LSU-Tennessee game (merged thread)

[Boxerpups4me]

"we played flat and emotionless for most of the game." Parker Jersey retired and big recruit in the house...what is with that?? You were there. Did Tenn play good defense or did it suddenly dawn on LSU they were going to win and they couldn't take the weight of it?

They didn't play good defense at all in my opinion until after the technical fouls. But you hit the nail on the head..why did it take two technical fouls to finally wake our team up to play great solid D?? Why wasn't the big crowd, Candace's jersey retirement and the number 1 recruit in attendance not enough?? This game should be a wake up call for Holly in my opinion. Like many here have said, LSU is a good team, not a great team and the SEC is loaded with good, but not great teams. If we continue to play like we did last night, we could easily lose more than half of our conference games and even games we are supposed to win..Anyone remember the Mizzou debacle last year?? Ya, that was embarrassing to say the least.

 

[UConnCat]

They didn't play good defense at all in my opinion until after the technical fouls. But you hit the nail on the head..why did it take two technical fouls to finally wake our team up to play great solid D?? Why wasn't the big crowd, Candace's jersey retirement and the number 1 recruit in attendance not enough?? This game should be a wake up call for Holly in my opinion. Like many here have said, LSU is a good team, not a great team and the SEC is loaded with good, but not great teams. If we continue to play like we did last night, we could easily lose more than half of our conference games and even games we are supposed to win..Anyone remember the Mizzou debacle last year?? Ya, that was embarrassing to say the least.

I think it's fool's gold to think the LV's problem last night was that they didn't play the first 33 minutes the way they played the last 7 minutes. The LV's played desperately and frantically during the last few minutes of the game and LSU helped by imploding. Really good teams are going to make the LVs pay for the high risk/high reward defense the LVs played in the last few minutes of the game. As Dan Flesar tweeted, the comeback shouldn't mask the weaknesses LSU was able to expose last night. To be an elite team the LVs need to do a much better job defending in the half court and executing its offense in the half court.

Georgia is not that good so Sunday should be a win.

 

[UcMiami]

Replying to msf22b without the quote cause it was a long post!
Really good post and something I think is endemic in WCBB. There are a lot of coaches employed at good and bad programs that think intensity and working harder, and digging in, and screaming 'rebound' is what coaching is all about. Or that teaching offensive sets is what coaching is all about and taking 'good shots' and knowing where to be in a zone. And it is not just college but HS and AAU (which has the built in excuse of no practice time.)
Coaching starts with one on one work with individual players teaching fundamental skills - footwork on offense and defense, good passing technique, proper stance and shooting form, locating and boxing out, playing through contact, etc.
Then position work integrating combination moves, switching, using screens, and knowing how to play through screens, etc.
Then five on five integrating front and back court, communicating, shading on defense to channel offensive players into help and blind alleys, and moving to get defenders out of position, the pick and role, pick and pop, and yes offensive and defensive sets but still not actually playing.
And then taking it from teaching speed to game speed. And then from game speed to exhaustion and through it.
After you are done teaching you can start working on intensity and effort, but demanding those without giving the players the tools to allow that intensity to be effective and that effort to lead to success is never going to be anything but useless.

And the good coaches then add in expectation and repetition and as Geno was quoted as saying 'Not until you get it right, but until you can't get it wrong.' And the great ones put players in difficult situations and don't give them answers, but make them figure it out on the fly, because there are no right answers to everything that can happen in a game, just people who make good decisions. And the more times you make the good decisions in practice the more chance you make them in games.

NB Not saying being intense and expending effort in practice is not important, just the idea that intensity and effort in game situations is the solution for teams that haven't been taught the fundamentals.

 

[Tonyc]

Replying to msf22b without the quote cause it was a long post!
Really good post and something I think is endemic in WCBB. There are a lot of coaches employed at good and bad programs that think intensity and working harder, and digging in, and screaming 'rebound' is what coaching is all about. Or that teaching offensive sets is what coaching is all about and taking 'good shots' and knowing where to be in a zone. And it is not just college but HS and AAU (which has the built in excuse of no practice time.)
Coaching starts with one on one work with individual players teaching fundamental skills - footwork on offense and defense, good passing technique, proper stance and shooting form, locating and boxing out, playing through contact, etc.
Then position work integrating combination moves, switching, using screens, and knowing how to play through screens, etc.
Then five on five integrating front and back court, communicating, shading on defense to channel offensive players into help and blind alleys, and moving to get defenders out of position, the pick and role, pick and pop, and yes offensive and defensive sets but still not actually playing.
And then taking it from teaching speed to game speed. And then from game speed to exhaustion and through it.
After you are done teaching you can start working on intensity and effort, but demanding those without giving the players the tools to allow that intensity to be effective and that effort to lead to success is never going to be anything but useless.

