LaVols and Holly: Local Dissatisfaction Growing (merged thread)

[DefenseBB]

Oh, I kind of skipped over that due to our fine UW fan @nwhoopfan promoting his alma mater!

 

[JordyG]

There is of course this.

Saving The Lady Vols | Orange and White Report

 

[Plebe]

There is of course this.

Saving The Lady Vols | Orange and White Report

I'll take the bait. For a long time I bit my tongue during the period of postmortem hagiography following Pat's untimely passing, but no longer:

Just as Summitt created the Lady Vols program and legacy, she also created women’s basketball as an NCAA sport.​

​

Seriously? "Created women's basketball as an NCAA sport"?! As Bill Walton would say: "Please!" Women's basketball became an NCAA sport because the NCAA (under pressure, of course) decided to sanction women's basketball in the early 1980s. Not because Pat waved her magic wand or sternly glared at somebody.

​

As a result, UT is more conscious of its women’s basketball program than almost any other school. Sure…some UConn fan will question everything I just said, but if they know anything about the sport at all, then they know their arguments are lies. Without Pat, there’s no Geno…there’s no Tara.​

Again, I can't stomach this strain of hyperbole. Pat was in many ways a pioneer and a towering figure in the sport. But there were in fact other coaches, and other basketball programs, that achieved excellence both before and during her heyday. Geno and Tara were both on their way to building great success before Pat ever won her first national championship at Tennessee. To say they would've been nothing without Pat is not only dishonest, it's insulting.

The Tennessee fans' angst is of course understandable, but enough already with the self-serving fairy tales.

 

[triaddukefan]

Alaska Anchorage isn't even leading the mighty GNAC conference, Northwest Nazarene of Nampa, ID is a game up on them, with Central Washington (my alma mater!) nipping at their heels.

Gimme my Seawolves to cover the next time they face CWU

 

[Plebe]

Alaska Anchorage isn't even leading the mighty GNAC conference, Northwest Nazarene of Nampa, ID is a game up on them, with Central Washington (my alma mater!) nipping at their heels.

One fun fact I find fascinating about the Great Northwest Athletic Conference is that it includes the only NCAA team located outside the United States: Simon Fraser University near Vancouver BC.

 

[WestsideWaltz]

Don't think you are giving Nikki( it was Caldwell at the time) enough credit in either recruiting or coaching. For one she did snag Markel Walker out of Philly to play at UCLA. Markel was the #4 recruit in the 2009 class I don't believe UCLA has ever had a higher rated recruit in WCBB. During the 2010-11 season Nikki brought her UCLA team into ND and came away with a double OT win. This was the same season ND lost in the national championship game to Texas A&M. That ND team had 8 losses on the season but the only other team to beat ND at home was UCONN-with Maya dropping 31. UCLA would finish that season with 5 total loses the fewest in program history. Nikki was 72 and 26 at UCLA =winning percentage of 73% . Cori Close is 150 and 86=winning percentage 63% KAthy Oliver was 232–208= winning percentage of 52%
Within the conference UCLA finished 2nd twice in three season under Nikki. In 8 years under Close UCLA nad never finished higher than 3rd, and one season finished 8th. Additionally Kathy Oliver had three consecutive losing seasons after her initial campaign at UCLA. Of the last three UCLA coach Nikki was the most productive by a mile.

Maybe you missed where I said I thought she was an excellent x's and o's coach. What she also was at UCLA was a poor administrator and an arrogant personality. Markel Walker was ranked #4 in 2009 and the others were #1, Griner, #2, Bone and #3 Diggins. Did she ever seem that to anyone? In the season when Caldwell Fargas left, Walker had asked for a transfer as did three other players. In 2009, Caldwell signed #4 Walker, Mariah Williams (unranked) and a walk-on, Jackie Shepherd. In 2010, she signed Thea Lemberger, Corrine Costa and Rhema Gardner, all unranked. Her recruiting picked up in 2011 with the signing of #10 Justine Hartman (who went to Cal and was their highest rated recruit to that time and was a total bust because of injuries), #25 Kacy Swain, #27 Sheila Boykin who followed her to LSU. This was also the season she made the unbelievable decision to try to recruit Erica Payne over Reshanda Gray. That is amazingly underwhelming for three seasons at a school that allegedly recruits itself.

