Mandel: Big Ten Fighting for Survival | The Boneyard

Mandel: Big Ten Fighting for Survival

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
2,861
Reaction Score
1,888
If this piece is accurate, unless the Big Ten values basketball in its quest for survival, our chances of receiving an invite probably remain low.

Much of Connecticut has a great deal in common with the demographics of the midwestern states (shrinking, getting older) and if Big Ten schools' fans object to adding Rutgers or Maryland, they may not have the stomach to add another Rutgers or Maryland in football, even if it is accompanied by a pair of world-class basketball programs.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140618/big-ten-expansion/
 

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
56,982
Reaction Score
208,847
I don't know..."we're not going to visit the east, we're going to live in the east..." Delany says, "That's not a compelling comment to me. If the standard for expansion is you have to bring in Nebraska or Penn State, no one's ever going to expand. There's only a couple of those out there."

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140618/big-ten-expansion/#ixzz3511vk5wf

I think that he's seeing a bigger picture than most. I think he views us as an option. Whether we are a likely option is unknown.
 
Last edited:

Husky25

Dink & Dunk beat the Greatest Show on Turf.
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
18,523
Reaction Score
19,509
Of course Delany thinks Rutgers and Maryland have potential. There is nowhere to go but up.
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
693
Reaction Score
1,350
I don't know..."we're not going to visit the east, we're going to live in the east..." Delany says, "That's not a compelling comment to me. If the standard for expansion is you have to bring in Nebraska or Penn State, no one's ever going to expand. There's only a couple of those out there."

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140618/big-ten-expansion/#ixzz3511vk5wf

I think that he's seeing a bigger picture than most. I think he views us as an option. Whether we are a likely option is unknown.

I don't claim to know what the Big Ten *will* do, nor do I claim to know much of the details of the who/what/where/when, etc. However, I have said repeatedly and I stand by it... I do feel *very* strongly that UConn is most definitely an option that has been discussed the last couple years. Because of how they want to approach expansion (preferably done contiguously and outward), Connecticut, Kansas and Virginia are the most likely first options. If there are scenarios that wind up yielding Texas and/or North Carolina, I'm sure they'd explore those too. But they really seem to value the gradual expansion into new markets as it seems more authentic a fit.
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
173
Reaction Score
308
I don't claim to know what the Big Ten *will* do, nor do I claim to know much of the details of the who/what/where/when, etc. However, I have said repeatedly and I stand by it... I do feel *very* strongly that UConn is most definitely an option that has been discussed the last couple years. Because of how they want to approach expansion (preferably done contiguously and outward), Connecticut, Kansas and Virginia are the most likely first options. If there are scenarios that wind up yielding Texas and/or North Carolina, I'm sure they'd explore those too. But they really seem to value the gradual expansion into new markets as it seems more authentic a fit.

I agree. I have to believe that BIG Blue Bloods (Michigan, Ohio State, etc) would not feel that way if UCONN was added instead of Rutgers or Maryland. UCONN has won national championships and it's an up & coming university, even if it will take a few years to become credible in football again. To Delany it's all able TV sets but to BIG fans it's about performnce (academic & athletic). The BIG posters on this site are as enthusiastic about us getting an invite as we are.
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
693
Reaction Score
1,350
I agree. I have to believe that BIG Blue Bloods (Michigan, Ohio State, etc) would not feel that way if UCONN was added instead of Rutgers or Maryland. UCONN has won national championships and it's an up & coming university, even if it will take a few years to become credible in football again. To Delany it's all able TV sets but to BIG fans it's about performnce (academic & athletic). The BIG posters on this site are as enthusiastic about us getting an invite as we are.

I disagree on only one point: while I might agree that Delany is only worried about TV sets, the presidents are worried about TV sets and academics (notably research). They really love the CIC and are looking for partners that can make the CIC even stronger. I think the fans love the academic prestige, but at the end of the day I think they're more worried about competitive performance. A lot of Big Ten fans, when they had a chance to land Oklahoma two years ago, were upset the Big Ten didn't go after them.

You're right though that TV sets and research are fueling the Big Ten's plans. I've seen a big shift in the perception of UConn from Big Ten fans the last two years. The championships in basketball definitely have helped change the perception. Having a successful season again in football would go a long way to really putting them over the top with the fans. With the league, I would guess that these plans for a new research park is really going to help with the presidents.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
172
Reaction Score
136
You know who is fighting for survival? Mid sized private institutions. Scale always wins, always. I'm looking at you BC, Cuse, Duke, Wake and Miami or a good portion of the gACC

Which "scale"?