And the good coaches then add in expectation and repetition and as Geno was quoted as saying 'Not until you get it right, but until you can't get it wrong.' And the great ones put players in difficult situations and don't give them answers, but make them figure it out on the fly, because there are no right answers to everything that can happen in a game, just people who make good decisions. And the more times you make the good decisions in practice the more chance you make them in games.

NB Not saying being intense and expending effort in practice is not important, just the idea that intensity and effort in game situations is the solution for teams that haven't been taught the fundamentals.

Excellent post. IMO many coaches are not willing to pay the price to make their kids the best they can be. Their prioritys change when they have a contract with a big salary. They don't go to other college coaches or NBA teams or WNBA teams and learn from the best to get better. They aren't willing to pay the price and therefore their kids are not willing to pay the price. If coaches were held accountable and had a fear of losing their jobs to someone who is willing to do what it takes to take their program to the next level they would make the commitment. I remember an ole golf professional telling me after a round of golf...if you truly want to be a great golfer you should be mentally and physically exhausted at the end of your round.

 

[Boxerpups4me]

I think it's fool's gold to think the LV's problem last night was that they didn't play the first 33 minutes the way they played the last 7 minutes. The LV's played desperately and frantically during the last few minutes of the game and LSU helped by imploding. Really good teams are going to make the LVs pay for the high risk/high reward defense the LVs played in the last few minutes of the game. As Dan Flesar tweeted, the comeback shouldn't mask the weaknesses LSU was able to expose last night. To be an elite team the LVs need to do a much better job defending in the half court and executing its offense in the half court.

Georgia is not that good so Sunday should be a win.

Well, the game is @ Georgia and they have played very well at home lately. I hope we pull out the win, because I can't remember the last time we started the SEC schedule 0-2. I think most of our problems could be solved if we could cut down on turnovers by at least half. UConn nearly leads the nation in lowest turnovers per game. I think it's like 9 or something per game. Tennessee ranks somewhere pathetically over 200 and 12th worse in the SEC.

 

[doggydaddy]

..if you truly want to be a great golfer you should be mentally and physically exhausted at the end of your round.

Not true.

I am not a great golfer but I am always physically and mentally exhausted after very round.

 

[Tonyc]

Well, the game is @ Georgia and they have played very well at home lately. I hope we pull out the win, because I can't remember the last time we started the SEC schedule 0-2. I think most of our problems could be solved if we could cut down on turnovers by at least half. UConn nearly leads the nation in lowest turnovers per game. I think it's like 9 or something per game. Tennessee ranks somewhere pathetically over 200 and 12th worse in the SEC.

Boxer I know your down but if Tenn can't beat Georgia they have a real problem. To get the LVs to where you would like them is going to take a lot of tuff love and discipline from the coaching staff. They can not tolerate mistakes. 20 turnovers is not tolerable. Not boxing out and not guarding the perimeter is not tolerable. Holly said in her post game comments that Tenn worked on defense. There wasn't any sign of that as LSU scored 80 pts against the number 5 team in the country. That is way to many points. Talk about missing layups and poor play all you want this game is all about defense and learning how to play the game. Learning how to play the game imo means being able to find a way to score even when your shooting is off. You play the game by forcing turnovers not committing them yourself . You score by playing defense and making steals and rebounding missed shots and running the fast break. You don't play one on one. You get everybody involved. YOu get everybody involved by passing the ball and cutting and setting picks. You don't bomb treys when nobody is underneath unless your KML. Bottom line is the LVs have a lot of work to do to compete for a NC and it aint gonna get fixed with a bandaid. It takes months of practice. But they need to start somewhere. This isn't anything new with the LVs. You can go back to the Ball St game and see what was going on and since that time how many games that should've been easy wins for Tenn were struggles. The coaching staff needs to make some changes and develop these kids. The kids cant be telling the coaches what to do the coaches have to instill fear and tuff love into the kids. A couple of years ago the deal with the IPODs on the bench. Come on. IF you cant change your players then you have to change your players.

