LOL Pats Fans - it never ends

[David 76]

I've brought up actual facts.

No one has disputed them yet.

I brought up the fact that Wells report on pg. 77 says the balls should have fallen by 1.22.

They fell by 1.20.

In other words, there's no evidence of tampering at all.

The texts are damning but irrelevant, as relevant as Rodgers saying he had the balls reinflated after the refs deflated them, or like the Vikes and Jags messing with the balls after the refs let them go. In other words, admitting you did something in the past isn't an issue because the balls actually showed no sign of tampering.

I think it's clear in the texts that Brady was angry that he was playing with overinflated balls and he wanted the equip guy to make sure it doesn't happen. But the balls in question were 16 PSI and the equip guy even wrote in his text to the ballguy that he needed to get them down to 13 PSI. Into spec.

Brady appears to have been questioned about this because he is quoted as telling the equip guy to go into the refs room and read them the rulebook that the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI.

His guys messed with the balls after the fact, which they shouldn't have. But we don't know when or absolutely IF they did that in the past. We do know they didn't do it in the game in which Brady was angry or he wouldnt have been angry.

At the end of the day, here's what it comes down to for me. The balls were exactly where science predicts they should be, according to the Wells report. If they had been tampered with, they should have been lower.



Wells dismissed the science because he thought the texts were smoking guns. He also thought the fact the guys were joking about Uggs meant this was a quid pro quo pay off by Brady.

Did you read what I wrote at all? Surprised you left out a defense for the previous ball deflating incident. Talk about proving my point.

 

[intlzncster]

Deflategate is a minor issue. Boston teams are not the issue. It is the defensive fans that irritate.

Here's the point. Patriots fans have no choice. The vast majority of the public (including a number of people on here) doesn't think this way. The Patriots are attacked like no other team, likely because they are good. A few examples among many:

• Much of the stuff people say is fabricated. You tell a lie often enough, and it becomes truth. For instance, the Rams walk through tape doesn't even exist. The Boston writer who 'broke' the story admitted as much; had to write a mea culpa column and damn near lost his career over the incident. But now people think it's fact.
• Many other teams infractions, much more egregious in nature, are just ignored. For instance, the Broncos were found to violate the salary cap during their multi championship run at the end of Elway's career. Nobody considers those 'tainted' even though that likely had a more direct role in winning than anything the Patriots have ever done.
  
• Put it this way, had the Patriots been found to pump in crowd noise, or have a GM call down to the sidelines (2 examples from this year), there would have been a national uproar for months, calls for BB head, loss of multiple draft picks, etc.
• The eligible receiver thing in the playoffs. That wasn't even against the rules. In fact, they decided to alter the rulebook after the season to disallow it, because prior to that, the rules allowed it. That's not cheating, it's called being smart. BB is just smarter than the opposition. You saw Harbaugh freakin panic. Oh, and when the Lions and Jets used the same strategy earlier in the year, no body cared. But it's the Pats, so..

Boston fans have no choice but to defend. Same way UCONN needed to be defended against a lot of the BS spread against them.

 

[FartMan69]

Here's the point. Patriots fans have no choice. The vast majority of the public (including a number of people on here) doesn't think this way. The Patriots are attacked like no other team, likely because they are good. A few examples among many:

• Much of the stuff people say is fabricated. You tell a lie often enough, and it becomes truth. For instance, the Rams walk through tape doesn't even exist. The Boston writer who 'broke' the story admitted as much; had to write a mea culpa column and damn near lost his career over the incident. But now people think it's fact.
• Many other teams infractions, much more egregious in nature, are just ignored. For instance, the Broncos were found to violate the salary cap during their multi championship run at the end of Elway's career. Nobody considers those 'tainted' even though that likely had a more direct role in winning than anything the Patriots have ever done.
  