If you want to go stats, Caldwell Fargas was 19-12, 9-9 and 4th in the conference in her first season with Kathy Olivier's recruits. KO's final season was 16-15, 10-8 and also 4th T in conference. Before Dixon joined in Caldwell Fargas' second season, UCLA was 4-3. With her they went 21-6 and Dixon was the high scorer and rebounder on the team. However, under Caldwell, UCLA never accomplished what was the apex at that time, which was to beat Stanford. Both Close and Olivier accomplished that. In fact, KO was thought to be on her way out before beating Stanford in the tournament and it bought her a few more seasons.

A lot of those numbers sound a lot like the arguments for keeping Holly. At the end, both Olivier and Close went to the Elite Eight. Olivier should have made it to the Final Four with that Alabama ending. KO, as mediocre a coach as can be, still brought UCLA a conference title and a tournament title. The best Caldwell Fargas did at UCLA were two seconds in conference and two second round losses in the tournament and she has never achieved higher than a Sweet 16 at LSU.

And there you have a UCLA portrait of a coach people want at Tennessee?

 

[DefenseBB]

Ok my fine friend, just when some of us felt maybe we were a tad insensitive to this program, this jackwagon once again reminds us why you need to "see Jason die" so he doesn't come back with the machete again. So, let me give you the "sunshine" of this blowhard "And make no mistake: the Pat Summitt coaching tree is massive, with former players and coaches all over the country who know in the depths of their souls what being the Lady Vols’ head coach entails. Fulmer should go to that list first because he knows how imperative those Volunteers ties really are."

Yes, this tree is massive, with absolutely NO ONE of note who has actually done anything in WCBB, so yes, please do the rest of us a favor and hire one these people!
The hiring of any of these would be the final blow to Jason! Go for it Phil, go for it...

 

[CocoHusky]

You can move about 1:00 into this clip. Rennia says something as she's passing the coaches, and Holly is quick to react. Holly misses the entire ensuing Tennessee possession while she's still glowering over Rennia.

Rennia first threw the towel on the ground which was very disrespectful and inconsiderate of the player coming into the game to replace you. It is not your teammate's fault that you are screwing up and the coaches is taking you out of the game. I think that was what first triggered Holly-and I don't blame her in this instance.

 

[CocoHusky]

Maybe you missed where I said I thought she was an excellent x's and o's coach. What she also was at UCLA was a poor administrator and an arrogant personality. Markel Walker was ranked #4 in 2009 and the others were #1, Griner, #2, Bone and #3 Diggins. Did she ever seem that to anyone? In the season when Caldwell Fargas left, Walker had asked for a transfer as did three other players. In 2009, Caldwell signed #4 Walker, Mariah Williams (unranked) and a walk-on, Jackie Shepherd. In 2010, she signed Thea Lemberger, Corrine Costa and Rhema Gardner, all unranked. Her recruiting picked up in 2011 with the signing of #10 Justine Hartman (who went to Cal and was their highest rated recruit to that time and was a total bust because of injuries), #25 Kacy Swain, #27 Sheila Boykin who followed her to LSU. This was also the season she made the unbelievable decision to try to recruit Erica Payne over Reshanda Gray. That is amazingly underwhelming for three seasons at a school that allegedly recruits itself.

If you want to go stats, Caldwell Fargas was 19-12, 9-9 and 4th in the conference in her first season with Kathy Olivier's recruits. KO's final season was 16-15, 10-8 and also 4th T in conference. Before Dixon joined in Caldwell Fargas' second season, UCLA was 4-3. With her they went 21-6 and Dixon was the high scorer and rebounder on the team. However, under Caldwell, UCLA never accomplished what was the apex at that time, which was to beat Stanford. Both Close and Olivier accomplished that. In fact, KO was thought to be on her way out before beating Stanford in the tournament and it bought her a few more seasons.

A lot of those numbers sound a lot like the arguments for keeping Holly. At the end, both Olivier and Close went to the Elite Eight. Olivier should have made it to the Final Four with that Alabama ending. KO, as mediocre a coach as can be, still brought UCLA a conference title and a tournament title. The best Caldwell Fargas did at UCLA were two seconds in conference and two second round losses in the tournament and she has never achieved higher than a Sweet 16 at LSU.

And there you have a UCLA portrait of a coach people want at Tennessee?

