Last Dance

[Duncan Idaho]

There might have been a point in time when this was an accurate summary of the NBA but it hasn’t been in quite a few years. You might be surprised.

From a low in 05, assists per game has gotten back to early 80's level with the scoring.

 

[CL82]

Jordan misses his second season, comes back at the end of the year to singlehandey will his team to the playoffs then gets his minutes restriction lifted and goes to Boston Garden against 5 Hall of Famers and drops 49 and 63 points in game 1 and 2.

Fascinating moment in time, isn't it? Even then you could see that it was changing of the guard. Larry Bird had a great quote about Jordan that summed it up. “He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

 

[Chin Diesel]

Or Hakeem or McHale.

At his best McHale shot 60% for the season in 1987 (and was injured - he had a healthy stretch of 6 weeks over 70%!!!) while scoring 26 points game.

I think Kareem and Hakeem had games that translate well regardless of style of play because they were quick and athletic and could cover a bunch of space defensively and their offense was good out to 20' with the sky hook or dream shake. Plus they could run the court all day.

McHale, in today's game, would take his orangutan arms and behind the head jump shot and live at the top of the 3 point line banging 3's all day. His back to the basket dipsey do's and footwork would be lost because of the speed of double teams. But I feel confident he could have practiced and hits 3's all day. And no one could block or disrupt that jump shot. His bigger liability would be on defense as he was pretty bad with lateral quickness.

 

[3RingsCT]

Fascinating moment in time, isn't it? Even then you could see that it changing of the guard. Larry Bird had a great quote about Jordan that summed it up. “He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

1986 Celtics.....ugliest team in the history of pro Sports

 

[Chin Diesel]

Fascinating moment in time, isn't it? Even then you could see that it changing of the guard. Larry Bird had a great quote about Jordan that summed it up. “He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

Changing of the guard, yes, but MJ still had to lose to the Celtics. Celtics would beat the Pistons. Pistons then beat Bulls and Celtics and then the Bulls were able to overtake the Pistons. I am curious how much love or dismissiveness the Last Dance gives the Bulls needing to overcome the Pistons as part of the journey to the top.

 

[Lefty2one]

Part of me wonders what Kareem would do now. Could any of these guys stop him? I doubt it. Not without doubling him. The athleticism with size now is incredible. But these guys have never even faced a real back to the basket center in their lives. The art is all but lost.

Because that art isn't winning championships and if you're a player it's not guaranteed to get you paid. The last All-NBA big man to win a championship was Duncan in 2013. If I'm a 6'11 young player I'm not spending a whole lot of time on my back-to-the-basket game, I'm spending it shooting threes and working on my pick and roll/pop game.

The problem for bigs is the current rules and zone defense and the bevy of defensive options it opens up for coaches. I love 80/90s NBA and romanticize the hell out of it but the rule changes screwed up everything. They set the wheels in motion to marginalize big men and increase the value of guards. A team now can throw weakside help pre-catch at any big man and you've pretty much neutralized him, if you want to. The old illegal defense rules were bizarre and complicated but they did favor big men. Kareem would still put up pretty big numbers in this era but I'm not sure he'd win a championship.

 

[Lefty2one]

Changing of the guard, yes, but MJ still had to lose to the Celtics. Celtics would beat the Pistons. Pistons then beat Bulls and Celtics and then the Bulls were able to overtake the Pistons. I am curious how much love or dismissiveness the Last Dance gives the Bulls needing to overcome the Pistons as part of the journey to the top.

Based on the previews for next week's two episodes they're going to spend a lot of time on it.

 

[mauconnfan]

1986 Celtics.....ugliest team in the history of pro Sports

Prettiest on the court and how they played the game though.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Based on the previews for next week's two episodes they're going to spend a lot of time on it.

Didn't see the previews for next week. Thanks.

I did the game plan going forward is 4 hours every Sunday night. 7-9 is the previous week's two episodes and 9-11 are the two new episodes each week.

 

[superjohn]

Fascinating moment in time, isn't it? Even then you could see that it was changing of the guard. Larry Bird had a great quote about Jordan that summed it up. “He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

To make what Jordan did even more incredible, that 85-86 Celtics team is arguably the best NBA team ever along with the 95-96 Bulls.

 

[XLCenterFan]

I was ready to binge watch this all night. After episode 2, I ran through 4 episodes of Waco - that's a really good one. 2 episodes left for today.

 

[QDOG5]

A great watch so far. Clear emphasis on Krause as the antagonist. I was too young to follow the Bulls dynasty but it’s amazing how Krause could create a 6 championship squad and be simultaneously hated by the city of Chicago.

