he is up in age so I don't think its a realistic option.

Matthew Mitchell has his team annually in the top 25. He is a 'good' but not great coach. I don't think he is someone that could keep Miss St at the level they are at IMO. Which is why he was not pressed for.

In the end Miss St has to take a chance on an up and comer right now unless they want to settle for less at an established program. There are a lot of 'good coaches' out there but Miss St is going to take a chance on someone who can potentially be great and keep the level they are at. No one could have predicted Vic would be the next rising star when Miss St hired him. So your options are to either hire a top assistant coach or to hire someone with success at a mid major. They are hoping now that McCray can be that next star in the sport. Her back ground looks promising. We will see what happens.

 

[SimpleDawg]

I mean who can they realistically get? Your top coaches (annually top 10) Geno, Kim, Graves, Walz, Muffet, Dawn, Brenda, Tara all have great programs, paid pretty well. What incentive does any one of those have to leave their current gigs for Starkville? Very little unless Miss St pays unrealistically for a coach. WBB is not some money maker, there will be limits obviously to what they can pay for.

Wes Moore is a terrific coach but he is up in age so I don't think its a realistic option.

Matthew Mitchell has his team annually in the top 25. He is a 'good' but not great coach. I don't think he is someone that could keep Miss St at the level they are at IMO. Which is why he was not pressed for.

In the end Miss St has to take a chance on an up and comer right now unless they want to settle for less at an established program. There are a lot of 'good coaches' out there but Miss St is going to take a chance on someone who can potentially be great and keep the level they are at. No one could have predicted Vic would be the next rising star when Miss St hired him. So your options are to either hire a top assistant coach or to hire someone with success at a mid major. They are hoping now that McCray can be that next star in the sport. Her back ground looks promising. We will see what happens.

Maybe I could've suggested Adia Barnes?

 

[SECbbfan24]

Maybe I could've suggested Adia Barnes?

Very good coach but would she want to leave her Alma Mater?

 

[SimpleDawg]

Very good coach but would she want to leave her Alma Mater?

Pretty sure she could've used the cash.... lol

But we never talked to her, so.... no idea Cohen's thinking with that automatically going with McCray.

 

[PoppaBear]

So I'm guessing this is not a real popular hire?

 

[SECbbfan24]

But we never talked to her, so.... no idea Cohen's thinking with that automatically going with McCray.

I mean its Clear Walz was the number one priority from the start but he was always a bit of a stretch. In college basketball on the women's side, the same 8-9 teams dominate the top 10 almost every year and those coaches are in pretty good situations to even bolt for MSU.

You have some coaches out there like you mentioned (Adia Barnes) who have extremely promising results so far and have their teams ranked well nationally. I saw a comment from Cohen saying he is looking for 'the right fit'. I don't know if it means recruiting connections in the south/region or what but he is apparently looking to find the correct person who can maintain and build onto what Miss St has going.

There are some extremely promising mid major coaches out there that would be intriguing. The reality is MSU had a very slim shot to poach a coach from an elite power so your options are to find an up and coming coach from a mid major or completely gamble on a top assistant coach.

The reason why I think McCray is a hot name on the board is because she is only 48, she was a spectacular player at Tennessee under Summitt, a well looked up to African American woman who is a cancer survivor, she is an olympian with gold medals, she was a great asset and worked closely under Dawn, she is known as a relentless recruiter with a lot of connections, she turned ODU around pretty quick in 3 years (granted small sample size). While she is going to be a risk, she is a safer hire than J. Harris.

With this hire, MSU does not need to give out an absurd contract, start her out on a reasonable salary, and if she is everything and more, you can go up. These hires are always a risk but you have to start somewhere. There will be many current elite powers who will face similar situations in the coming years after their coach retires.

 

[SimpleDawg]

I mean its Clear Walz was the number one priority from the start but he was always a bit of a stretch. In college basketball on the women's side, the same 8-9 teams dominate the top 10 almost every year and those coaches are in pretty good situations to even bolt for MSU.