For student body and alumni bases, the B1G's "scale" reigns supreme. That large student body and alumni base has contributed to their wealthy coffers. B1G is widely viewed as tops in academic quality among Power 5. Athletic success, particularly football? Hardly.

For demographics, markets, and geographic footprint, the ACC's "scale" reigns supreme. The ACC, though degrading itself with Louisville, also stands tall in academic quality rankings. As discussed ad nauseam here, the ACC's media packages are at the bottom of the Power 5, even though an ACC school just won the football BCS championship, and the ACC is loaded with basketball history and tradition (but not much tourney success lately).

In terms of student body, alumni base, academic quality, demographics, and markets, the SEC is not at the top of anything. Their footprint demographics are growing quite nicely, and their footprint is exceptionally fertile for high school football, however. With few "large markets", they get high ratings and receive high television revenues. Just about the only "scale" the SEC wins is the most important one in the conference alignment discussion: BCS football championships.

While the ACC does have many more private schools than other Power 5 conferences, all Power 5 conferences have some. Some of the biggest names in college athletics -- historically/traditionally and present day, football and basketball -- are private schools. Private schools often rank highly in "wealthy alumni base" rankings, academic quality rankings, and they have had great success athletically, too.

It seems the ACC is at the bottom of the Power 5 in terms of revenue, but it is not because of the private status of Duke, Miami, or Notre Dame. Yes, Wake and BC (and perhaps Cuse) add little benefit, but other conferences have dogs who just happen to be public.

The Big XII has only Baylor and TCU as private, but its "scale" of demographics and television markets is so poor, most folks cite it as the most unstable conference (even though their revenue is near the top).

The only "scale" the Pac-12 reigns supreme in is "presence in the western United States"; beyond that, they are very "average" amongst the Power 5. But that "scale" is enough to ensure that they will not fade away. The Pac-12's two private schools are superb academically, athletically, alumni wealth...
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
3,945
Reaction Score
18,482
Which "scale"?

For student body and alumni bases, the B1G's "scale" reigns supreme. That large student body and alumni base has contributed to their wealthy coffers. B1G is widely viewed as tops in academic quality among Power 5. Athletic success, particularly football? Hardly.

For demographics, markets, and geographic footprint, the ACC's "scale" reigns supreme. The ACC, though degrading itself with Louisville, also stands tall in academic quality rankings. As discussed ad nauseam here, the ACC's media packages are at the bottom of the Power 5, even though an ACC school just won the football BCS championship, and the ACC is loaded with basketball history and tradition (but not much tourney success lately).

In terms of student body, alumni base, academic quality, demographics, and markets, the SEC is not at the top of anything. Their footprint demographics are growing quite nicely, and their footprint is exceptionally fertile for high school football, however. With few "large markets", they get high ratings and receive high television revenues. Just about the only "scale" the SEC wins is the most important one in the conference alignment discussion: BCS football championships.

While the ACC does have many more private schools than other Power 5 conferences, all Power 5 conferences have some. Some of the biggest names in college athletics -- historically/traditionally and present day, football and basketball -- are private schools. Private schools often rank highly in "wealthy alumni base" rankings, academic quality rankings, and they have had great success athletically, too.

It seems the ACC is at the bottom of the Power 5 in terms of revenue, but it is not because of the private status of Duke, Miami, or Notre Dame. Yes, Wake and BC (and perhaps Cuse) add little benefit, but other conferences have dogs who just happen to be public.

The Big XII has only Baylor and TCU as private, but its "scale" of demographics and television markets is so poor, most folks cite it as the most unstable conference (even though their revenue is near the top).

The only "scale" the Pac-12 reigns supreme in is "presence in the western United States"; beyond that, they are very "average" amongst the Power 5. But that "scale" is enough to ensure that they will not fade away. The Pac-12's two private schools are superb academically, athletically, alumni wealth...

BC, Cuse, Wake and Miami are nothing more than Villanova or Georgetown without the scale and the TV sets that FSU, VA Tech, UNC and NC State bring. All I'm saying is that if the shiite starts hitting the fan again related to CR, they are in a bad place if the larger state schools start running. As to the other privates, none of the gACC privates have the resources, reputation or scale of a Stanford or Northwestern.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
121
Reaction Score
152
I agree. I have to believe that BIG Blue Bloods (Michigan, Ohio State, etc) would not feel that way if UCONN was added instead of Rutgers or Maryland. UCONN has won national championships and it's an up & coming university, even if it will take a few years to become credible in football again. To Delany it's all able TV sets but to BIG fans it's about performnce (academic & athletic). The BIG posters on this site are as enthusiastic about us getting an invite as we are.

