LOL Pats Fans - it never ends

[Deepster]

I'm actually a litigator. And I didn't get my JD from the American Samoa Law School, either. I'm trying not to be pedantic, but the "evidence" against Ortiz is thin.

No, you don't have to ask the same question five times. I actually answer questions directed to me.

And here's my answer: I don't know. The 2003 testing program remains a mystery. It was an experiment aimed at testing out MLB's testing protocols. That's why nobody was suspended.

So, if that 2003 test was the only piece of evidence we had, the case against Sosa would be thin. Unfortunately for Sosa, there is a gigantic pile of circumstantial evidence. First, his body completely changed and he put up mind-boggling stats. He was called to testify before Congress because it seemed clear to most people he was doing PEDs. OK, well suspicion isn't good enough; what did he do before the Congressional committee? He pretended not to speak English, that's what he did. It was the equivalent of pleading the Fifth. We also know he corked his bat. And finally, after being accused of using PEDs, his production tailed off precipitously.

As for Ortiz, his body shape never changed and he's RAKED for the last 12 years. I suppose you believe he's been doing steroids the whole time. You're free to believe that. I think it's silly, but go ahead.

So, let me see if I understand you correctly.

Ortiz is okay because even though there's a supposed failed test per the NY Times, there's no circumstantial evidence (other than befriending Manny and a huge jump in production from the Twins).

Sosa isn't okay. He supposedly failed a test per the NY Times, but he has a lot more circumstantial evidence against him.

And Tom Brady is fine. The only circumstantial evidence against him is 11 of 12 balls all falling under the legal limit. oh, and the footballs being handled by a guy with the nickname "The Deflator" and Brady gave him autographed merch for helping him out.

Funny how a guy nicknamed "nomar" finds just enough of a crack to let off the two Boston guys.

 

[upstater]

And Tom Brady is fine. The only circumstantial evidence against him is 11 of 12 balls all falling under the legal limit. oh, and the footballs being handled by a guy with the nickname "The Deflator" and Brady gave him autographed merch for helping him out.

Actually, it was 11 of 11 balls. AND, the balls fell to the exact same point the Wells report expected them to with scientific calculations.

If they had been deflated manually, they should have been lower.

If you're going at this arse backwards and preceding from the notion that you want to sack Brady, only then do you ignore the table on page 77 of the report. This is what Wells did. He ignored his own data.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Good article by Charles Pierce summing up this whole debacle.
"I think anyone who advocates a more serious punishment than that (2 game suspension), and anyone who equates Brady with Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds, is a dangerous child who should be kept away from the public for the same reason we keep toddlers out of the cutlery. (And I’m someone who thinks the whole PED issue is hysterical nonsense.) “Cheating” is not cheating. That’s why Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame and Eddie Cicotte is not."
- Charles Pierce

The cartoon is great too


http://grantland.com/the-triangle/b...eport-and-the-embattled-patriots-quarterback/

 

[superjohn]

So, let me see if I understand you correctly.

Ortiz is okay because even though there's a supposed failed test per the NY Times, there's no circumstantial evidence (other than befriending Manny and a huge jump in production from the Twins).

Sosa isn't okay. He supposedly failed a test per the NY Times, but he has a lot more circumstantial evidence against him.

And Tom Brady is fine. The only circumstantial evidence against him is 11 of 12 balls all falling under the legal limit. oh, and the footballs being handled by a guy with the nickname "The Deflator" and Brady gave him autographed merch for helping him out.

Funny how a guy nicknamed "nomar" finds just enough of a crack to let off the two Boston guys.

No circumstantial evidence with Nomar, lol.

 

[upstater]

View attachment 9479 Good article by Charles Pierce summing up this whole debacle.
"I think anyone who advocates a more serious punishment than that (2 game suspension), and anyone who equates Brady with Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds, is a dangerous child who should be kept away from the public for the same reason we keep toddlers out of the cutlery. (And I’m someone who thinks the whole PED issue is hysterical nonsense.) “Cheating” is not cheating. That’s why Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame and Eddie Cicotte is not."
- Charles Pierce

The cartoon is great too


http://grantland.com/the-triangle/b...eport-and-the-embattled-patriots-quarterback/

Funny that he spoke in Salem last night. The first accusers in Salem were the Goodwins.
Hmmmmmm.

 

[nomar]

He may have done greenies, yeah that's it. Facepalm.

That's what your crony Zyron said.

 

[nomar]

You must be the tiest lawyer of all time. You just absolved Ortiz of juicing and said Sosa failed the same MLB test but the reason it's clear Sosa cheated is because there is a lot of circumstantial evidence. No circumstantial evidence with Ortiz, are you tin me? I get it you like Boston sports, stop with the charade and act like a normal thinking person.

This is a bad argument. I distinguished the evidence against the two players. You came back with an insult. Got it.

 

[nomar]

You do know that steroids have been refined in effect and dosage since Barry and Sammy don't you? A-Rod's head doesn't look like Barry's either. The drugs are more subtle and don't have the dramatic body effects any more. The other thing you seem unaware of, Counselor, is that the technology to hide PED use has moved faster than than the science to detect PED use.
So your defense of Ortiz by body changes is meaningless. Even passing drug tests means little.