You have some coaches out there like you mentioned (Adia Barnes) who have extremely promising results so far and have their teams ranked well nationally. I saw a comment from Cohen saying he is looking for 'the right fit'. I don't know if it means recruiting connections in the south/region or what but he is apparently looking to find the correct person who can maintain and build onto what Miss St has going.

There are some extremely promising mid major coaches out there that would be intriguing. The reality is MSU had a very slim shot to poach a coach from an elite power so your options are to find an up and coming coach from a mid major or completely gamble on a top assistant coach.

The reason why I think McCray is a hot name on the board is because she is only 48, she was a spectacular player at Tennessee under Summitt, a well looked up to African American woman who is a cancer survivor, she is an olympian with gold medals, she was a great asset and worked closely under Dawn, she is known as a relentless recruiter with a lot of connections, she turned ODU around pretty quick in 3 years (granted small sample size). While she is going to be a risk, she is a safer hire than J. Harris.

With this hire, MSU does not need to give out an absurd contract, start her out on a reasonable salary, and if she is everything and more, you can go up. These hires are always a risk but you have to start somewhere. There will be many current elite powers who will face similar situations in the coming years after their coach retires.

Your points are understandable looking at it from an outsider's perspective, but if you evaluate this from a Mississippi State perspective we're really sick of good opportunities just passing us by like that. I realize we had no other option (short of Barnes, or going back in time to Goestenkors), but I guess the only real failproof choice was Walz and he refused to be tempted.

As for missed opportunities...... here's a bunch........

Had Dan stayed in 2017 with that #1 defense coming back, all he needed to do was have somewhat of an offense (unlike Joe who didn't have any), and I truly thought he could've fought with Saban and Orgeron for the West. A few crushing baseball defeats through the years... we went down to the wire a few times but couldn't finish it. Same with women's basketball and that Ogunbowale buzzer beater, now we return a top 3 ESPN ranked team (maybe top 6 now) and Vic leaves out of nowhere. And I highly doubt next year we could win a title. Maybe with Walz, but not with a first year coach.

And yeah....Nikki McCray might sound good to some, but I feel like she's 50/50. She can do all those things you feel she could, or she can drastically underwhelm. But I think the main roadblock to her success here is that she has a one year window. If she goes 22-10 first year..... the players might all bolt out ala Tennessee and Auburn. They came to play for a high-winning organization. Some are in it because they love the sisterhood above all else (Cooks, AEH, Mingo-Young), some because it's their best opportunity to play (Taylor, Morris). Some are in it because they wanna be the best possible player (Jackson). There is a certain amount of games she must win, otherwise I feel like these conflicts of mentalities will eventually win out.

However, I think one positive of Nikki is possibly her superior recruiting abilities over Vic. As good as Vic was, MSU recruited themselves to a certain extent after the year we lost to Notre Dame. But I don't feel Vic is an elite recruiter apart from selling his success at MSU. He doesn't go too far BEYOND that, imo. If Nikki pulls 2 top 30 recruits from the southeast (her region) - those are things to feel great about. But like I said, your points are fair and to be taken to mind, but I still think at the end.... Nikki is a 50/50 shot, and those can be seen as risky odds.

 

[Boreifs]

Head coach at a mid major for 3 years. Took over a team that was 17-14 the year before. And produced records of 8-23 (12th in conference), 21-10 (5th in conference), and 24-6 (2nd in conference.). Her record as a Head coach: 53-39 (.576). And that justifies being hired to a Top 10 team? What did I miss?
Contrast that with, let's say, Cincinnati's coach, Michelle Clark Heard, would turned losers into winners at Kentucky State & Western Kentucky, and most recently improved Cincinnati's program. Her 10-year Head coaching record is 206–112 (.648).
Yes, Nikki McCray-Penson's Head coaching record is a bit thin, to say the least. Clark Heard's, not so much. But, I'm not paying the bills, Miss State is, and hopefully, the choice will justify the selection with competitive, winning basketball. I've got no "dog" (no pun intended intended) in the fight, but always try and find an answer to the :why" question.