Tenn fans have set their expectations to high for this team. They are living in the past. What they were is not what they are now. Teams are passing them by. Its not longer rebound rebound rebound and get the best talent. There is a lot of talent and its being spread around and those coaches who have a system and develop their players into a team concept will emerge as great teams. Look at South Dakota and Marist. Both very well coached teams that have made noise in the NCAAs with lesser talent.

Tenn is not a top 4 team. They have a lot of talent and so do a lot of other teams but I think they are looking at maybe a 2 seed in the NCAAs but most likely a 3 seed at best. When you look at UConn, Stanford, ND, Duke, Louisville, Kentucky, Nebraska they all play defense and they all execute plays. They win by a lot most of the time when they're not shooting the ball well. Tenn doesn't do that. Tenn shot the ball pretty well against LSU and lost. Now look at Ohio St, UCLA and Cal are up and coming teams. Tenn is still complaining about the refs and what they need to do to get better but they haven't made the turn like other programs have and Tenn has the talent.

 

[DaddyChoc]

dang Tony is in his glory... he's writing paragraphs on this thread

 

[Phil]

dang Tony is in his glory... he's writing paragraphs on this thread

Everyone's upping their game.

 

[Phil]

Well, the game is @ Georgia and they have played very well at home lately. I hope we pull out the win, because I can't remember the last time we started the SEC schedule 0-2. I think most of our problems could be solved if we could cut down on turnovers by at least half. UConn nearly leads the nation in lowest turnovers per game. I think it's like 9 or something per game. Tennessee ranks somewhere pathetically over 200 and 12th worse in the SEC.

I like GA, but I think they are over rated. Yet another example of an SEC ranked team with zero, count 'em, zero wins over a ranked team. They don't even have a close loss to a ranked team, because they have yet to play a ranked team. The voters do a decent job in many cases, but they have a blind spot when it comes to the SEC.

 

[Icebear]

dang Tony is in his glory... he's writing paragraphs on this thread

LOL!!!

 

[VolFan]

One thing that killed our defense was this. Somehow, some way, Mercedes and Izzy kept ending up having to try and close out from the paint all the way to three point line on open shooters. If we're playing man, they shouldn't be doing that. If we're playing zone they shouldn't be doing that. No reason at all for it. Secondly, there was no help on Ballard. Third, our first half rebounding was atrocious. We could have put the game away in the first half solely by getting defensive boards. Holly hit the nail on the head when she said to some extent that they work on these things in practice and in games they just don't transfer it to the court. This team seems to lack focus on the gameplay every game until it's too late(see the comebacks against Stanford and LSU) I do not lack faith in Holly. Right now, it's on the players. Eventually it comes down to not blaming the coach anymore. If they can't box out and stay on their man, then shut it down and say E8 bound for the 4th time in a row. I think the difference in this team going forward has to be Ariel (who had another pts and assists double double against LSU) She needs to hold everybody more accountable as the PG of this team. Meighan also needs to grow up and be a senior leader or take a seat on the bench and watch. Lastly, the biggest hurt to us on offense is this: the wing position. Burdick not so much, but Jasmine Jones never makes good decisions on offense it seems. If she could quit being so timid with the ball on that end of the floor, the entire offense would move better. The encouraging thing about the rest of the season is that we have fixable problems that we can still address. The scary thing about this season is that we have had very fixable problems hat we have yet to fix. This team's potential is so high. We have the talent to compete (don't kill me) with even UConn. But we also lack focus and discipline. We'll see how Georgia pans out Also: A'ja Wilson has really enjoyed Knoxville. It's an elite program that she could bring back that is still comparable driving distance in comparison to UNC and USC. Her being a Lady Vol could happen!

 

[UConnCat]

Well, the game is @ Georgia and they have played very well at home lately. I hope we pull out the win, because I can't remember the last time we started the SEC schedule 0-2. I think most of our problems could be solved if we could cut down on turnovers by at least half. UConn nearly leads the nation in lowest turnovers per game. I think it's like 9 or something per game. Tennessee ranks somewhere pathetically over 200 and 12th worse in the SEC.

