Last Dance

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Since I started watching the NBA around 1995, scoring is up and defense is down. Also way up is whining after every single whistle. And by now, the All-Star game is more like 200-190.

You’re too young to be talking like this.

 

[XLCenterFan]

You’re too young to be talking like this.

I was 13 in '95

 

[Lefty2one]

As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?

 

[superjohn]

As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?

With 2018 rules and style of play the Warriors should win. With '96 rules and style of play I think the Bulls would most likely smoke them. With old rules and style of play several teams would probably manhandle GS.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?

Nobody in that era could guard KD

He would be averaging 60 in the 80s/90s. Athletic defenders in this era are able to hold him to 30+

 

[superjohn]

Nobody in that era could guard KD

He would be averaging 60 in the 80s/90s. Athletic defenders in this era are able to hold him to 30+

You're providing good comic relief. It's good to laugh in these trying times.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

With 2018 rules and style of play the Warriors should win. With '96 rules and style of play I think the Bulls would most likely smoke them. With old rules and style of play several teams would probably manhandle GS.

I think you're overly nostalgic for the 90s. Yeah, the traditional big - guard distinction was more important back then but GSW's Lineup of Death isn't getting manhandled by any team from any era. And just like there are advantages to having big, strong guys on the block there are advantages to having 5 guys who can get buckets on the court at once.

 

[Scoe]

As much as I love yesteryear's NBA, solely based on math it's hard to argue that recent GSW teams wouldn't beat every other team in league history. The modern NBA is effectively a three-point contest. GSW averaging 12 threes against other all-time great teams who either didn't shoot the three or made significantly fewer threes would be a nearly insurmountable advantage.

We're in a time where the league average is 12 3PM per game. That's the entire league, not the top teams. Putting a team like GSW in a time machine against teams who averaged fewer than 2 ('86 Boston) would be such a huge edge.

The biggest question in any all-time hypothetical is which rules are they playing under? Old illegal defense and hand-checking? Or modern rules with zone defense where you can't touch anyone?

It'd be a blast to see the '96 Bulls against '18 GSW under the old rules. Let Pippen and MJ be physical. Pippen vs KD. MJ on Klay. Harper using his length and hand-checking Steph all over the court. Rodman vs Draymond. '96 Chicago would probably translate better than any other older team because A) they had the GOAT B) they didn't heavily rely on the center position. It'd be great to see KD in the old rules too, isolating at will against smaller defenders. As great as Pippen was, how effective would he be against a 7-foot scoring machine like KD?

Lets have a series right now on what if sports.com, a 2-2-1-1-1 format, Bulls get the home court based on the better record.

 

[superjohn]

I think you're overly nostalgic for the 90s. Yeah, the traditional big - guard distinction was more important back then but GSW's Lineup of Death isn't getting manhandled by any team from any era. And just like there are advantages to having big, strong guys on the block there are advantages to having 5 guys who can get buckets on the court at once.

That's why I said if it's today's rules where it's no handcheck, no low post play 3 point contest the Warriors should win. 80's/90's rules and Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper wouldn't give those GS guys any breathing room. Cavs mucked it up against the Warriors in those finals and took the Warriors out of what they wanted to do. Jordan and Pippen are the two greatest perimeter defenders of all-time. 80's/90's rules the '86 Celtics would manhandle the Warriors down low and DJ would slow down Curry enough.

 

[Scoe]

Lets have a series right now on what if sports.com, a 2-2-1-1-1 format, Bulls get the home court based on the better record.

I just did a series best of 7 and GS won 4-2, you would have Steve Kerr the coach vs Steve Kerr the player.

 

[Lefty2one]

That's why I said if it's today's rules where it's no handcheck, no low post play 3 point contest the Warriors should win. 80's/90's rules and Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper wouldn't give those GS guys any breathing room. Cavs mucked it up against the Warriors in those finals and took the Warriors out of what they wanted to do. Jordan and Pippen are the two greatest perimeter defenders of all-time. 80's/90's rules the '86 Celtics would manhandle the Warriors down low and DJ would slow down Curry enough.

It'd be interesting. The 2016 Finals are about all we have to go on; the refs let JR Smith, Shumpert & Co. get away with murder on Curry, especially off the ball, and it clearly affected him. I agree that CLE took GSW out of a lot of what they wanted to do, but that was also before KD arrived. That series was the closest thing to 90s ball that Steph had to deal with. He had an okay series, a little underwhelming with a few stinkers. And this is JR and Shumpert were talking about here, athletic guys but not great defenders. Now switch to talking about MJ, Pippen, Dennis Johnson, etc and it's something worth discussing.

KD had some struggles with Stephen Jackson's physical defense in those OKC/Spurs series 8-9 years ago.

I'm not sure anyone would manhandle GSW because having three shooters of their caliber is downright unfair but I do think MJ's Bulls could beat them.

 

[JB75]

Damn. Those first two episodes went by quick. I love the old footage. I cud watch that all day. Now mike just sips his drink while he sits on his throne. Glad I grew up watching him. The greatest. Can’t wait till they get into the pistons /changing of the guard - that’s gonna be good.

 

[superjohn]

Damn. Those first two episodes went by quick. I love the old footage. I cud watch that all day. Now mike just sips his drink while he sits on his throne. Glad I grew up watching him. The greatest. Can’t wait till they get into the pistons /changing of the guard - that’s gonna be good.

That was a big glass of whiskey.

 

[alphasigko]

Someone didn't watch Denver Nuggets games in the 80s.

