Mandel: Big Ten Fighting for Survival

[UConn9604]

Unfortunately I has a very similar feeling after reading. Two other thoughts that popped in my head:

1. Delaney from South Orange, NJ - helps explain Rutgers addition?
2. I felt it was almost comical when Mandel (who I like) tried to talk up RU sports with the Woman's BB team going to a couple Final 4's half a decade ago and the pumping of a nationally ranked Wrestling Squad - unintentional comedy

#2 made me want to throw up. It's like everyone is ignoring Godzilla in the room.

 

[TerryD]

What your post fails to mention is that ND trolled around for a hybrid deal and the only conference that would give them one was the ACC. As I have posted before, the resentment will build in the ACC when clearly superior football programs (FSU, Clemson etc.) witness an underachieving, passé program get special benefits because of ancient history. It's not that ND wants to focus on the southeast, it is because that is where the conference that got sucked into the ND web is located. If Delany et al and the B1G allowed ND to "half commit" to the conference, ND would have happily talked about the importance of maintaining historic rivalries with Mich, MSU etc. Look, it's simple - you guys hoodwinked the ACC. For that I'll tip my hat. But please - no self justification of an obvious self-centered move gets ND the special treatment that it feels entitled to.

The Big 12 was in talks for a partial ND deal, too. ND rejected further talks with the Big 12 to sign the deal with the ACC.

Big 12 officials were caught by surprise by the ND/ACC deal

"Big 12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby and former Big 12 interim Commissioner Chuck Neinas "both had conversations" with Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick about joining the conference, including keeping the school "in the loop about the Big 12's decision to partner with the SEC on the Champions Bowl, which will begin New Year's Night 2015." The conversations "had included Notre Dame playing up to six games against Big 12 schools." A source said, "No one is going to say it publicly, but this is a bit of a surprise and a big disappointment. We thought Notre Dame would be able to pursue its own network in the Big 12 and be a great fit here."

www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Da...ges/Big-12.aspx

(and no, I don't think that ND would have accepted a partial Big Ten deal over a partial ACC deal, for a number of reasons, enmity, "regionalization", recruiting, Southeast and East Coast exposure, etc..)


My post is UConn related because it responds to the original post and the linked article about how demographics is driving the Big Ten's expansion. It wants to move south but may be blocked by the ACC's GOR. That may have implications for UConn's CR hopes.

It may be that UConn is ultimately better off, recruiting and competition wise, in the ACC. I hope it gets there.

 

[NickyNewark]

If your question begins with a "who's achieved less?" the answer is always Rutgers..

no it isn't....its the ACC or you're school!! Btw you're OT or/and jealous Cusefan.

 

[NickyNewark]

If your question begins with a "who's achieved less?" the answer is always Rutgers..

And even by you're standards you've made my point....if it was RU who got into the B1G with such "low" underachieving isn't that in itself quite an achievement?Check+ Mate! You really are a sour loser.

 

[UConn9604]

no it isn't....its the ACC or you're school!! Btw you're OT or/and jealous Cusefan.

Nick, I like your style but I'd advise against entering into a game of "who's achieved less" with anyone other than a Cubs fan if I were you.

 

[Pudge]

View attachment 6228


ND agrees with the article. It has shifted its recruiting focus sharply to the Southeast.

There are no non-home ND games scheduled in the Midwest the next three seasons.

The Purdue game is a "Shamrock Series" ND home game moved to Indianapolis.

ND wants to play football games in the Southeast, Southwest and East Coast for recruiting exposure.

Besides these games, ND and Georgia are close to announcing a series.

The Big Ten is of no help to ND here, quite the opposite. That is one reason why ND doesn't mind jettisoning annual games against Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue.

It wants the flexibility to add more games in the South and West in lieu of Big Ten games.

Terry ... I'm Irish & grew up on Lindsey Nelson after Mass while sitting with my Dad.

But ... at this point ... I don't give a Flying duck what ND is doing. Radix malorem est cupiditas (greed is the root of all evil). I just think the Irish have overplayed their hand & they just aren't that good a Program anymore.

 

[dayooper]

Nick, I like your style but I'd advise against entering into a game of "who's achieved less" with anyone other than a Cubs fan if I were you.