Georgia has had lots of practice playing at home. In fact, 11 of its 13 OOC games were played in the state of Georgia with 10 played on its home court. Georgia has won all of its home games but, as Phil said, the competition has been pretty poor. Georgia has played 3 road games (Belmont, Rutgers and Vandy) and has lost 2 of them. The LVs should win this game easily.

 

[DobbsRover2]

What would be very instructive and informative but probably could never be done is to put together a comparison documentary not of game action but of practice, pregame instruction speeches and postgame talks for a group of top teams and various samplers like UConn, Stanford, ND, Louisville, Duke, KY, Baylor, OSU, UWGB, Marist that shows how the coaches begin the season's game plan, how they train the players, how they rev them up for games, and the lessons they pull out of each game. I'm sure there would be a lot of wildly disparate systems out there and that both fans and coaches could learn a lot from how different schools do things.

Obviously a lot of work and money required there, but it would be a treasure mine.

 

[Tonyc]

One thing that killed our defense was this. Somehow, some way, Mercedes and Izzy kept ending up having to try and close out from the paint all the way to three point line on open shooters. If we're playing man, they shouldn't be doing that. If we're playing zone they shouldn't be doing that. No reason at all for it. Secondly, there was no help on Ballard. Third, our first half rebounding was atrocious. We could have put the game away in the first half solely by getting defensive boards. Holly hit the nail on the head when she said to some extent that they work on these things in practice and in games they just don't transfer it to the court. This team seems to lack focus on the gameplay every game until it's too late(see the comebacks against Stanford and LSU) I do not lack faith in Holly. Right now, it's on the players. Eventually it comes down to not blaming the coach anymore. If they can't box out and stay on their man, then shut it down and say E8 bound for the 4th time in a row. I think the difference in this team going forward has to be Ariel (who had another pts and assists double double against LSU) She needs to hold everybody more accountable as the PG of this team. Meighan also needs to grow up and be a senior leader or take a seat on the bench and watch. Lastly, the biggest hurt to us on offense is this: the wing position. Burdick not so much, but Jasmine Jones never makes good decisions on offense it seems. If she could quit being so timid with the ball on that end of the floor, the entire offense would move better. The encouraging thing about the rest of the season is that we have fixable problems that we can still address. The scary thing about this season is that we have had very fixable problems hat we have yet to fix. This team's potential is so high. We have the talent to compete (don't kill me) with even UConn. But we also lack focus and discipline. We'll see how Georgia pans out Also: A'ja Wilson has really enjoyed Knoxville. It's an elite program that she could bring back that is still comparable driving distance in comparison to UNC and USC. Her being a Lady Vol could happen!

I wont kill you lol and you do have talent as does Stanford Duke MD Ohio St Cal and Penn St and UConn beat them all and for the most part without KML and Tuck. Tenn even if they straighten out some of their problems can compete with UConn. The teams above couldn't when UConn was missing 2 very good and key players. Don't kid yourself this season no one can compete with UConn. As far as Wilson goes. If I were the Wilsons and read your posts I wouldn't consider Tenn. Now just hope the Wilsons don't read the Summit or Vol Nation boards. Tenn SC and UNC have all said the same thing. IF Wilson comes they could make the FF or win a NC. UConn is thinking with her and possibly without her theyre going to win NC. That's a big difference. Hey UConn won NC without EDD. The spread between UConn and everybody else is huge right now and will be next season too. Like I said in others threads Tenn is a top 10 team not a top 5 team. They have the talent but that talent isn't developed and continues to make the same mistakes year after year. When Tenn can go out there and plummet some top 10 teams I will believe they are ready for the FF. But then again Stanford and ND are the only OOC teams in the top 10 and Kentucky possibly. That's not a competitive schedule to talk about competing with UConn. Tenn has to many "IFs" as you have just mentioned in your post to compete with UConn ND and Duke.

 

[huskeynut]

First to Volfan - thanks for posting and being honest in your assessment of the Lady Vols. Yes you have some very talented players, especially on the front line. But they seem to have very little knowledge pick and rolls, screens or moving without the ball. There is also no sense of using your height to play the high low game that Uconn does very well. I see a lot of dribbling and shooting. They also seem to have little awareness on defense of any player except the one they are guarding. Hence, uncontested drives by guards down the lane for a layup. These are my observations from watching four LV games this season.