And they did not have the 3-point shot then!

 

[HooperScooper]

And they did not have the 3-point shot then!

I read that and thought to myself that can't be right since I specifically remember a 3 point shot during the entire 1980s. Looked it up and indeed the NBA adopted the three-point line at the start of the 1979–80 season. Or is there a joke in there I missed?

 

[alphasigko]

I read that and thought to myself that can't be right since I specifically remember a 3 point shot during the entire 1980s. Looked it up and indeed the NBA adopted the three-point line at the start of the 1979–80 season. Or is there a joke in there I missed?

oops...my bad...I did not do my research...thanks for the correction

 

[Chin Diesel]

Episodes 3 and 4 really did a nice job going through the Bad Boys and Bulls rivalry. Using Rodman as a go between the two franchises and eras fit easily.

The thing I find interesting about Detroit was they were a necessary foil to make the MJ story complete. If NBA had gone straight from Magic/Bird to MJ the torch hand off is too neat and too straightforward. Andy good protagonist needs an antagonist and the Pistons were perfect at the time because they forced MJ to go beyond physical skill and individual skill to get past Detroit. MJ had to instill his mental toughness on the rest of his teammates.

Always enjoyed Isiah Thomas' game and him leading the Pistons is historically a correct sequencing of college and pro accomplishments. Between Magic at MSU and Jordan at UNC was Isiah and Indiana winning a college championship. So, to have him bridge a gap between Magic and MJ in the pros fits in well. Mahorn and Dumars were the only Pistons I liked watching. Laimbeer is still a .

The other narrative was Bulls transitioning from Doug Collins' give MJ the ball and get out of the way coaching to the Phil/Tex Winter triangle. Really lifted the curtain on how Collins didn't see he needed to change or he was getting axed. Many of us have seen this in our professional fields where a boss is trying to "assist" a subordinate by building him up a team but the reality is the boss is already putting together the replacement for the subordinate.

 

[Scoe]

Ive made Sunday night my night to get take out and stop at the liquor store, basically treating it like a football Sunday.

 

[Scoe]

Episodes 3 and 4 really did a nice job going through the Bad Boys and Bulls rivalry. Using Rodman as a go between the two franchises and eras fit easily.

The thing I find interesting about Detroit was they were a necessary foil to make the MJ story complete. If NBA had gone straight from Magic/Bird to MJ the torch hand off is too neat and too straightforward. Andy good protagonist needs an antagonist and the Pistons were perfect at the time because they forced MJ to go beyond physical skill and individual skill to get past Detroit. MJ had to instill his mental toughness on the rest of his teammates.

Always enjoyed Isiah Thomas' game and him leading the Pistons is historically a correct sequencing of college and pro accomplishments. Between Magic at MSU and Jordan at UNC was Isiah and Indiana winning a college championship. So, to have him bridge a gap between Magic and MJ in the pros fits in well. Mahorn and Dumars were the only Pistons I liked watching. Laimbeer is still a .

The other narrative was Bulls transitioning from Doug Collins' give MJ the ball and get out of the way coaching to the Phil/Tex Winter triangle. Really lifted the curtain on how Collins didn't see he needed to change or he was getting axed. Many of us have seen this in our professional fields where a boss is trying to "assist" a subordinate by building him up a team but the reality is the boss is already putting together the replacement for the subordinate.

Laimbeer is a but at least he just calls it like it is I prefer that then Isiahs phoniness. Reinsdorf is really throwing Krause under the bus in this series, when he had full reign to make the final call on the Bulls.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Ive made Sunday night my night to get take out and stop at the liquor store, basically treating it like a football Sunday.

Saw your time/date and thought I was missing tonight's episodes. In the middle of binge watching Outer Banks.

 

[superjohn]

It's totally insane how big Jordan's hands are. By far the most underrated physical attribute to look for in talented players coming up.

 

[Scoe]

It's totally insane how big Jordan's hands are. By far the most underrated physical attribute to look for in talented players coming up.

SMDH at people saying he wasnt athletic enough to play in todays NBA.

 

[Scoe]

Winning that 3rd title in a row is exhausting your usually not the best team during the year and you have to get lucky. We suspect MJ would have won 8 in a row had he not retired in after 93, I wouldnt pick against MJ but the likely hood is that the Bulls would not have won 8 in a row.

 

[superjohn]

Winning that 3rd title in a row is exhausting your usually not the best team during the year and you have to get lucky. We suspect MJ would have won 8 in a row had he not retired in after 93, I wouldnt pick against MJ but the likely hood is that the Bulls would not have won 8 in a row.

Yeah but he passed up on 4 extra years of him being hands down the best player in the league on the best team in the league, 2 with the passing of his dad tongo play baseball and 2 more with retiring really early because of Krause and the breakup of the team. 10 titles is probably too much to ask but I for sure think he would've gotten 8 rings.

 

[Scoe]

Yeah but he passed up on 4 extra years of him being hands down the best player in the league on the best team in the league, 2 with the passing of his dad tongo play baseball and 2 more with retiring really early because of Krause and the breakup of the team. 10 titles is probably too much to ask but I for sure think he would've gotten 8 rings.

I agree however, the unknown factor makes it more legendary, it actually makes it more impressive since MJ lost a full NBA calendar year without picking up a basketball in the 93-94 season we assume, knowing he had to go through all that training for baseball. Superteams like the Heat only won 2, GS couldn't win 3 in a row.