Full disclosure, I know Markel and her sister who played at Pitt well enough to tell you that she was not the most coachable or easy player to motivate. I'm also a UCONN fan not advocating for Nikki to go to TN . Just want to set the record straight on Nikki time at UCLA.
Couple of observations: If your contention was that Nikki finished 4th in the conference " with Kathy Oliver's players" hopefully you realize that was the lowest Nikki finished in the conference in her 3 years at UCLA.
I didn't miss the part where you said she was an "excellent x's and o's coach". I was responding to the things like you calling her a poor administrator and arrogant personality -sounds unrelated to basketball.
Cori Close missed the NCAA tournament in 3 of her first 4 years at UCLA. But that WNIT championship in 2015 looms pretty large though for UCLA.

 

[WestsideWaltz]

A

Full disclosure, I know Markel and her sister who played at Pitt well enough to tell you that she was not the most coachable or easy player to motivate. I'm also a UCONN fan not advocating for Nikki to go to TN . Just want to set the record straight on Nikki time at UCLA.
Couple of observations: If your contention was that Nikki finished 4th in the conference " with Kathy Oliver's players" hopefully you realize that was the lowest Nikki finished in the conference in her 3 years at UCLA.
I didn't miss the part where you said she was an "excellent x's and o's coach". I was responding to the things like you calling her a poor administrator and arrogant personality -sounds unrelated to basketball.
Cori Close missed the NCAA tournament in 3 of her first 4 years at UCLA. But that WNIT championship in 2015 looms pretty large though for UCLA.

My contention was that one player, Jasmine Dixon propelled her final two years at UCLA. As for being a poor administrator and arrogant personality, it has a lot to do with being a basketball coach as she also alienated a lot of the local coaching community with her personality and many responsibilities and duties that head coaches do were neglected or palmed off to others. That is significant in a coaching search. Her relationships with her assistant coaches, especially Mickie DeMoss, has also been questionable.

Cori Close missed the NCAA tournament her first three years. True. And whose recruits was she working with? Take a look at Washington to see how quickly a top program can fall when the previous coach did not do their job. Secondly, although I find Close a very average, mediocre coach and felt she underachieved with her #1 class, her last three seasons with her own players had two Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight. Caldwell Fargas has never achieved that in three seasons anywhere and her record at LSU has been almost schizophrenic but never high achieving.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

I can't imagine any scenario where Phillip Fulmer forces Holly Warlick out, mid-season.

1) They've worked in the same athletics department together for decades;
2) Holly has not only worked at UT for decades, she played and was a star there;
3) They gain nothing by firing her, mid-season, and that might even tick off some current players and encourage them to transfer.

 

[JoePgh]

As I have said before, there is one possible candidate who stands out in my mind as the logical (and good) choice to succeed Holly: Shea Ralph!

Because the world (specifically including the LV fanbase and the Utenn administration) is not logical, it won't happen, but it should.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I've never understood what the point was of firing someone mid-season for losing.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I'll take the bait. For a long time I bit my tongue during the period of postmortem hagiography following Pat's untimely passing, but no longer:

Just as Summitt created the Lady Vols program and legacy, she also created women’s basketball as an NCAA sport.​

​

Seriously? "Created women's basketball as an NCAA sport"?! As Bill Walton would say: "Please!" Women's basketball became an NCAA sport because the NCAA (under pressure, of course) decided to sanction women's basketball in the early 1980s. Not because Pat waved her magic wand or sternly glared at somebody.

​

As a result, UT is more conscious of its women’s basketball program than almost any other school. Sure…some UConn fan will question everything I just said, but if they know anything about the sport at all, then they know their arguments are lies. Without Pat, there’s no Geno…there’s no Tara.​

Again, I can't stomach this strain of hyperbole. Pat was in many ways a pioneer and a towering figure in the sport. But there were in fact other coaches, and other basketball programs, that achieved excellence both before and during her heyday. Geno and Tara were both on their way to building great success before Pat ever won her first national championship at Tennessee. To say they would've been nothing without Pat is not only dishonest, it's insulting.

The Tennessee fans' angst is of course understandable, but enough already with the self-serving fairy tales.

Any article that comes out of Tennessee is going to be pro-Pat..... they should be extremely proud of her accomplishments.... she did bring WCBB to a new level.... just as Geno has done in his tenure....