• Put it this way, had the Patriots been found to pump in crowd noise, or have a GM call down to the sidelines (2 examples from this year), there would have been a national uproar for months, calls for BB head, loss of multiple draft picks, etc.
• The eligible receiver thing in the playoffs. That wasn't even against the rules. In fact, they decided to alter the rulebook after the season to disallow it, because prior to that, the rules allowed it. That's not cheating, it's called being smart. BB is just smarter than the opposition. You saw Harbaugh freakin panic. Oh, and when the Lions and Jets used the same strategy earlier in the year, no body cared. But it's the Pats, so..

Boston fans have no choice but to defend. Same way UCONN needed to be defended against a lot of the BS spread against them.

Don't you know only Boston fan's defend their teams?

 

[upstater]

Did you read what I wrote at all? Surprised you left out a defense for the previous ball deflating incident. Talk about proving my point.

Yes, I read it. Your point is the balls were tampered w/ at the AFCCG but that it's no big deal and should be accepted. That's why I posted I disagree. Esp. when the fallout is Brady's suspension. It's as ludicrous as a ban for APR after the fact. No postseason.

 

[David 76]

Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean you aren't trying to kill us.

Again, fans root for and defend their teams. Just because I've lived in Boston for 20 years that doesn't somehow make me defend David Ortiz or Pedro any more zealously than I'd defend Jim Calhoun. None are perfect, don't expect them to be, but they've made my sports rooting lifetime damn exciting, I'd take them all over again exactly as-is and because of that if you are going to criticize them you are going to hear from me.

Different. I never defended A-Rod, when the reality of Mickey Mantel's (boyhood idle) life came out,. I didn't attack the author, I knew Jeter's homer against the O's wasn't. Just never felt the need for blind loyalty or "us against the world" that is so common around Boston. There are enough Yankee fans who are exactly the same. I find them equally annoying.

Around here you can't state JC had a flaw without being attacked (I have and was). Just don't get the level of fandom where you are supposed to throw your brain out the window.

 

[FartMan69]

Different. I never defended A-Rod, when the reality of Mickey Mantel's (boyhood idle) life came out,. I didn't attack the author, I knew Jeter's homer against the O's wasn't. Just never felt the need for blind loyalty or "us against the world" that is so common around Boston. There are enough Yankee fans who are exactly the same. I find them equally annoying.

Around here you can't state JC had a flaw without being attacked (I have and was). Just don't get the level of fandom where you are supposed to throw your brain out the window.

Bravo, Bravo

 

[johnhuskies95]

I'm not saying this to passive aggressive at all. The people who are arguing with you aren't actually interested in analysis. They have their narrative and that's what they want. It's not a big deal really.

And you don't think Boston fans have their own narrative? I think what David is saying is that Boston fans live in their own little bubble when it comes to sports, and their opinions of their own teams have been raised to ridiculous levels. All teams have homer fans, but Boston fans seem to be on another level in my opinion and it creates this ridiculous, entitled attitude. Like calling Ray a "traitor" for going to their biggest "rival"(never mind the Celtics never once went further than LeBron's Heat).

 

[David 76]

Yes, I read it. Your point is the balls were tampered w/ at the AFCCG but that it's no big deal and should be accepted. That's why I posted I disagree. Esp. when the fallout is Brady's suspension. It's as ludicrous as a ban for APR after the fact. No postseason.

Yeah I said it was no big deal and Boston fans are defensive. To which you responded with an elaborate defense. But I don't want to have this argument with you.
You are saying there isn't enough proof to prove he did it, or that anything was done. I basically agree. Do you think, regardless of who else committed the same infraction, that the someone on the Pats never did this?

 

[Dogdeacon]

Different. I never defended A-Rod, when the reality of Mickey Mantel's (boyhood idle) life came out,. I didn't attack the author, I knew Jeter's homer against the O's wasn't. Just never felt the need for blind loyalty or "us against the world" that is so common around Boston. There are enough Yankee fans who are exactly the same. I find them equally annoying.

