Last Dance | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Last Dance

I was ready to binge watch this all night. After episode 2, I ran through 4 episodes of Waco - that's a really good one. 2 episodes left for today.
 
UConnTrumbull said:
A great watch so far. Clear emphasis on Krause as the antagonist. I was too young to follow the Bulls dynasty but it’s amazing how Krause could create a 6 championship squad and be simultaneously hated by the city of Chicago.
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Krause had nothing to do with drafting Michael Jordan. The Bulls would have zero championships without Jordan and everyone in Chicago knew that but Krause. Krause acquired Pippen which was huge and he made other personnel moves that helped the team. The problem was he wanted more credit and was always giving lengthy interviews how the scouting department deserved more recognition. I'm not blaming Krause alone but the Bulls were horrible during the last six years of his GM tenure. And don't get me started on Reinsdorf. If he hadn't lucked into Jordan with the third pick in '84 the Bulls would have zero championships during Reinsdorf's ownership. The Bulls haven't been to a conference finals since Jordan left. He has also owned the White Sox since '81 and they have made the playoffs five times and have won the World Series once in 39 years. Bitter Chicago fan? Not me :)
 
geordi said:
Nothing but isolation, clear outs, one on ones, and no defense.
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There is literally one team that plays like this. Anyone making this claim hasn't watched much NBA in the last 10 years.

The mid-late 90's were the absolute bottom of the NBA. That's when isolation peaked after the Jordan years, there were very few good shooters, and everyone's offense consisted of walk the ball up and run a single ball screen. It was objectively bad basketball.
 
Excalibur said:
The mid-late 90's were the absolute bottom of the NBA.
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It started declining in the late 90s but IMO '99-'07 was by far the worst era of the NBA.

Much of what people today say were the big problems in the 90s were bigger issues in the early 2000s. Heavy isolation play, uber-physical, slow pace, low-scoring games. Throw in the influx of the bad AAU-era players, every player wanting to be the next MJ to disastrous results, too many bad teams blowing picks on crappy HS players. Plus you had all of the original Dream Teamers retiring; there was a huge amount of talent leaving the league and not a ton of it entering the league--especially when it came to big men. And of course, this was the beginning of the chasm between the Eastern and Western Conference that still exists 21 years later.

The original Spurs dynasty was a complete bore, the Pistons weren't much better. The Lakers were fun but it felt like they were cheating since Shaq was the only great center in his prime left in the NBA. The East was an absolute embarrassment. Finals TV ratings went into the toilet. Eventually the league realized how bad things were and made the drastic rule changes in 2005 that have led us to our current era.
 
Anecdote: When Utah played Jordan and the Chicago Bulls for the Championship in 1996-1997, I happen to watch one of the games with Utah's ex Coach and GM, Frank Layden, at a hotel bar in Cooperstown, NY. Scott Layden I believe was the GM at that time and Frank was still associated with the team, but this trip to NY was an annual pilgrimage to meet with his 'coaching tree' from his Niagra college coaching days as a reunion. Everybody around me at the bar was a head or assistant coach at some pro or college level. Layden had been Calvin Murphy's coach. He was gregarious and happy to share his time with my group as well. I'm sure someplace I still have his business card with an invitation to present it in Utah anytime and get the royal treatment at a game. Card was in the shape and color of a basketball. Just a tidbit that only boneyarders might find of interest.
 
Lefty2one said:
It started declining in the late 90s but IMO '99-'07 was by far the worst era of the NBA.

Much of what people today say were the big problems in the 90s were bigger issues in the early 2000s. Heavy isolation play, uber-physical, slow pace, low-scoring games. Throw in the influx of the bad AAU-era players, every player wanting to be the next MJ to disastrous results, too many bad teams blowing picks on crappy HS players. Plus you had all of the original Dream Teamers retiring; there was a huge amount of talent leaving the league and not a ton of it entering the league--especially when it came to big men. And of course, this was the beginning of the chasm between the Eastern and Western Conference that still exists 21 years later.

The original Spurs dynasty was a complete bore, the Pistons weren't much better. The Lakers were fun but it felt like they were cheating since Shaq was the only great center in his prime left in the NBA. The East was an absolute embarrassment. Finals TV ratings went into the toilet. Eventually the league realized how bad things were and made the drastic rule changes in 2005 that have led us to our current era.
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True, it was more the 2000's sucking. The fact the Nets went to back to back nba finals, and the Iverson Sixers and Dwight Howard Magic went to the finals shows just how abysmal the East was. It was just bad basketball. That early Cavs Lebron team that made the finals sucked as well.
 
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Anytime theres a debate settle it on whatifsports.com
 
Chin Diesel said:
McHale, in today's game, would take his orangutan arms and behind the head jump shot and live at the top of the 3 point line banging 3's all day. His back to the basket dipsey do's and footwork would be lost because of the speed of double teams. But I feel confident he could have practiced and hits 3's all day. And no one could block or disrupt that jump shot. His bigger liability would be on defense as he was pretty bad with lateral quickness.
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I agree on the 3 point shooting, but I'm not so sure about his post game. Double teams didn't really bother him.