But of course the article has a few questionable claims.... the aforementioned statement that Pat WAS women's basketball.... well that is disrespectful to those who were big before Pat came on the stage.... Immaculata.... Ol;d Dominion.... La Tech.... even Auburn and Southern Cal.... and would Pat have kept winning at an amazing clip had her disease not taken her.... I do not know... after the curfuffel with UConn and the march to the NCAA.... her recruiting strategy seemed to change to "get the best athlete".... after Candace won 2 titles, Tennessee fell off the map..... and Pat hand picked Holly.... who is not "unflinching" and "strong" as the article says is true of all true Lady Vols....

And following a legend is not "basically impossible" .... Bill Walsh was a bad example... I think George Siefert won a Super Bowl in the immediate wake of Walsh's departure.....

Legends are hard to follow largely because athletic departments get sentimental and want to reward loyalty instead of mounting a full scale search for the best person.... that is how you get a Craig Esherick or Bruiser Flint....

Pat was great in her time, yet not worthy of sainthood to the degree they say in the Volunteer State.

 

[bballnut90]

As I have said before, there is one possible candidate who stands out in my mind as the logical (and good) choice to succeed Holly: Shea Ralph!

Because the world (specifically including the LV fanbase and the Utenn administration) is not logical, it won't happen, but it should.

I'd rather get someone with head coaching experience, but I'd be very happy with Shea at Tennessee. Great competitor, UCONN has reached a new level since she's been on staff, and I think her Mom attended UT or had some sort of connection to Pat. Shea has also said some really positive things about Tennessee in the past so I think she'd be welcomed by the majority of the fan base. The big concern would be if she jumps ship when Geno retires, especially if Shea has a good start at Tennessee she'd be the obvious candidate by that point.

 

[JordyG]

I'll take the bait. For a long time I bit my tongue during the period of postmortem hagiography following Pat's untimely passing, but no longer:

Just as Summitt created the Lady Vols program and legacy, she also created women’s basketball as an NCAA sport.​

​

Seriously? "Created women's basketball as an NCAA sport"?! As Bill Walton would say: "Please!" Women's basketball became an NCAA sport because the NCAA (under pressure, of course) decided to sanction women's basketball in the early 1980s. Not because Pat waved her magic wand or sternly glared at somebody.

​

As a result, UT is more conscious of its women’s basketball program than almost any other school. Sure…some UConn fan will question everything I just said, but if they know anything about the sport at all, then they know their arguments are lies. Without Pat, there’s no Geno…there’s no Tara.​

Again, I can't stomach this strain of hyperbole. Pat was in many ways a pioneer and a towering figure in the sport. But there were in fact other coaches, and other basketball programs, that achieved excellence both before and during her heyday. Geno and Tara were both on their way to building great success before Pat ever won her first national championship at Tennessee. To say they would've been nothing without Pat is not only dishonest, it's insulting.

The Tennessee fans' angst is of course understandable, but enough already with the self-serving fairy tales.

I think the words self serving and self righteous applies the the article in question. But also note that those who walk around with UT blinders are mostly calling for Holly's Head. In Game of Thrones Varys says to Littlefinger at one point, "...and who doesn't like to see their friends fail now and then". GRR Martin however says nothing about those who we find repulsive. For the failure of those we rejoice.

 

[HuskyNan]

I'll take the bait. For a long time I bit my tongue during the period of postmortem hagiography following Pat's untimely passing, but no longer:

Just as Summitt created the Lady Vols program and legacy, she also created women’s basketball as an NCAA sport.​

​

Seriously? "Created women's basketball as an NCAA sport"?! As Bill Walton would say: "Please!" Women's basketball became an NCAA sport because the NCAA (under pressure, of course) decided to sanction women's basketball in the early 1980s. Not because Pat waved her magic wand or sternly glared at somebody.

​

As a result, UT is more conscious of its women’s basketball program than almost any other school. Sure…some UConn fan will question everything I just said, but if they know anything about the sport at all, then they know their arguments are lies. Without Pat, there’s no Geno…there’s no Tara.​

Again, I can't stomach this strain of hyperbole. Pat was in many ways a pioneer and a towering figure in the sport. But there were in fact other coaches, and other basketball programs, that achieved excellence both before and during her heyday. Geno and Tara were both on their way to building great success before Pat ever won her first national championship at Tennessee. To say they would've been nothing without Pat is not only dishonest, it's insulting.

The Tennessee fans' angst is of course understandable, but enough already with the self-serving fairy tales.

Debbie Ryan at Virginia, Geno’s mentor, was also a giant of her day. Tenn couldn’t become a great team in a vacuum, it needed a foil and Virginia, along with La Tech, USC, Old Dominion, and Texas provided one. So, no, PHS didn’t create the sport and Geno would have been fine without the LVs.