Around here you can't state JC had a flaw without being attacked (I have and was). Just don't get the level of fandom where you are supposed to throw your brain out the window.

Ok so loyalty is different for you, one individual - yet you choose to put all Boston fans or Patriot fans under one general stereotype and that's that. Not saying you won't admit there is room for exceptions, but I think you are asserting that the MAJORITY of Boston fans are ESPECIALLY defensive.

I disagree:
1. All of the Boston teams have won a ton over the past 15 years, this sets up lots to defend. I.e. I'm not going to be defensive about criticism of UConn football b/c there's little to defend.

2. Papi is still playing and has never been penalized, so I think that's a lot different than ARod. I think Pats fans will admit to the chicanery of the snowplow game or the lucky interpretation of the tuck rule. But much like the Jeter homer David76 mentions if you start taking away championships because of one call its going to get a backlash. I.e. 1999 Duke does NOT beat UConn in a seven game series, it was one game for the national championship and I'm pretty sure both teams knew that going in.

3. I'm actually not a Patriots fan, but both of their big controversies spygate and now deflate-gate seem to have undeniably larger backlash than actual crime. Basically the contention is they cheated and gained some hypothetical unfair advantage, but because the advantage is unknown those opposing the Patriots almost have to argue that the advantage was BIG and fans of the Pats logically take the position that the advantage/cheating/rule bending was small. The character of these vague controversies created the situation where fans argue about them, not the character of the fans.

 

[upstater]

Yeah I said it was no big deal and Boston fans are defensive. To which you responded with an elaborate defense. But I don't want to have this argument with you.
You are saying there isn't enough proof to prove he did it, or that anything was done. I basically agree. Do you think, regardless of who else committed the same infraction, that the someone on the Pats never did this?

I actually think he has guys deflate balls. In previous games. Based on the texts. Don't know when they are deflated. Before or after the refs get them. Or if they are deflated to spec or below it.

What I am saying is that these balls for the AFCCG were not deflated. Not that there isn't enough proof. I am saying they ABSOLUTELY conformed with the science. It's a Gas Law. Incontrovertible.

 

[intlzncster]

And you don't think Boston fans have their own narrative? I think what David is saying is that Boston fans live in their own little bubble when it comes to sports, and their opinions of their own teams have been raised to ridiculous levels. All teams have homer fans, but Boston fans seem to be on another level in my opinion and it creates this ridiculous, entitled attitude. Like calling Ray a "traitor" for going to their biggest "rival"(never mind the Celtics never once went further than LeBron's Heat).

I think it's because many of you are NY fans, living in a Boston centric area. You are also seeing a media driven viewpoint, and I agree with anyone who says Boston sports media is one of the worst.

Top it all off, New England people love to complain in general.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Why do I not like the Pats not trust Robert Kraft at all...

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/20/nyregion/handshake-on-deal-to-move-patriots-to-hartford.html

"Boston television reporters trailed Mr. Kraft through the Capitol, asking him repeatedly if there were any way the team would remain in Boston. ''We're not considering other options now,'' he said flatly. He noted that Connecticut had until the end of the year to begin implementing its part of the agreement. ''If they do it,'' he said, ''we're coming here.''"​

Haven't trusted him since.

 

[superjohn]

Here's the point. Patriots fans have no choice. The vast majority of the public (including a number of people on here) doesn't think this way. The Patriots are attacked like no other team, likely because they are good. A few examples among many:

• Much of the stuff people say is fabricated. You tell a lie often enough, and it becomes truth. For instance, the Rams walk through tape doesn't even exist. The Boston writer who 'broke' the story admitted as much; had to write a mea culpa column and damn near lost his career over the incident. But now people think it's fact.
• Many other teams infractions, much more egregious in nature, are just ignored. For instance, the Broncos were found to violate the salary cap during their multi championship run at the end of Elway's career. Nobody considers those 'tainted' even though that likely had a more direct role in winning than anything the Patriots have ever done.
  