Ummm . . . How about us Detroit Lions fans. Were so pathetic that you forgot about us. Our achieving less is legendary. The only 0-16 season (after going undefeated in the preseason), one playoff win, the only original NFL team never to make the Super Bowl. We are so pathetic that we forced one of, if not the greatest running back of all time into early retirement. Yet we continue to sell out the stadium. Cubs? I laugh at your patheticness. We have all of you beat in spades.

 

[Dooley]

Ummm . . . How about us Detroit Lions fans. Were so pathetic that you forgot about us. Our achieving less is legendary. The only 0-16 season (after going undefeated in the preseason), one playoff win, the only original NFL team never to make the Super Bowl. We are so pathetic that we forced one of, if not the greatest running back of all time into early retirement. Yet we continue to sell out the stadium. Cubs? I laugh at your patheticness. We have all of you beat in spades.

This made me laugh out loud. I'm still upset over Barry's strange retirement and I'm not a Lions fan. Loved watching him play!

 

[NickyNewark]

Nick, I like your style but I'd advise against entering into a game of "who's achieved less" with anyone other than a Cubs fan if I were you.

Thanks UConn9603 but the question was not what school but conference and by anyones standards to deflect the futility of his ACC(which is abysmal and worse than the old BE) he chose to get "personal" and unless he's a FSU or Clampson fan in FB his schools historical record better be better than 52.5% winning which already makes mine better than 5 of the 14 B1G schools which shows either sour grape's or worse. I mean really all those years when RU was practically playing an Ivy schedule yet they took on behemoths with great results with D2 type players! I am a proud fan going back to Frank Burns and Jacque LaPrairie and won't take crap from these clowns who were taken aback by JD and his brilliant move IMO.So many of these big mouths are fans of grandfathered lightweights with no REAL history so they try looking for an easy mark! It ain't me. Thank's for you're concern and I'd do the same and have on national boards to defend you guys(if needed) lol! I hate arrogance.

 

[whaler11]

Thanks UConn9603 but the question was not what school but conference and by anyones standards to deflect the futility of his ACC(which is abysimal and worse than the old BE) he chose to get "personal" and unless he's a FSU or Clampson fan in FB his schools historical record better be better than 52.5% winning which already makes mine better than 9 of the 14 B1G schools which shows either sour grape's or worse. I mean really all those years when RU was practically playing an Ivy schedule yet they took on behemoths with great results with D2 type players! I am a proud fan going back to Frank Burns and Jacque LaPrairie and won't take crap from these clowns who were taken aback by JD and his brilliant move IMO.So many of these big mouths are fans of grandfathered lightweights with no REAL history so they try looking for an easy mark! It ain't me. Thank's for you're concern and I'd do the same and have on national boards to defend you guys(if needed) lol! I hate arrogance.

Arrogance bad. Stupidity good.

 

[NickyNewark]

Ummm . . . How about us Detroit Lions fans. Were so pathetic that you forgot about us. Our achieving less is legendary. The only 0-16 season (after going undefeated in the preseason), one playoff win, the only original NFL team never to make the Super Bowl. We are so pathetic that we forced one of, if not the greatest running back of all time into early retirement. Yet we continue to sell out the stadium. Cubs? I laugh at your patheticness. We have all of you beat in spades.

Maybe so but I ALWAYS choose Calvin Johnson for my fantasy FB leagues and do well! I love(after my Jints) the Lions and they do have some followers down here...my nephew is a big Lions fan and its only a matter of time with the drafts they been having lately!

 

[ebucklewis]

Thanks UConn9603 but the question was not what school but conference and by anyones standards to deflect the futility of his ACC(which is abysimal and worse than the old BE) he chose to get "personal" and unless he's a FSU or Clampson fan in FB his schools historical record better be better than 52.5% winning which already makes mine better than 9 of the 14 B1G schools which shows either sour grape's or worse. I mean really all those years when RU was practically playing an Ivy schedule yet they took on behemoths with great results with D2 type players! I am a proud fan going back to Frank Burns and Jacque LaPrairie and won't take crap from these clowns who were taken aback by JD and his brilliant move IMO.So many of these big mouths are fans of grandfathered lightweights with no REAL history so they try looking for an easy mark! It ain't me. Thank's for you're concern and I'd do the same and have on national boards to defend you guys(if needed) lol! I hate arrogance.