All of you guys seem to think I'm trying to prove Ortiz's innocence, rather than pointing out that the evidence against him is very thin.

I'm astounded by the certainty with which people state that Ortiz is a serial "cheater."

Your entire patronizing post sure supports the conclusion that Ortiz could be a serial PED abuser who hasn't been caught in the last 12 years. Congratulations. I never said otherwise. But congratulations all the same.

 

[nomar]

So, let me see if I understand you correctly.

Ortiz is okay because even though there's a supposed failed test per the NY Times, there's no circumstantial evidence (other than befriending Manny and a huge jump in production from the Twins).

Sosa isn't okay. He supposedly failed a test per the NY Times, but he has a lot more circumstantial evidence against him.

And Tom Brady is fine. The only circumstantial evidence against him is 11 of 12 balls all falling under the legal limit. oh, and the footballs being handled by a guy with the nickname "The Deflator" and Brady gave him autographed merch for helping him out.

Funny how a guy nicknamed "nomar" finds just enough of a crack to let off the two Boston guys.

Read more slowly next time. I didn't defend Brady. I hardly think it's the crime of the century, but point me to where I said he's fine.

And yes, I laid out the circumstantial evidence against Sosa. "Befriending Manny" is weak. That smears every Latin player he's played with. Come on. And a "huge" jump in production as a player enters his prime is something that happens with every star athlete.

Whatever. I've never seen you give an inch in an argument once you've decided on a position.

 

[Deepster]

How about this guy? He never failed a test.

 

[nomar]

How about this guy? He never failed a test.

No comment.

 

[Dogdeacon]

How about this guy? He never failed a test.

Difference with both Nomar & Sosa is that both broke down like a house of glass which although just circumstantial evidence is simultaneously incriminating evidence of steroid use. The way Sosa walked away and far as I know has never been heard from since seems close to admission of guilt. But again, so what?

I standby Pierce's assertion that if you conflate steroids with doctoring balls and cheaters you are acting more of a hysteric out of dislike for a team/fans. Then also upset and blaming fans for loyalty and taking up the defense. Are fan supposed to be loyal or mercurial?

ARod is a great poster boy for the state of the steroid affair. He paid a year off for his crimes, his legacy is 'tainted', but now he's playing baseball again. I was at Fenway when he hit his660th to win the game amidst a chorus of boos (I didn't join in out of apathy). Now last night he gets a curtain call at Yankee stadium for hitting his 661st. Are Yankee fans hypocritical biased maniacs? No, they are simply sports fans cheering for their team. I'm over it.

 

[freescooter]

I was shocked when I read this thread. I thought it was about how the Pats domination of the AFC never ends. Or maybe how they never stop winning Super Bowls.

 

[Dove]

Was home sick yesterday and was watching a little of the Super Bowl 13 (Pitt v. Dal) that NFL Network was playing. And there was Hollywood Hendersoon mugging to the camera with fingers dripping with stickum. I am sure that was cheating that the NFL didn't care about back then.

The NFL knew of the deflated ball accusations and didn't care until pressed.

Meh

 

[Rocktheworld]

Are you kidding me? You straight up said "IF IT WEREN'T FOR UCONN, KENTUCKY WOULD HAVE 3 NC". 2011? Who's to say Butler wouldn't have beaten Kentucky? Who's the real dense one... My point was that Calipari isn't as successful in his respective sport as Belichick, therefore it's EASIER to bash Calipari, and the what-if game is completely irrelevant.

I guess pedantic would be the more appropriate word, but I think being dense is almost a prerequisite for being pedantic

 

[FrostyNuggets]

Was home sick yesterday and was watching a little of the Super Bowl 13 (Pitt v. Dal) that NFL Network was playing. And there was Hollywood Hendersoon mugging to the camera with fingers dripping with stickum. I am sure that was cheating that the NFL didn't care about back then.

The NFL knew of the deflated ball accusations and didn't care until pressed.

Meh

Stickum was legal then. Was outlawed a couple years later after Lester Hayes used it as styling mousse.

 

[upstater]

Stickum was legal then. Was outlawed a couple years later after Lester Hayes used it as styling mousse.

So, when Jerry Rice used it during the Super Bowls it was illegal?

 

[David 76]

I don't think Brady is guilty of a serious offense like PEDs. My guess would be most of the opposition here doesn't. Several of us have said "minor deal, admit it & move on"
But what the defenders of Boston sports are hearing, and continue to miss the point, is that the rest of us are incredulous at your across the board defensiveness and dismissal of any and all evidence against Boston teams. When not denying whatever evidence, it becomes "well, everybody does it, they are just picking on us. It is the victim mentality that is so common among Boston fans.

Deflategate is a minor issue. Boston teams are not the issue. It is the defensive fans that irritate.

 

[upstater]

I don't think Brady is guilty of a serious offense like PEDs. My guess would be most of the opposition here doesn't. Several of us have said "minor deal, admit it & move on"
But what the defenders of Boston sports are hearing, and continue to miss the point, is that the rest of us are incredulous at your across the board defensiveness and dismissal of any and all evidence against Boston teams. When not denying whatever evidence, it becomes "well, everybody does it, they are just picking on us. It is the victim mentality that is so common among Boston fans.