There aren't many people who could even remotely bother his jump hook
 
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Chin Diesel said:
I'm not getting in a debate with you over this topic.
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Im not in this debate or jumping into one, as I haven't even said a word on this so called debate. Im just suggesting something to not have peoples opinions on era's over take this thread.
 
Dream Jobbed 2.0 said:
The “no defense” take is so wrong and lazy and played out and wrong. 150-140? What? The all star game?
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Since I started watching the NBA around 1995, scoring is up and defense is down. Also way up is whining after every single whistle. And by now, the All-Star game is more like 200-190.

I do realize that talent is way up, but the game has changed immensely, and no longer the resembles the version of the game I loved, which is found at the college level. I feel like the NBA doesn't even resemble the same league from like 10-15 years ago.
 
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XLCenterFan said:
Since I started watching the NBA around 1995, scoring is up and defense is down. Also way up is whining after every single whistle. And by now, the All-Star game is more like 200-190.
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You’re too young to be talking like this.
 
As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?
 
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Lefty2one said:
As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?
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With 2018 rules and style of play the Warriors should win. With '96 rules and style of play I think the Bulls would most likely smoke them. With old rules and style of play several teams would probably manhandle GS.
 
Lefty2one said:
As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?
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Nobody in that era could guard KD

He would be averaging 60 in the 80s/90s. Athletic defenders in this era are able to hold him to 30+
 
superjohn said:
With 2018 rules and style of play the Warriors should win. With '96 rules and style of play I think the Bulls would most likely smoke them. With old rules and style of play several teams would probably manhandle GS.
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I think you're overly nostalgic for the 90s. Yeah, the traditional big - guard distinction was more important back then but GSW's Lineup of Death isn't getting manhandled by any team from any era. And just like there are advantages to having big, strong guys on the block there are advantages to having 5 guys who can get buckets on the court at once.
 
Lefty2one said:
As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?
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Lets have a series right now on what if sports.com, a 2-2-1-1-1 format, Bulls get the home court based on the better record.
 
BigErnMcCracken said:
I think you're overly nostalgic for the 90s. Yeah, the traditional big - guard distinction was more important back then but GSW's Lineup of Death isn't getting manhandled by any team from any era. And just like there are advantages to having big, strong guys on the block there are advantages to having 5 guys who can get buckets on the court at once.
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That's why I said if it's today's rules where it's no handcheck, no low post play 3 point contest the Warriors should win. 80's/90's rules and Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper wouldn't give those GS guys any breathing room. Cavs mucked it up against the Warriors in those finals and took the Warriors out of what they wanted to do. Jordan and Pippen are the two greatest perimeter defenders of all-time. 80's/90's rules the '86 Celtics would manhandle the Warriors down low and DJ would slow down Curry enough.
 
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Scoe said:
Lets have a series right now on what if sports.com, a 2-2-1-1-1 format, Bulls get the home court based on the better record.
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I just did a series best of 7 and GS won 4-2, you would have Steve Kerr the coach vs Steve Kerr the player.
 
superjohn said:
That's why I said if it's today's rules where it's no handcheck, no low post play 3 point contest the Warriors should win. 80's/90's rules and Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper wouldn't give those GS guys any breathing room. Cavs mucked it up against the Warriors in those finals and took the Warriors out of what they wanted to do. Jordan and Pippen are the two greatest perimeter defenders of all-time. 80's/90's rules the '86 Celtics would manhandle the Warriors down low and DJ would slow down Curry enough.
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It'd be interesting. The 2016 Finals are about all we have to go on; the refs let JR Smith, Shumpert & Co. get away with murder on Curry, especially off the ball, and it clearly affected him. I agree that CLE took GSW out of a lot of what they wanted to do, but that was also before KD arrived. That series was the closest thing to 90s ball that Steph had to deal with. He had an okay series, a little underwhelming with a few stinkers. And this is JR and Shumpert were talking about here, athletic guys but not great defenders. Now switch to talking about MJ, Pippen, Dennis Johnson, etc and it's something worth discussing.

KD had some struggles with Stephen Jackson's physical defense in those OKC/Spurs series 8-9 years ago.

I'm not sure anyone would manhandle GSW because having three shooters of their caliber is downright unfair but I do think MJ's Bulls could beat them.
 
Damn. Those first two episodes went by quick. I love the old footage. I cud watch that all day. Now mike just sips his drink while he sits on his throne. Glad I grew up watching him. The greatest. Can’t wait till they get into the pistons /changing of the guard - that’s gonna be good.
 
JB75 said:
Damn. Those first two episodes went by quick. I love the old footage. I cud watch that all day. Now mike just sips his drink while he sits on his throne. Glad I grew up watching him. The greatest. Can’t wait till they get into the pistons /changing of the guard - that’s gonna be good.
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That was a big glass of whiskey.
 
alphasigko said:
And they did not have the 3-point shot then!
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I read that and thought to myself that can't be right since I specifically remember a 3 point shot during the entire 1980s. Looked it up and indeed the NBA adopted the three-point line at the start of the 1979–80 season. Or is there a joke in there I missed?
 
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