OT: Machado to the Padres 10 Yr/$300M



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Sox were never Little Sisters of the Poor. Usually Top 5. But the 'Evil Empire' thing came from the time when the Yankees blew the top off the budget and were crushing everybody in spending.

The difference was stark. Yanks spent about 30% more than the Sox over this period.

Yanks Sox
2014 204m 163m
2013 229m 151m
2012 198m 173m
2011 202m 162m
2010 206m 163m
2009 202m 123m
2008 209m 134m
2007 190m 143m
2006 195m 120m
2005 206m 121m
2004 183m 125m
2003 153m 100m
Who cares? Maybe Oakland can whine about it, certainly not the Red Sox. Red Sox were never not top 5 payroll, usually top 3. Yankees should start calling the Red Sox and Dodgers the evil empire.
 

whaler11

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Do they use a significant stats component? Absolutely. So would I. But with razor thin margins, attitude, mental makeup, clubhouse culture concerns etc. can make a huge difference.

There's a reason some guys 'can't play in NY or Boston'. Because those intangibles matter. Plenty of guys can't hack it there. Because none of this production happens in a vacuum. And these are human beings naturally ruled by mercurial minds.

I've no idea who's stats are better, but I'd sign Jeter over Machado in an instant, given what I know about the guys (which isn't everything to be sure).
tell everyone in 1988 hello for us
 

intlzncster

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Who cares? Maybe Oakland can whine about it, certainly not the Red Sox. Red Sox were never not top 5 payroll, usually top 3. Yankees should start calling the Red Sox and Dodgers the evil empire.
Who cares about spending 1/3 more on fielding a ball club? For more than a decade? I mean, everybody.
 

intlzncster

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tell everyone in 1988 hello for us
LOL. Some of the Sox statistical wonders signings have flamed out for a variety reason in Boston. Cause they couldn't hack it. By your estimation, they should have produced in a similar trend to their historical production*.

I love pretending the mental side of the sport doesn't matter. That's hilarious.

Statistical production is paramount, obviously, no one is claiming otherwise. But if you don't have the other stuff, you are gonna flame out.

*You went to the exact opposite end of the spectrum with: "stats don't matter". Which is obviously garbage. That's disingenuous and wasn't my argument in the first place.
 
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Who cares about spending 1/3 more on fielding a ball club? For more than a decade? I mean, everybody.
Again, the Red Sox were always top 5, usually top 2 or 3 in payroll and they were the ones whining. Again, Oakland has a case not the Red Sox. The Yankees payroll was 70 million less than the Red Sox this year, should they have been whining about it?
 
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So what kind of influence do you think a player with a $300 miilion contract who admits he does not hustle have on a clubhouse full of young players. Good luck Padres, the next team turmoil. Go Dodgers.
Honest question, has any of his former teammates said he he had an attitude problem?
 
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When you're highest paid player doesn't give af some of the time, and you even come out and say it, why should everyone else?

Not sure I've heard a legit star/leader say these sorts of things before. Can you imagine Jeter saying this? The way he played and carried himself is exactly opposite of that.

And I never said I wouldn't sign him. But I think you need a damn good/strong culture already in place. Showalter had an old school established culture, and I'm sure that helped. We'll see.

Pretending that club house dynamics and a myriad other non-statistical factors don't matter always cracks me up when it comes to pure stat guys.

Players aren't chess pieces. You can't just plug everything into a computer and expect it to give you the most optimal results.
There was another superstar like machado who didn’t always hustle. His name was Manny Ramirez and he worked out ok.
 

intlzncster

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Again, the Red Sox were always top 5, usually top 2 or 3 in payroll and they were the ones whining. Again, Oakland has a case not the Red Sox.
Of course. They are in the same division so they have to compete directly with that. Why should Oakland whine as much when they aren't?

And who cares if you're in the Top 5 when the other guy is spend 30% more. In the extrema: if you are 2nd in baseball, at $200million, and the other team spends $1 billion, you are going to complain. The absolute value matters.

The Yankees payroll was 70 million less than the Red Sox this year, should they have been whining about it?
The fans definitely should have.
 

whaler11

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Of course. They are in the same division so they have to compete directly with that. Why should Oakland whine as much when they aren't?

And who cares if you're in the Top 5 when the other guy is spend 30% more. In the extrema: if you are 2nd in baseball, at $200million, and the other team spends $1 billion, you are going to complain. The absolute value matters.



The fans definitely should have.
if you want to complain about what the red sox spend... you should cry to their ownership - because they dont care to spend more
 

intlzncster

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There was another superstar like machado who didn’t always hustle. His name was Manny Ramirez and he worked out ok.
That's fair. It can work. But it's not the norm. And the Sox had such a strong culture as to absorb that. Idk about San Diego. He'll probably be fine.

I'm more interested to see how he responds now that he's gotten the money. And now that he's hitting in Petco.
 
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intlzncster

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if you want to complain about what the red sox spend... you should cry to their ownership - because they dont care to spend more
I'm not complaining in the least. Where'd you see that? I'm explaining why the ownership was calling them the 'Evil Empire'. Because Yanks ownership was driving spending.