• Put it this way, had the Patriots been found to pump in crowd noise, or have a GM call down to the sidelines (2 examples from this year), there would have been a national uproar for months, calls for BB head, loss of multiple draft picks, etc.
• The eligible receiver thing in the playoffs. That wasn't even against the rules. In fact, they decided to alter the rulebook after the season to disallow it, because prior to that, the rules allowed it. That's not cheating, it's called being smart. BB is just smarter than the opposition. You saw Harbaugh freakin panic. Oh, and when the Lions and Jets used the same strategy earlier in the year, no body cared. But it's the Pats, so..

Boston fans have no choice but to defend. Same way UCONN needed to be defended against a lot of the BS spread against them.

I don't remember the Cowboys or 49ers being attacked because they were good. This persecution complex you guys have is hilarious, Patriots have been hit by the NFL because they have broken rules. You really think Goodell has it in for the Patriots? The guy is best buddies with Kraft.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I don't remember the Cowboys or 49ers being attacked because they were good. This persecution complex you guys have is hilarious, Patriots have been hit by the NFL because they have broken rules. You really think Goodell has it in for the Patriots? The guy is best buddies with Kraft.

This is an underrated point. Goodell is basically Kraft's bitch.

 

[superjohn]

I think it's because many of you are NY fans, living in a Boston centric area. You are also seeing a media driven viewpoint, and I agree with anyone who says Boston sports media is one of the worst.

Top it all off, New England people love to complain in general.

I do think there is a lot of truth to this. Boston is a provincial city, I have several friends who talk like the world revolves around Boston, the Cape, Nantucket etc. Boston is a nice regional city, I've never quite understood where this whole way of thinking comes from.

 

[David 76]

Ok so loyalty is different for you, one individual - yet you choose to put all Boston fans or Patriot fans under one general stereotype and that's that. Not saying you won't admit there is room for exceptions, but I think you are asserting that the MAJORITY of Boston fans are ESPECIALLY defensive.

I disagree:
1. All of the Boston teams have won a ton over the past 15 years, this sets up lots to defend. I.e. I'm not going to be defensive about criticism of UConn football b/c there's little to defend.

2. Papi is still playing and has never been penalized, so I think that's a lot different than ARod. I think Pats fans will admit to the chicanery of the snowplow game or the lucky interpretation of the tuck rule. But much like the Jeter homer David76 mentions if you start taking away championships because of one call its going to get a backlash. I.e. 1999 Duke does NOT beat UConn in a seven game series, it was one game for the national championship and I'm pretty sure both teams knew that going in.

3. I'm actually not a Patriots fan, but both of their big controversies spygate and now deflate-gate seem to have undeniably larger backlash than actual crime. Basically the contention is they cheated and gained some hypothetical unfair advantage, but because the advantage is unknown those opposing the Patriots almost have to argue that the advantage was BIG and fans of the Pats logically take the position that the advantage/cheating/rule bending was small. The character of these vague controversies created the situation where fans argue about them, not the character of the fans.

Good points. And your objectivity is different than the typical Pats fan.
1 I'm a Yankee fan and have had, with few exceptions, a lifetime of baseball jealousy to deal with. Boston's 15 years aren't all that. But the Pats have certainly been on a roll and I think they catch some of that. (To redefine elite, the Yankees have had several 15 year periods where, alone, they had more championships than the Sox, Celtics, Bruins & Pats in the past 15 years. That Boston "exceptionalism" is a bit why they annoy people.