I understand that UConn has its four basketball titles and I'm jealous of those, but the B1G blue bloods had a chance to invite Connecticut and elected not to.
 

pj

Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
8,620
Reaction Score
25,052
I understand that UConn has its four basketball titles and I'm jealous of those, but the B1G blue bloods had a chance to invite Connecticut and elected not to.

The ACC had many chances to invite Cuse, Pitt, and L'ville, and elected not to - until they did.
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
693
Reaction Score
1,350
For demographics, markets, and geographic footprint, the ACC's "scale" reigns supreme.

You won't find anyone in the industry that actually agrees with this statement.

The ACC's claim is that it has overtaken the Big Ten in number of households in the footprint. I have not seen this independently verified. However, while I don't dispute its truthfulness, it doesn't mean the ACC's markets/demographics/footprint "reigns supreme."

Half of the ACC is comprised of small, private schools as you have already noted in your point about alumni base. The fact is, Boston College or Georgia Tech (even being a public institution) being located in Boston and Atlanta does not make those two a very strong market. Fact of the matter is, as an Atlanta resident, I can promise you Georgia Tech is nothing more than a blip on the radar with most of the city. It's a transient city comprised of folks around the country with a school made up of a large out-of-state population and graduates that move on to other states. The ACC will claim the entire state of Georgia in its footprint, but it does not remotely compare to Iowa having the whole state in its footprint despite fewer people.

The Big Ten has a huge footprint, but unlike the ACC, it's a footprint that is due to having large, flagship universities that carry not only a large following in individual markets, but statewide. Miami, Boston College, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, etc. are only local phenomenons that simply don't have a large following and sometimes barely even move the needle in local markets.

The ACC might have a bigger footprint, but it definitely does not have better markets/demographics. If it did, it would be equal or ahead of the Big Ten in media revenue.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
172
Reaction Score
136
BC, Cuse, Wake and Miami are nothing more than Villanova or Georgetown without the scale and the TV sets that FSU, VA Tech, UNC and NC State bring. All I'm saying is that if the shiite starts hitting the fan again related to CR, they are in a bad place if the larger state schools start running. As to the other privates, none of the gACC privates have the resources, reputation or scale of a Stanford or Northwestern.

I think is fair to say that Stanford is the best academic school among the Power 5 (public or private) and Stanford has the best overall athletic program (see Director's Cups) among the Power 5 (public or private). No one measures up to Stanford.

As for Northwestern...
Terrific academics. Superior to Duke? In academics, it probably depends on the field of study, but I'd take Duke overall academically. And as for athletics, Duke wins hands down over Northwestern.

Miami has trouble bringing fans to the stands, but they do not have trouble bringing fans to the television sets.

Yes, BC and Wake are weak links, and Cuse's future is uncertain while its present is not as bright as its past. (And the irony, of course, is that some B1G fans claim Cuse and BC have high value in B1G metrics.)
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
8,509
Reaction Score
8,011
Scale didn't help Ohio State in its loss to Clemson in the Orange Bowl...

When I went to Michigan's Big House, FSU seated 42,000...I was in awe of the 100,000 plus crowd....but that big school scale did nothing to prevent FSU from scoring 51 points on a team that went undefeated in the Big Ten that year.

Wisconsin brings in tens of more millions than does FSU...has it helped? The only time that the two have met was in a recent bowl and FSU won by 29.

It is about recruiting....if you have an advantageous recruiting situation, scale goes out of the window.

You know...Wake, in the past, has beaten the eventual Big Ten Champ....
 
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
2,444
Reaction Score
1,020
Ah, okay.

You gots North Carolina and Virginia and then a whole lotta places where you play second fiddle.

See also, "Why you are not getting your own network."
I think Mandel was giving the ACC the credit for states where their in the SEC's footprint? Also all of NY to Cuse though its in the NY/NJ market...shoulda gave Cuse central NY only!
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
172
Reaction Score
136
You won't find anyone in the industry that actually agrees with this statement.