I suspect the fans of every school seem arrogant to Rutgers fans. Did I understand your post correctly - you used the term "historical" - don't you mean "hysterical" ?

 

[NickyNewark]

I wonder what happened with that ACC clown ebubbalewis since I put him on ignore? What wonders modern technology is(ignore button)!Peace in the yard at last!! I highly recommend it for clown removal purposes.

 

[kyleslamb]

The Big 12 was in talks for a partial ND deal, too. ND rejected further talks with the Big 12 to sign the deal with the ACC.

Big 12 officials were caught by surprise by the ND/ACC deal

"Big 12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby and former Big 12 interim Commissioner Chuck Neinas "both had conversations" with Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick about joining the conference, including keeping the school "in the loop about the Big 12's decision to partner with the SEC on the Champions Bowl, which will begin New Year's Night 2015." The conversations "had included Notre Dame playing up to six games against Big 12 schools." A source said, "No one is going to say it publicly, but this is a bit of a surprise and a big disappointment. We thought Notre Dame would be able to pursue its own network in the Big 12 and be a great fit here."

www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Da...ges/Big-12.aspx

(and no, I don't think that ND would have accepted a partial Big Ten deal over a partial ACC deal, for a number of reasons, enmity, "regionalization", recruiting, Southeast and East Coast exposure, etc..)


My post is UConn related because it responds to the original post and the linked article about how demographics is driving the Big Ten's expansion. It wants to move south but may be blocked by the ACC's GOR. That may have implications for UConn's CR hopes.

It may be that UConn is ultimately better off, recruiting and competition wise, in the ACC. I hope it gets there.

While I'm not claiming they had their mind made up, I can tell you that Notre Dame absolutely came to the Big Ten asking for a partial deal like the one the ACC offered just months prior to going to the ACC.

The Big Ten, of course, rejected that and countered with an offer for a gradual full-membership plan. Notre Dame rejected that and inquired about joining the Big Ten for hockey only. The Big Ten reiterated its position, and the rest was history.

The point here is that Notre Dame has portrayed after the fact the ACC was its desired destination, but it strongly flirted with the Big Ten looking for the same sort of partial membership. Obviously the additions of Rutgers and Maryland had quite a bit to do with that, as it gave an East coast presence Notre Dame was looking for. But nonetheless, it did absolutely go to the Big Ten with the hopes of getting the ACC type of deal.

 

[SouthronCross]

Once UNC is presented with the opportunity too good to pass up, and K retires, Duke will be left to fend for itself. That's a shame.

As long as the ACC is stable...which means that as long as UNC, UVA, CU, and FSU are happy...Carolina is not going anywhere.

Duke was good before K got there, and, as much as I hate to admit it, will be good after he leaves. They will not let their bread-and-butter basketball program rot away to nothing.

 

[TerryD]

While I'm not claiming they had their mind made up, I can tell you that Notre Dame absolutely came to the Big Ten asking for a partial deal like the one the ACC offered just months prior to going to the ACC.

The Big Ten, of course, rejected that and countered with an offer for a gradual full-membership plan. Notre Dame rejected that and inquired about joining the Big Ten for hockey only. The Big Ten reiterated its position, and the rest was history.

The point here is that Notre Dame has portrayed after the fact the ACC was its desired destination, but it strongly flirted with the Big Ten looking for the same sort of partial membership. Obviously the additions of Rutgers and Maryland had quite a bit to do with that, as it gave an East coast presence Notre Dame was looking for. But nonetheless, it did absolutely go to the Big Ten with the hopes of getting the ACC type of deal.

While I'm not claiming they had their mind made up, I can tell you that Notre Dame absolutely came to the Big Ten asking for a partial deal like the one the ACC offered just months prior to going to the ACC.

The Big Ten, of course, rejected that and countered with an offer for a gradual full-membership plan. Notre Dame rejected that and inquired about joining the Big Ten for hockey only. The Big Ten reiterated its position, and the rest was history.