 

[VA Huskie]

If I were a neutral observer (I'm not), the biggest thing that would bother me about Holly is that she simply wastes a lot of the top talent that comes through Tennessee. If you look at top recruits who were almost exclusively coached by Holly (2011 class-present), the lack of player development and results is just awful:

Ariel Massengale-#3 recruit in 2011, never became an AA or WNBA player. Had a couple of solid seasons at UT.
Cierra Burdick-#4 recruit in 2011, never found success in the WNBA or became and AA.

Bashaara Graves-#5 recruit in 2012, SEC FOY and took home a NFOY award. People on this board were saying she was better than any of UCONN's freshman trio of Stewart, Tuck and Jefferson. Regressed as her career continued, became a 2nd round draft pick and played a couple of years as a deep bench player.

Mercedes Russell-#1 recruit in 2013. Never made AA and was a late 2nd round draft pick in the WNBA. Bench player as a rookie.

Diamond Deshields-#3 recruit in 2013. Played 2 years for Holly and never became an All-American after winning NFOY honors at North Carolina. Left Tennessee on bad terms, bolting to play overseas before becoming the #3 draft pick and having a good rookie season.

Jaime Nared-#6 recruit in 2014. Never became an AA and was a 2nd round draft pick in the WNBA.

Te'a Cooper-#12 recruit in 2015. Played one year and struggled, sat out a year injured and then was kicked off the team. Now is a top player and leading scorer for a top 15 team in South Carolina.

Anastasia Hayes-#7 recruit in 2017. Played 1 year and did an okay job, kicked off team. Transferred to MTSU.

Evina Westbrook-#2 recruit in 2017. Has had a good sophomore year but team is at an all-time low and at risk of not making the tournament.

Rennia Davis-#12 recruit in 2017. Had a good freshman season but has been underwhelming as a sophomore. Team at risk of not making tournament.

Zaay Green-#10 recruit in 2018. Having a good freshman season so far.


Literally not one player has developed into an All-American or even a standout on the national level. No one improves under Holly or comes close to reaching her potential. No one becomes a WNBA caliber player under her tutelage. I'd rather see these players play for coaches who will develop them and improve the sport than waste their talent.

Great points - but let’s not forget that all these young ladies chose to play for Holly!

 

[bballnut90]

Great points - but let’s not forget that all these young ladies chose to play for Holly!

Graves, Massengale and Burdick picked Tennessee when Pat was coaching. The others don't have that excuse though.

 

[VA Huskie]

Graves, Massengale and Burdick picked Tennessee when Pat was coaching. The others don't have that excuse though.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Ron and Vida]

I can't imagine any scenario where Phillip Fulmer forces Holly Warlick out, mid-season.

1) They've worked in the same athletics department together for decades;
2) Holly has not only worked at UT for decades, she played and was a star there;
3) They gain nothing by firing her, mid-season, and that might even tick off some current players and encourage them to transfer.

3A) this has probably been covered but if she left mid season would it allow the next group of recruits to transfer? Keeping that outstanding class is all important

3B) If Holly were to leave mid season it would be impossible for her
to realize her dream to be the Phoenix rising from the ashes of six defeats

 

[svetbird]

tournament is far from the truth.

Debbie Ryan at Virginia, Geno’s mentor, was also a giant of her day. Tenn couldn’t become a great team in a vacuum, it needed a foil and Virginia, along with La Tech, USC, Old Dominion, and Texas provided one. So, no, PHS didn’t create the sport and Geno would have been fine without the LVs.

Yah, I never understood the argument that Pat did anything for Geno that helped make him what he is. What did she do? She played the other best team in the nation I 95? who wouldn't want their kids to play the best? Pat always helped Pat and her team. She was never some saint who put the game above herself, and certainly didn't help Geno become Geno!

 

[CocoHusky]

Yah, I never understood the argument that Pat did anything for Geno that helped make him what he is. What did she do? She played the other best team in the nation I 95? who wouldn't want their kids to play the best? Pat always helped Pat and her team. She was never some saint who put the game above herself, and certainly didn't help Geno become Geno!

One person who did want her kids to play the best was Sylvia Hatchell the defending NCAA champion. ESPN originally offered the MLK day game to UNC. UNC (the defending national champions) refused to go to UCONN for a nationally televised game. Pat took the game so at least give her credit for that.