The ACC's claim is that it has overtaken the Big Ten in number of households in the footprint. I have not seen this independently verified. However, while I don't dispute its truthfulness, it doesn't mean the ACC's markets/demographics/footprint "reigns supreme."

The northeast's television viewership for college football lags most of the country (per capita), while the markets themselves are the largest in the country. Hence, B1G added Maryland and Rutgers while ACC has added BC, Cuse, and Pitt. Yes, it is cash that feeds the Bulldog (and not ratings points), and thus B1G-lovers can tout their lucrative additions. But I'd still wager that B1G ratings change very little in the Northeast. The B1G alumni that have long-lived in the northeast still live there; they have always watched their B1G, while comparatively-fewer northeasterners watch any college football at all (B1G,ACC,SEC,XII,Pac). What I'm saying is, if Delany and B1G alums had pressed their cable companies a little harder, they could have gotten BTN on their cable system without Delany having to add the "local" teams to "justify" it. I'll be very curious to see actual B1G viewership *additions* in light of adding RU and UMd.

Half of the ACC is comprised of small, private schools as you have already noted in your point about alumni base. The fact is, Boston College or Georgia Tech (even being a public institution) being located in Boston and Atlanta does not make those two a very strong market. Fact of the matter is, as an Atlanta resident, I can promise you Georgia Tech is nothing more than a blip on the radar with most of the city. It's a transient city comprised of folks around the country with a school made up of a large out-of-state population and graduates that move on to other states. The ACC will claim the entire state of Georgia in its footprint, but it does not remotely compare to Iowa having the whole state in its footprint despite fewer people.

1) And yet the B1G places high value on both BC and GT (and UVa and UNC).
2) Absolutely, Atlanta is a UGa town, and to a large extent, it is a "SEC" town; while not specifically a Tech town, Atlanta is also well represented by several ACC schools (though not as well as the rest of the SEC). If Delany thinks he can swoop into Atlanta and feed them "GT-Rutgers" or "GT-Northwestern" football and command high carriage fees for BTN, he is either a genuine, supremely confident magician or he is clinically insane.
3) Similar arguments for Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, Greenville-Spartanburg, Richmond. These cities have some B1G alums who watch their B1G events, These cities have loads of ACC alums who watch ACC events, and loads of SEC alums who watch SEC events. There are also numerous folks in these cities who just love the SEC.... and no, the B1G does not equal the SEC in their eyes. (and nor does the ACC equal the SEC in their eyes).

The Big Ten has a huge footprint, but unlike the ACC, it's a footprint that is due to having large, flagship universities that carry not only a large following in individual markets, but statewide.

Yes, the B1G has the states of Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio which have a demographic crisis on their hands, as Mandel describes.

Yes, the B1G also has Nebraska and Pennsylvania in the footprint, but any local fandom there is just gravy to the B1G, as it is the national drawing power of Penn State, Nebraska, Michigan, and Ohio State where the B1G's fortune has lain (and will continue to lie).

Miami, Boston College, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, etc. are only local phenomenons that simply don't have a large following and sometimes barely even move the needle in local markets.

Miami is a national brand who draw television viewers nationwide... just not locals into the stadium.

The ACC might have a bigger footprint, but it definitely does not have better markets/demographics. If it did, it would be equal or ahead of the Big Ten in media revenue.

That is a very complicated situation to assess. The Big XII gets more television revenue than the ACC while the ACC has higher television ratings -- due to those darn demographics! And yet the ratings do not correlate with the revenue... hence my "complicated" statement. As I have said here repeatedly, the ACC and ESPN are one another's swords, and thus far they are living by one another; if that changes, it will become evident in dramatic fashion. Delany deserves credit for his monetizing of the Big Ten Network. Delany felt that to further monetize the network (and address other concerns for B1G), he had to expand the footprint to have "local" teams in areas with better demographics than the traditional base (which is maxed out and lagging the rest of the country in growth), hence RU and UMd.
 
Joined
Mar 4, 2014
Messages
16,706
Reaction Score
19,931
You know who is fighting for survival? Mid sized private institutions. Scale always wins, always. I'm looking at you BC, Cuse, Duke, Wake and Miami or a good portion of the gACC
Once UNC is presented with the opportunity too good to pass up, and K retires, Duke will be left to fend for itself. That's a shame.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
91
Guests online
3,525
Total visitors
3,616

Forum statistics

Threads
157,040
Messages
4,078,435
Members
9,973
Latest member
WillngtnOak


Top Bottom