The point here is that Notre Dame has portrayed after the fact the ACC was its desired destination, but it strongly flirted with the Big Ten looking for the same sort of partial membership. Obviously the additions of Rutgers and Maryland had quite a bit to do with that, as it gave an East coast presence Notre Dame was looking for. But nonetheless, it did absolutely go to the Big Ten with the hopes of getting the ACC type of deal.

ND was already committed to the partial ACC deal when Rutgers and Maryland were added, no? ND announced the ACC deal in September 2012.

ND went to the Big 12 for a partial deal too. They used that to leverage the ACC deal, playing one conference off against another.

 

[clmssun]

While I'm not claiming they had their mind made up, I can tell you that Notre Dame absolutely came to the Big Ten asking for a partial deal like the one the ACC offered just months prior to going to the ACC.

The Big Ten, of course, rejected that and countered with an offer for a gradual full-membership plan. Notre Dame rejected that and inquired about joining the Big Ten for hockey only. The Big Ten reiterated its position, and the rest was history.

The point here is that Notre Dame has portrayed after the fact the ACC was its desired destination, but it strongly flirted with the Big Ten looking for the same sort of partial membership. Obviously the additions of Rutgers and Maryland had quite a bit to do with that, as it gave an East coast presence Notre Dame was looking for. But nonetheless, it did absolutely go to the Big Ten with the hopes of getting the ACC type of deal.

Just as TerryD shared the corroboration of ND's inquiry with Big XII, it makes sense that ND would inquire with B1G in a similar manner as Big XII (and similar to final deal struck with ACC). Any smart person/business shops around for the best deal to gauge the market; understand, however, that even if Big XII or B1G "matched the deal" of the ACC (full schedule of olympic sports and partial schedule of football) in terms of athletic scheduling, there are other things the ACC offers Notre Dame that Big XII and B1G cannot match.

1) Does anyone dispute that Notre Dame sought greater East Coast exposure?
-- the Big XII could not match that
-- historically, the B1G could not match that....

So the B1G adds Rutgers and Maryland...
2) Does anyone think Notre Dame's "history" with Rutgers and Maryland compares to Notre Dame's long history with Georgia Tech, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, as well as recent history Boston College, Florida State, and Miami?

Given Notre Dame's assertive, self-serving nature (with the resources and results to corroborate and support that nature), I'd conjecture that Notre Dame approached the B1G seeking the impossible deal, "knowing" they'd be rejected, but giving it the ol' college try to gauge the market for their negotiations with their long-preferred suitor, the ACC.

None of this matters if the B1G is happy with the Rutgers and Maryland additions and happy without Notre Dame's partial membership. But there is not unanimity on this perspective, and thus we have great discussions on boards like this.

 

[dayooper]

Maybe so but I ALWAYS choose Calvin Johnson for my fantasy FB leagues and do well! I love(after my Jints) the Lions and they do have some followers down here...my nephew is a big Lions fan and its only a matter of time with the drafts they been having lately!

Yup, been saying that for my 40 years on this Earth. Hell has frozen over and The Lions are still Super Bowlless.

BTW - Hell is in Michigan. We also have Paradise and Climax.

 

[TerryD]

Yup, been saying that for my 40 years on this Earth. Hell has frozen over and The Lions are still Super Bowlless.

BTW - Hell is in Michigan. We also have Paradise and Climax.

I can sympathize a bit with Lions fans, in a way. I am a lifelong (I am 56) Pittsburgh Pirates fan and the last twenty years were tough to take, to say the least.

 

[businesslawyer]

Ahhh...the basketball board

That would be funny Einstein if you were visiting on our football board. You're not.

 

[kyleslamb]

Just as TerryD shared the corroboration of ND's inquiry with Big XII, it makes sense that ND would inquire with B1G in a similar manner as Big XII (and similar to final deal struck with ACC). Any smart person/business shops around for the best deal to gauge the market; understand, however, that even if Big XII or B1G "matched the deal" of the ACC (full schedule of olympic sports and partial schedule of football) in terms of athletic scheduling, there are other things the ACC offers Notre Dame that Big XII and B1G cannot match.