I would offer this to you and other fans. I believe there is a direct correlation between the type of offense a team runs and the style of defense they play. Uconn runs a motion offense as we all know, some times known as the read option. Players have to read the options available to them every time they receive the ball. Pass to another team mate - 4 options or shoot a jumper or drive to the bucket - 2 more options. This does not happen without the court awareness of location of teammates and the position of defensive players. This also does not happen without the development of specific skills such as foot work, screening for a teammate, passing, both the bounce pass and the chest pass, and ball handling to name a few. I'm sure I missed a lot more skills needed.

Now, transfer this court awareness to the defensive side. Players are able to anticipate passes or a player dribbling to a specific location. Court awareness means you not only know your defensive assignment but those of your teammates. Seeing a guard beat off the dribble allows the forwards or posts to slide over to close out the driving lane and force the player to pass off or to shoot a poor shot. Several times it will result in a charging foul. Many times we have seen a Uconn player step in front of another player and steal a pass as if they knew the ball was coming their way. And - anticipating based on court awareness.

Most teams run set plays. When the play doesn't work as diagramed and practice, teams are at a loss as to what to do next. These teams become easier to defend because someone starts dribbling around in the backcourt not knowing what to do next. Rebecca Lobo and Kara Lawson discussed this point at half time during the Uconn - Duke game.

The days of having athletes and being able to rely on their athleticism or going one-on-one to win games is a thing of the past. Having one exceptional player carry a team onto championships is also ancient history. You need multiple scoring options.

 

[ChicagoGG]

"Also: A'ja Wilson has really enjoyed Knoxville. It's an elite program that she could bring back that is still comparable driving distance in comparison to UNC and USC. Her being a Lady Vol could happen! "

Vol Fan - with all due respect, she could help bring it back, but she couldn't do it by herself....Holly needs to work out some other issues, and then, IF you get your wish it is POSSIBLE A'ja could help acomplish what you hope for.

 

[doggydaddy]

We have the talent to compete (don't kill me) with even UConn.

I won't kill you, but I will disagree. It's not really close.

Sure, HS recruting rankings are similar. But, as we have seen, their college performances don't necessarily line up.

 

[HuskyNan]

This team seems to lack focus on the gameplay every game until it's too late(see the comebacks against Stanford and LSU) I do not lack faith in Holly. Right now, it's on the players. ...This team's potential is so high. We have the talent to compete (don't kill me) with even UConn. But we also lack focus and discipline.

It would be a sorry fan that didn't like and believe in the team they root for. I see no reason to "kill" you for believing in your team.

 

[EricLA]

Not to pile it on for Tennessee fans, but they actually don't have the talent to compete with UCONN. Not even close, really. Duke comes close. Tennessee does not. DD is correct - HS rankings were "sort" of similar, but there's a HUGE difference between a kid rated 98 and ranked 1-3 and a kid rated 97 and ranked 5-10.

KML, Stewie, Jefferson were all either the #1 or #2 players in their class. And they play like it. Russell is the only player even close, and she's nowhere near the level of those 3. Yeah I know Massengale, Burdick and Graves were all ranked in the top 5 in HS but that's like comparing Taurasi to Robinson or Moore to Bjorkland. The talent chasm is huge.

Tuck, Hartley and Dolson are the next "tier", and probably compare with Massengale, Harrison, Graves, Simmons, Burdick and Carter. I include Harrison in that list and Dolson even tho both were ranked outside the top 10. I actually think those kids stack up fairly evenly with UCONN - Graves IMHO is the best player on the team but is not used correctly, Harrison is playing terrific, and Massengale is really solid for the most part.

Then you have kids like Banks, Stokes, and Chong for UCONN compared to Jones, Moore and Reynolds. Again, possibly close, but the UCONN kids are simply better.

So not only does UCONN have far superior talent, but the coaching is also far superior. Add that up and the gap between Tennessee and UCONN is probably the greatest it's ever been. How does a head coach not teach offense to the team, and then actually admit it? And as has been pointed out, if giving up 80 points to a marginal top 20 team is the result of "focusing on and teaching" defense, that's a very poor result.