Deflategate is a minor issue. Boston teams are not the issue. It is the defensive fans that irritate.

I've brought up actual facts.

No one has disputed them yet.

I brought up the fact that Wells report on pg. 77 says the balls should have fallen by 1.22.

They fell by 1.20.

In other words, there's no evidence of tampering at all.

The texts are damning but irrelevant, as relevant as Rodgers saying he had the balls reinflated after the refs deflated them, or like the Vikes and Jags messing with the balls after the refs let them go. In other words, admitting you did something in the past isn't an issue because the balls actually showed no sign of tampering.

I think it's clear in the texts that Brady was angry that he was playing with overinflated balls and he wanted the equip guy to make sure it doesn't happen. But the balls in question were 16 PSI and the equip guy even wrote in his text to the ballguy that he needed to get them down to 13 PSI. Into spec.

Brady appears to have been questioned about this because he is quoted as telling the equip guy to go into the refs room and read them the rulebook that the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI.

His guys messed with the balls after the fact, which they shouldn't have. But we don't know when or absolutely IF they did that in the past. We do know they didn't do it in the game in which Brady was angry or he wouldnt have been angry.

At the end of the day, here's what it comes down to for me. The balls were exactly where science predicts they should be, according to the Wells report. If they had been tampered with, they should have been lower.

Wells dismissed the science because he thought the texts were smoking guns. He also thought the fact the guys were joking about Uggs meant this was a quid pro quo pay off by Brady.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't think Brady is guilty of a serious offense like PEDs. My guess would be most of the opposition here doesn't. Several of us have said "minor deal, admit it & move on"
But what the defenders of Boston sports are hearing, and continue to miss the point, is that the rest of us are incredulous at your across the board defensiveness and dismissal of any and all evidence against Boston teams. When not denying whatever evidence, it becomes "well, everybody does it, they are just picking on us. It is the victim mentality that is so common among Boston fans.

Deflategate is a minor issue. Boston teams are not the issue. It is the defensive fans that irritate.

Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean you aren't trying to kill us.

Again, fans root for and defend their teams. Just because I've lived in Boston for 20 years that doesn't somehow make me defend David Ortiz or Pedro any more zealously than I'd defend Jim Calhoun. None are perfect, don't expect them to be, but they've made my sports rooting lifetime damn exciting, I'd take them all over again exactly as-is and because of that if you are going to criticize them you are going to hear from me.

 

[intlzncster]

People have really lost their minds on this.
I keep pointing to Wells' own stat table on page 77. It shows the Patriots balls were not deflated by hand.
After that, what does anyone want to know?
I can see there's been absolutely no analysis on this board.

I'm not saying this to passive aggressive at all. The people who are arguing with you aren't actually interested in analysis. They have their narrative and that's what they want. It's not a big deal really.

 

[Dave Carlson]

I've brought up actual facts.

No one has disputed them yet.

I brought up the fact that Wells report on pg. 77 says the balls should have fallen by 1.22.

They fell by 1.20.

In other words, there's no evidence of tampering at all.

The texts are damning but irrelevant, as relevant as Rodgers saying he had the balls reinflated after the refs deflated them, or like the Vikes and Jags messing with the balls after the refs let them go. In other words, admitting you did something in the past isn't an issue because the balls actually showed no sign of tampering.

I think it's clear in the texts that Brady was angry that he was playing with overinflated balls and he wanted the equip guy to make sure it doesn't happen. But the balls in question were 16 PSI and the equip guy even wrote in his text to the ballguy that he needed to get them down to 13 PSI. Into spec.

Brady appears to have been questioned about this because he is quoted as telling the equip guy to go into the refs room and read them the rulebook that the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI.

His guys messed with the balls after the fact, which they shouldn't have. But we don't know when or absolutely IF they did that in the past. We do know they didn't do it in the game in which Brady was angry or he wouldnt have been angry.

At the end of the day, here's what it comes down to for me. The balls were exactly where science predicts they should be, according to the Wells report. If they had been tampered with, they should have been lower.

Wells dismissed the science because he thought the texts were smoking guns. He also thought the fact the guys were joking about Uggs meant this was a quid pro quo pay off by Brady.

I hope that these posts are coming from inside a psychiatric facility where a team of highly trained professionals are providing you the round-the-clock mental health services you so obviously need.

 

[upstater]

I'm not saying this to passive aggressive at all. The people who are arguing with you aren't actually interested in analysis. They have their narrative and that's what they want. It's not a big deal really.

I take it seriously for good reason. I go to games in NYC and Buffalo and sometimes Pitt, even Detroit. It just gets old. I have to tune it out. It didn't bother me for awhile but it gets old after 5 years of it. Relentless. That being said, it's the exact same stuff I hear about Calhoun and UConn and academics, and I didn't even go to UConn.

 

[upstater]

I hope that these posts are coming from inside a psychiatric facility where a team of highly trained professionals are providing you the round-the-clock mental health services you so obviously need.

And another guy who cant read