1) Does anyone dispute that Notre Dame sought greater East Coast exposure?
-- the Big XII could not match that
-- historically, the B1G could not match that....

So the B1G adds Rutgers and Maryland...
2) Does anyone think Notre Dame's "history" with Rutgers and Maryland compares to Notre Dame's long history with Georgia Tech, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, as well as recent history Boston College, Florida State, and Miami?

Given Notre Dame's assertive, self-serving nature (with the resources and results to corroborate and support that nature), I'd conjecture that Notre Dame approached the B1G seeking the impossible deal, "knowing" they'd be rejected, but giving it the ol' college try to gauge the market for their negotiations with their long-preferred suitor, the ACC.

None of this matters if the B1G is happy with the Rutgers and Maryland additions and happy without Notre Dame's partial membership. But there is not unanimity on this perspective, and thus we have great discussions on boards like this.

You left out Notre Dame's history with Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, etc. and a Notre Dame-Penn State series would be huge if it were ever sustained. For the record, Northwestern and Notre Dame have played more than Georgia Tech has played Notre Dame. Frankly, Georgia Tech and Syracuse aren't really 'rivals' of Notre Dame. They're just teams that have played somewhat recently. Boston College is a rival, no question. But you took some awfully big liberties with some of those teams.

 

[1husky]

Unfortunately I has a very similar feeling after reading. Two other thoughts that popped in my head:

1. Delaney from South Orange, NJ - helps explain Rutgers addition?
2. I felt it was almost comical when Mandel (who I like) tried to talk up RU sports with the Woman's BB team going to a couple Final 4's half a decade ago and the pumping of a nationally ranked Wrestling Squad - unintentional comedy

Funny that he just took a job with Fox after 15 years with SI and suddenly Rutgers is an up and comer with amazing potential and recent success! What a joke. Mandel is a /whore like most of these national writers.

 

[buddy]

Haters hate...winners win....and, well you know.

FSU and BC hate. UConn wins.

 

[Gampeltiles]

Once UNC is presented with the opportunity too good to pass up, and K retires, Duke will be left to fend for itself. That's a shame.

Whoooaaa-----Puke? Dook? The rich kids that play in an outdated, shack that is looked upon as Holy Grail by Dickie V and the Raleigh/Durham mouthpieces at ESPN?

Like Rod Sellers I will never forgive them for stealing our chance for getting to our first FF during the "dream season". I had to wait 9 freakin' years.

"a shame", now we worry about them? They will be just fine, as will the ACC because they are riddled with enough SOB's that they won't ever fail.

That's what Delany sees, football rivals are more intense than basketball rivals and he has watered
down his conference more than enough.

Which is why the B1G is done expanding and why, we, as Nat'l Champs are still reliant (to a degree) on Dook as a rival, and like it or not as a lifeline.

 

[clmssun]

Yes, I got my wires crossed on Syracuse.

I omitted Michigan, Michigan State, and Purdue because my point in addressing your claims about Notre Dame and B1G/ACC was that ND sought greater exposure on the East Coast; those schools do not help that cause, nor does Northwestern. Yes, Penn State is easterly-located and has a long history of playing East Coast teams themselves (particularly prior to B1G membership), but they are far below Pittsburgh and, yes, Georgia Tech in Notre Dame's all-time scheduling. (And due to the ACC/B1G issues, Georgia Tech and Pittsburgh have much more East Coast focus than Penn State, which has a broader national appeal.) While I was wrong about Syracuse, I was not wrong that Rutgers and Maryland have very little history with Notre Dame.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

... It seems the ACC is at the bottom of the Power 5 in terms of revenue, but it is not because of the private status of Duke, Miami, or Notre Dame. Yes, Wake and BC (and perhaps Cuse) add little benefit, but other conferences have dogs who just happen to be public...

Here's the thing, Clem. We know this is about football with you. We know that Clemson voted for Louisville over us because of football but the fact that you're over here bragging on your (supposedly) "hot" new girlfriend (Notre Dame) while she's still spreading her legs for other guys makes you look foolish, pathetic, and impotent. Your arguments would be better couched without references to Notre Dame where you could at least hope others won't be reminded you're a cuckold.