Frankly, I think the comments were because the Yankees were forcing the Red Sox to spend more to compete, and that was eating into ownership's profits. And they were unhappy about it.

I could care less who spends the most.
 
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Honest question, has any of his former teammates said he he had an attitude problem?
Never. He was a model citizen in the clubhouse and the community. Buck and front office including Brooks Robinson who worked with him spoke highly of hiswork ethic and character.

He had a couple immature acts that Buck spoke to him about but said it wasn't anything to worry about
 

intlzncster

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Never. He was a model citizen in the clubhouse and the community. Buck and front office including Brooks Robinson who worked with him spoke highly of hiswork ethic and character.

He had a couple immature acts that Buck spoke to him about but said it wasn't anything to worry about
Still young too. Time to mature further.
 
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Of course. They are in the same division so they have to compete directly with that. Why should Oakland whine as much when they aren't?

And who cares if you're in the Top 5 when the other guy is spend 30% more. In the extrema: if you are 2nd in baseball, at $200million, and the other team spends $1 billion, you are going to complain. The absolute value matters.



The fans definitely should have.
Are you being serious?
 

intlzncster

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Are you being serious?
Whether you're intending to or not, you're effectively arguing that it doesn't matter if one team spends 30% more for over a decade than another team in the same division. 30% is a lot for the record.

And as I said above, this was more likely an underhanded comment due to bottom line and profits.
 
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You're effectively arguing that it doesn't matter if one team spends 30% more for over a decade than another team in the same division. 30% is a lot for the record.

And as I said above, this was more likely an underhanded comment due to bottom line and profits.
I asked you if you're serious? You think Yankees ownership and Yankees fans should be whining about the Red Sox having a $70 mil. higher payroll than the Yankees this past season?
 

storrsroars

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Don’t know what you’re talking about, Machado is a top defender at 3b and above average at short. Harper is above average in right field. Maybe when he gets older he’ll shift to left or first, but he’s no David Ortiz.
Let's see...

"Machado is a top defender at 3b"... he was at one time.
2015: 7th of 20 qualifiers in UZR/150, 3rd in DRS (Defensive Runs Saved). That's very good.
2016: 2nd of 18 in UZR/150 and 4th in DRS. Even better than 2015.
2017: 9th of 18 in UZR/150 (dropped from 9.9 to 2.2... losing range!) and 7th of 18 in DRS (dropped from 13 to a mere 6). He fell from very good/excellent to slightly above average.

"above average at short"... in 2018 Machado's defense ranked 22nd out of 22 qualifying shortstops. I suppose you could say that there's nowhere to go but up!

Obviously Manny should be at 3b going forward. And while it's possible 2017 was an aberration, he's two years older, so a return to very good/excellent defense would seem optimistic. But as of right now, "top defender" he is not.

"Harper is above average in right field"... I posted this already, but happy to do an encore showing Harper is pretty much the worst defensive OF in MLB among qualifiers. #57 of 57 qualifiers in UZR/150... meaning he has no range. And 56th of 57 when measured on DRS with an abysmal -26 (saved from the bottom only by Charlie Blackmon's -28, which was half compiled in Coors Field, one of the most spacious CFs in MLB).

Don't know what else to tell you, other than if you're relying on the eye test, might be time to get a new pair of glasses.
 
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intlzncster

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I asked you if you're serious? You think Yankees ownership and Yankees fans should be whining about the Red Sox having a $70 mil. higher payroll than the Yankees this past season?
For one season? Not at all. But imagine if the Red Sox outspent the Yankees by an average of $70 million annually over the course of a decade?

If I'm a Yankees fan, I'd be pissed, given the size of the these teams coffers.
 
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For one season? Not at all. But imagine if the Red Sox outspent the Yankees by an average of $70 million annually over the course of a decade?

If I'm a Yankees fan, I'd be pissed, given the size of the these teams coffers.
As a Red Sox fan you would be pissed at the Yankees? Wouldn't it make more sense to be pissed at your ownership?
 

intlzncster

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As a Red Sox fan you would be pissed at the Yankees? Wouldn't it make more sense to be pissed at your ownership?
Ah, I see what you're getting at. It'd be both quite frankly. You're own ownership for not keeping up. And then there's the bitterness/jealousy component of fandom, which would make you pissed at the opposition. It's not necessarily logical, but then feeling this way about a bunch of laundry isn't either.
 

storrsroars

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As a Red Sox fan you would be pissed at the Yankees? Wouldn't it make more sense to be pissed at your ownership?
This is what life is like as a Pirates fan looking up at the Cardinals.
 
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Obviously Manny should be at 3b going forward. And while it's possible 2017 was an aberration, he's two years older, so a return to very good/excellent would seem optimistic. But as of right now, "top defender" he is not.
He's 26 not 32 and 3rd base you don't need range to be a great fielder. He's not going to decline ..or continue to decline as you like to say ad nauseam in this thread. He makes plays at 3rd some of the best to ever play couldn't make. His soft hands, arm strength and feel for the game at the hot corner is amazing to watch

 

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