I get believing in your team, but the unrealistic expectations and believing that their TEAM is far better than it is has caused a ton of stress for the Tennessee fans...

 

[UConnCat]

One thing that killed our defense was this. Somehow, some way, Mercedes and Izzy kept ending up having to try and close out from the paint all the way to three point line on open shooters. If we're playing man, they shouldn't be doing that. If we're playing zone they shouldn't be doing that. No reason at all for it. Secondly, there was no help on Ballard. Third, our first half rebounding was atrocious. We could have put the game away in the first half solely by getting defensive boards. Holly hit the nail on the head when she said to some extent that they work on these things in practice and in games they just don't transfer it to the court.

Can't say I remember post players guarding the 3-point line being much of an issue at all. I think there was one LSU 3-pointer made when Izzy switched on the ball screen but that was it. Plaisance can make 3s so she should be guarded out there. What I saw was poor execution on ball screens and poor weak-side rotations which allowed LSU to get to the rim without much resistance. The LVs were burned when helping off of Darden in the corner but that's probably because the post defense was so weak. The LVs defense is just not that good (and hasn't been for a few years). Are the problems fixable? Yes, but Holly has said she's been focused mostly on defense at the expense of the team's half-court offense so something is not working.

 

[UcMiami]

First to Volfan - thanks for posting and being honest in your assessment of the Lady Vols. Yes you have some very talented players, especially on the front line. But they seem to have very little knowledge pick and rolls, screens or moving without the ball. There is also no sense of using your height to play the high low game that Uconn does very well. I see a lot of dribbling and shooting. They also seem to have little awareness on defense of any player except the one they are guarding. Hence, uncontested drives by guards down the lane for a layup. These are my observations from watching four LV games this season.

I would offer this to you and other fans. I believe there is a direct correlation between the type of offense a team runs and the style of defense they play. Uconn runs a motion offense as we all know, some times known as the read option. Players have to read the options available to them every time they receive the ball. Pass to another team mate - 4 options or shoot a jumper or drive to the bucket - 2 more options. This does not happen without the court awareness of location of teammates and the position of defensive players. This also does not happen without the development of specific skills such as foot work, screening for a teammate, passing, both the bounce pass and the chest pass, and ball handling to name a few. I'm sure I missed a lot more skills needed.

Now, transfer this court awareness to the defensive side. Players are able to anticipate passes or a player dribbling to a specific location. Court awareness means you not only know your defensive assignment but those of your teammates. Seeing a guard beat off the dribble allows the forwards or posts to slide over to close out the driving lane and force the player to pass off or to shoot a poor shot. Several times it will result in a charging foul. Many times we have seen a Uconn player step in front of another player and steal a pass as if they knew the ball was coming their way. And - anticipating based on court awareness.

Most teams run set plays. When the play doesn't work as diagramed and practice, teams are at a loss as to what to do next. These teams become easier to defend because someone starts dribbling around in the backcourt not knowing what to do next. Rebecca Lobo and Kara Lawson discussed this point at half time during the Uconn - Duke game.

The days of having athletes and being able to rely on their athleticism or going one-on-one to win games is a thing of the past. Having one exceptional player carry a team onto championships is also ancient history. You need multiple scoring options.

Nice post - and I would also add on your defensive side (and something I see Uconn doing all the time) - knowing where your help is when playing man defense and making sure that you are overplaying in such a way to force your player into that help defense. Not only does Uconn get great help defense, but the way they overplay makes it easier for the help defense to be in position and not getting caught.

 

[Wonkster]

Fleser is hated by the Tin Foil Hat wearers because he doesn't drink the Kool Aid.

Would you?

If you're wearing a tinfoil hat and you're anywhere near a electrical outlet, drinking Kool Aid is outright dangerous, man!

 

[Adesmar123]

Would you?

If you're wearing a tinfoil hat and you're anywhere near a electrical outlet, drinking Kool Aid is outright dangerous, man!

As dangerous as peeing into the outlet?

 

[Wonkster]

... Holly hit the nail on the head when she said to some extent that they work on these things in practice and in games they just don't transfer it to the court ...

You know what happens to students who do the homework but don't transfer it to the exams? They flunk.