 

[NickyNewark]

Here's the thing, Clem. We know this is about football with you. We know that Clemson voted for Louisville over us because of football but the fact that you're over here bragging on your (supposedly) "hot" new girlfriend (Notre Dame) while she's still spreading her legs for other guys makes you look foolish, pathetic, and impotent. Your arguments would be better couched without references to Notre Dame where you could at least hope others won't be reminded you're a cuckold.

Yeah my mom's Irish catholic and I grew up in NJ on ND BUT why do people nationally still have the impression anyone gives a sheet here in NYC metro about ND? If anything those of us left here tired of their shenanigans have grown bitter and root against them now! I can still see the article in the despised NSL about BK begging Savon Huggins not to drop ND from his recruiting list to save NDs image..ND? beggin?...exposed!! Everyone knew overrated or not he WAS a top 3 national RB out of HS and was going to stay home but not ND....they figured.. "ef NJ " THEY were ND...that lost them a boatload of respect here in NY metro and most of us east coast Irish have moved south anyway!! The Boston area might be their last ethnic stronghold as the Irish are mostly americans now and only the most hardcore Irish give a sheet! Now we root our American heart as we realize its all media driven garbage anyway about ND....I respect there history yet despise their using my heritage to divide my heart against my love of home. I do love there fightsong though.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Yeah my mom's Irish catholic and I grew up in NJ on ND BUT why do people nationally still have the impression anyone gives a sheet here in NYC metro about ND? If anything those of us left here tired of their shenanigans have grown bitter and root against them now! I can still see the article in the despised NSL about BK begging Savon Huggins not to drop ND from his recruiting list to save NDs image..ND? beggin?...exposed!! Everyone knew overrated or not he WAS a top 3 national RB out of HS and was going to stay home but not ND....they figured.. "ef NJ " THEY were ND...that lost them a boatload of respect here in NY metro and most of us east coast Irish have moved south anyway!! The Boston area might be their last ethnic stronghold as the Irish are mostly americans now and only the most hardcore Irish give a sheet! Now we root our American heart as we realize its all media driven garbage anyway about ND....I respect there history yet despise their using my heritage to divide my heart against my love of home. I do love there fightsong though.

I respect Notre Dame and all they've accomplished. I disrespect guys who pretend to be happy providing them special circumstances. The Big East lived life as an open marriage: the football guys and their Catholic "friends with benefits." The ACC is now living life as a kegger with the football guys dedicating themselves to a strumpet in fishnets and a padded bra.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I see that folks do not get my point...it is not about repping FSU...

It is about whether a program can compete (even in the ACC)...or whether comparative conference talk is all that when it comes to an individual program.

Just how disadvantaged is a team like FSU by not playing in the Big Ten or SEC?


No doubt that the Big Ten brings in the moola. And has for some time with their huge fan bases.

The Big Ten has only won 2 Football National Championships since 1970,

The Big Ten has only won 1 Men's Basketball Championship in the past 25 years.



If...If the purpose of an athletic program is to win the mythical money title....Texas and the Big Ten teams will have it locked up for a decade or more.

Maybe the new measure for team success is:

1. Money

2. Money

3. Extra money

4. Exposure for the school to make more Money

5. Even more money to try and win mythical money title

you nailed it. money is the only thing to count since the BCS came about.
Since then, every change has been a thinly veiled money grab by those with the power to do so.

 

[itgoeslike]

I agree with your point...

If a team can recruit...a team can compete regardless of conference.

And, while it helps to sit in a national recruiting hotbed like Florida...teams now must go national.

Even FSU has their starting QB from Alabama, backup from Pennsylvania, starting OG from Georgia, other starting OG from New Jersey, a starting OT from Georgia, 2nd TE from New Jersey, starting DE's from Texas and Alabama, starting DT from Washington, DC, starting Safeties from Maryland and Georgia.

I think that a team like UConn or Rutgers can succeed on the big stage....but to do so they will have to successfully recruit nationally for great athletes.

UConn just landed 6 recruits in 8 days. At that rate, UConn should have well over 100 commits by Thanksgiving putting it only slightly behind the average SEC school, which average 6X commits to actual scholarships.