She has a sterling record as a player on the college, professional and Olympic level, as well as a highly successful record as an assistant coach at one of the top programs and turned around the program at what used to be one of the top five women’s teams. Any school would be lucky to get someone with that resume.

 

[SECbbfan24]

Your points are understandable looking at it from an outsider's perspective, but if you evaluate this from a Mississippi State perspective we're really sick of good opportunities just passing us by like that. I realize we had no other option (short of Barnes, or going back in time to Goestenkors), but I guess the only real failproof choice was Walz and he refused to be tempted.

As for missed opportunities...... here's a bunch........

Had Dan stayed in 2017 with that #1 defense coming back, all he needed to do was have somewhat of an offense (unlike Joe who didn't have any), and I truly thought he could've fought with Saban and Orgeron for the West. A few crushing baseball defeats through the years... we went down to the wire a few times but couldn't finish it. Same with women's basketball and that Ogunbowale buzzer beater, now we return a top 3 ESPN ranked team (maybe top 6 now) and Vic leaves out of nowhere. And I highly doubt next year we could win a title. Maybe with Walz, but not with a first year coach.

And yeah....Nikki McCray can do all those things you named, but I feel like she's 50/50. She can do all those things you feel she could, or she can drastically underwhelm. But I think the main roadblock to her success here is that she has a one year window. If she goes 22-10 first year..... the players might all bolt out ala Tennessee and Auburn. They came to play for a high-winning organization. Some are in it because they love the sisterhood above all else (Cooks, AEH, Mingo-Young), some because it's their best opportunity to play (Taylor, Morris). Some are in it because they wanna be the best possible player (Jackson). There is a certain amount of games she must win, otherwise I feel like these conflicts of mentalities will eventually win out.

However, I think one positive of Nikki is possibly her superior recruiting abilities over Vic. As good as Vic was, MSU recruited themselves to a certain extent after the year we lost to Notre Dame. But I don't feel Vic is an elite recruiter apart from selling his success at MSU. He doesn't go too far BEYOND that, imo. If Nikki pulls 2 top 30 recruits from the southeast (her region) - those are things to feel great about. But like I said, your points are fair and to be taken to mind, but I still think at the end.... Nikki is a 50/50 shot, and those can be seen as risky odds.

I’m not saying I don’t agree i was just explaining why MSU and many are looking strongly at her right now. I have not done much research on mid major coaches with more proven track records. My own school isn’t looking for a new coach right now. I know what you are talking about, I have seen it up close. As an LSU fan, I have seen how quickly a dominant program can go downhill so quickly with a hire. LSU has not had an elite program since Pokey left. There are many reasons for this but that’s another discussion.


I feel you are under selling Vic a little as a recruiter. First of all, Starkville can be challenging to recruit. MSU was never a top flight program in WBB when he took over. Vic and his staff did a great job finding some diamond in the roughs early on. What changed the program was when he struck gold with two elite recruits (Vivians and McCowan). The success he had with Morgan Williams, Vivians and McCowan completely changed the image of MSU and resulted in significantly better talent flowing in. He picked up players like Wiggins, Taylor, Carter, Rickea, Mingo young, Matharu, Hayes, Gaston along with highly rated transfers (A. Howard, AEH, Cooks) over the last couple years. IMO Vic was only getting started down in Starkville, he was really only beginning to reap the benefits of better talent down there. Now instead of having one or two highly rated recruits, he was forming a full team of them. But now he is gone so the next coach will need to continue to bring in top talent. McCray could make or break the future of MSU basketball in the near future, and once you go down, it can take a while to get back.

I sincerely hope it works out for y’all!

 

[SimpleDawg]

I’m not saying I don’t agree i was just explaining why MSU and many are looking strongly at her right now. I have not done much research on mid major coaches with more proven track records. My own school isn’t looking for a new coach right now. I know what you are talking about, I have seen it up close. As an LSU fan, I have seen how quickly a dominant program can go downhill so quickly with a hire. LSU has not had an elite program since Pokey left. There are many reasons for this but that’s another discussion.