2 You do know why Papi was never penalized, don't you. It took a lot of pressure and an agreement to not penalize anybody in the first year of testing to get the players union to go along. Being given amnesty is a lot different than not committing a crime.
3 I 100% agree that deflategate is a minor infraction. I think most people on my side of this argument have said so too. It is the Pats fans who can't admit that there was a small infraction. It is conspiracy, or it is done by everybody or it factual that no balls were tampered with. Brady, before the Super Bowl, didn't even know the name of the guy who handled the balls. Now it is shown that he was emailing him to a point McNally found annoying. Only Pats fans can say Brady doesn't look bad in this. But let me elaborate for the terminally sports sensitive. Not Charles Manson bad, not A-Rod bad, Not even Ortiz bad. But being smug while lying bad. Most probably seeking an unfair equipment advantage bad.

 

[David 76]

I actually think he has guys deflate balls. In previous games. Based on the texts. Don't know when they are deflated. Before or after the refs get them. Or if they are deflated to spec or below it.

What I am saying is that these balls for the AFCCG were not deflated. Not that there isn't enough proof. I am saying they ABSOLUTELY conformed with the science. It's a Gas Law. Incontrovertible.

We agree on the first statement. I'm not sure about the second. Does that contradict the report?

 

[intlzncster]

This is an underrated point. Goodell is basically Kraft's bitch.

This is another laugher. If this were the case, the Patriots would never have any issues.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't remember the Cowboys or 49ers being attacked because they were good. This persecution complex you guys have is hilarious, Patriots have been hit by the NFL because they have broken rules. You really think Goodell has it in for the Patriots? The guy is best buddies with Kraft.

First of all, the media and Internet culture we now live in has completely changed the game. It's given real voice to the masses.

Second, both those franchises were the most hated teams in America during their respective runs.

The kraft/Goodell thing is nonsense. What exactly is your opinion based on?

So he showed up at an NFL party held by kraft during the Playoffs. Big whup. They definitely have a working relationship, but that's part of the deal.

 

[johnhuskies95]

This is another laugher. If this were the case, the Patriots would never have any issues.

Dude, come on. Kraft was defending the Ray Rice thing publicly in the face of all the backlash. Even Richard Sherman has joked about how close they are with each other.

Read this article. Kraft wants him to speak to a reporter, he speaks to said reporter.

 

[superjohn]

First of all, the media and Internet culture we now live in has completely changed the game. It's given real voice to the masses.

Second, both those franchises were the most hated teams in America during their respective runs.

The kraft/Goodell thing is nonsense. What exactly is your opinion based on?

So he showed up at an NFL party held by kraft during the Playoffs. Big whup. They definitely have a working relationship, but that's part of the deal.

I don't remember the Cowboys or 49ers being attacked by the NFL like many of you Patriots fans seem the think the NFL is attacking the Pats. Everyone knows Goodell is very tight with Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft. You're either not informed or you are just playing dumb at this point.

 

[David 76]

Cowboys had a lot of resentment aimed their way but not the Steelers or Niners or Packers.
The Cowboys pushed that whole "America's Team" BS and were really full of themselves.
Hey, wait! I think I found the connection!

 

[jrazz12]

We agree on the first statement. I'm not sure about the second. Does that contradict the report?

"According to our scientific consultants, however, the reduction in pressure of the Patriots game balls cannot be explained completely by basic scientific principles, such as the Ideal Gas Law, based on the circumstances and conditions likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship Game. In addition, the average pressure drop of the Patriots game balls exceeded the average pressure drop of the Colts balls by 0.45 to 1.02 psi..."

 

[Dogdeacon]

If Al Gore had invented the Internet in the 70s the Americas Team Cowboys would have had massive fanboys and haters. Anyone who went to a sports bar on a Sunday between 75-90 can testify. Part of the reason Boston and Pats fans seem so loud now is its only been15 or so years that we can all talk at each other.

The Yankees - Sox noise is a good or legit example because we've all been living amidst each other forever. I have to admit I was convinced for awhile that Yankee fans were definitionally arrogant. Now less so

 

[auggie22]

Can a mod rename this thread, "Let's talk about stuff we imagine is true because we hate the New England Patriots"?