I feel you are under selling Vic a little as a recruiter. First of all, Starkville can be challenging to recruit. MSU was never a top flight program in WBB when he took over. Vic and his staff did a great job finding some diamond in the roughs early on. What changed the program was when he struck gold with two elite recruits (Vivians and McCowan). The success he had with Morgan Williams, Vivians and McCowan completely changed the image of MSU and resulted in significantly better talent flowing in. He picked up players like Wiggins, Taylor, Carter, Rickea, Mingo young, Matharu, Hayes, Gaston along with highly rated transfers (A. Howard, AEH, Cooks) over the last couple years. IMO Vic was only getting started down in Starkville, he was really only beginning to reap the benefits of better talent down there. Now instead of having one or two highly rated recruits, he was forming a full team of them. But now he is gone so the next coach will need to continue to bring in top talent. McCray could make or break the future of MSU basketball in the near future, and once you go down, it can take a while to get back.

Yeah.... Pokey Chatman was really consistent. Too bad that scandal within the program took you guys down. The only issue I take is nobody in the State fanbase is willing to entertain the fact that we can go downhill just like that, and 99% of the fanbase is completely one-sided on McCray - and this is the exact type of attitude I fear will keep her here longer than she needs to be were she to fail.

And perhaps you're right on Vic as a recruiter, but that was a peripheral focus of my argument. I think he's a very good recruiter, I just don't think he's Dawn or Mulkey on the recruiting front. That partly has to do with Starkville, like you said. But also I think...... Walz', Dawn's, or Mulkey's perception in the world of elite athletics is stronger where Vic is seen as more of a niche kinda dude that's not the first coach generally on people's minds. Although it does seem like a lot of the Southeast players lately all the way to Texas at least considers MSU.

 

[oldude]

I have to smile at the argument that a school should go after a “big name coach” every time a top program has a coaching vacancy. I heard it at TN, and now at MS St. Walz must love the attention.

For the record, when Louisville hired Walz he had never been a HC. MM, Graves & Staley were all hired from lesser programs to their current jobs. As everyone on this board should be aware, the greatest coach in the history of WBB never worked as a HC before a school with a struggling WBB program in Storrs, CT took a risk, offering a job to an unproven guy named Luigi, that looked like an extra from Saturday Night Fever, some 35 years ago.

 

[GoDawgs4]

I get amused that people say that Starkvegas is difficult to recruit to. What a bunch of bunk. In the 1950-1960’s, yes it was like a Mayberry tucked away, hard to get to and there was nothing to do.

Nowadays, you have 3 four lane highways crisscrossing it, plenty of entertainment, restaurants, hotels, good air service etc. It much easier to get to these days.
The area has grown exponentially but still has a lot of small town charm.

WBB at State has developed a great fan following which will continue with the new coach. These fans are smart as well and they understand a transition is going to be painful and take some time even with a great roster.

But the location of the university is not a hindrance anymore and in fact it might actually be an asset.

 

[DeeHusky]

I get amused that people say that Starkvegas is difficult to recruit to. What a bunch of bunk. In the 1950-1960’s, yes it was like a Mayberry tucked away, hard to get to and there was nothing to do.

Nowadays, you have 3 four lane highways crisscrossing it, plenty of entertainment, restaurants, hotels, good air service etc. It much easier to get to these days.
The area has grown exponentially but still has a lot of small town charm.

WBB at State has developed a great fan following which will continue with the new coach. These fans are smart as well and they understand a transition is going to be painful and take some time even with a great roster.

But the location of the university is not a hindrance anymore and in fact it might actually be an asset.

The fact that you don’t think young girls from big cities with the opportunity to go to many other places to come play in Mississippi is hard is amusing. It’s Mississippi!!!.... of all places.

 

[garddog]

It is official now.

Nikki McCray-Penson Named Mississippi State’s Eighth Women’s Basketball Coach - Mississippi State

Nikki McCray-Penson , considered one of the top rising stars in women's college basketball having both playing and coaching experience in multiple Final Four...

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