Krause had nothing to do with drafting Michael Jordan. The Bulls would have zero championships without Jordan and everyone in Chicago knew that but Krause. Krause acquired Pippen which was huge and he made other personnel moves that helped the team. The problem was he wanted more credit and was always giving lengthy interviews how the scouting department deserved more recognition. I'm not blaming Krause alone but the Bulls were horrible during the last six years of his GM tenure. And don't get me started on Reinsdorf. If he hadn't lucked into Jordan with the third pick in '84 the Bulls would have zero championships during Reinsdorf's ownership. The Bulls haven't been to a conference finals since Jordan left. He has also owned the White Sox since '81 and they have made the playoffs five times and have won the World Series once in 39 years. Bitter Chicago fan? Not me

 

[Excalibur]

Nothing but isolation, clear outs, one on ones, and no defense.

There is literally one team that plays like this. Anyone making this claim hasn't watched much NBA in the last 10 years.

The mid-late 90's were the absolute bottom of the NBA. That's when isolation peaked after the Jordan years, there were very few good shooters, and everyone's offense consisted of walk the ball up and run a single ball screen. It was objectively bad basketball.

 

[Lefty2one]

The mid-late 90's were the absolute bottom of the NBA.

It started declining in the late 90s but IMO '99-'07 was by far the worst era of the NBA.

Much of what people today say were the big problems in the 90s were bigger issues in the early 2000s. Heavy isolation play, uber-physical, slow pace, low-scoring games. Throw in the influx of the bad AAU-era players, every player wanting to be the next MJ to disastrous results, too many bad teams blowing picks on crappy HS players. Plus you had all of the original Dream Teamers retiring; there was a huge amount of talent leaving the league and not a ton of it entering the league--especially when it came to big men. And of course, this was the beginning of the chasm between the Eastern and Western Conference that still exists 21 years later.

The original Spurs dynasty was a complete bore, the Pistons weren't much better. The Lakers were fun but it felt like they were cheating since Shaq was the only great center in his prime left in the NBA. The East was an absolute embarrassment. Finals TV ratings went into the toilet. Eventually the league realized how bad things were and made the drastic rule changes in 2005 that have led us to our current era.

 

[Ricker]

Anecdote: When Utah played Jordan and the Chicago Bulls for the Championship in 1996-1997, I happen to watch one of the games with Utah's ex Coach and GM, Frank Layden, at a hotel bar in Cooperstown, NY. Scott Layden I believe was the GM at that time and Frank was still associated with the team, but this trip to NY was an annual pilgrimage to meet with his 'coaching tree' from his Niagra college coaching days as a reunion. Everybody around me at the bar was a head or assistant coach at some pro or college level. Layden had been Calvin Murphy's coach. He was gregarious and happy to share his time with my group as well. I'm sure someplace I still have his business card with an invitation to present it in Utah anytime and get the royal treatment at a game. Card was in the shape and color of a basketball. Just a tidbit that only boneyarders might find of interest.

 

[superjohn]

It started declining in the late 90s but IMO '99-'07 was by far the worst era of the NBA.

Much of what people today say were the big problems in the 90s were bigger issues in the early 2000s. Heavy isolation play, uber-physical, slow pace, low-scoring games. Throw in the influx of the bad AAU-era players, every player wanting to be the next MJ to disastrous results, too many bad teams blowing picks on crappy HS players. Plus you had all of the original Dream Teamers retiring; there was a huge amount of talent leaving the league and not a ton of it entering the league--especially when it came to big men. And of course, this was the beginning of the chasm between the Eastern and Western Conference that still exists 21 years later.

The original Spurs dynasty was a complete bore, the Pistons weren't much better. The Lakers were fun but it felt like they were cheating since Shaq was the only great center in his prime left in the NBA. The East was an absolute embarrassment. Finals TV ratings went into the toilet. Eventually the league realized how bad things were and made the drastic rule changes in 2005 that have led us to our current era.

True, it was more the 2000's sucking. The fact the Nets went to back to back nba finals, and the Iverson Sixers and Dwight Howard Magic went to the finals shows just how abysmal the East was. It was just bad basketball. That early Cavs Lebron team that made the finals sucked as well.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

The NBA is garbage now compared to then. No one plays defense and games end 150-140.

The Golden state warriors teams would be scoring 180 a game back then

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

The NBA is garbage now compared to then. No one plays defense and games end 150-140.

The “no defense” take is so wrong and lazy and played out and wrong. 150-140? What? The all star game?

 

[Scoe]

Anytime theres a debate settle it on whatifsports.com

 

[Chin Diesel]

Anytime theres a debate settle it on whatifsports.com

That site is terrible.

 

[OldBosd]

McHale, in today's game, would take his orangutan arms and behind the head jump shot and live at the top of the 3 point line banging 3's all day. His back to the basket dipsey do's and footwork would be lost because of the speed of double teams. But I feel confident he could have practiced and hits 3's all day. And no one could block or disrupt that jump shot. His bigger liability would be on defense as he was pretty bad with lateral quickness.

I agree on the 3 point shooting, but I'm not so sure about his post game. Double teams didn't really bother him.

There aren't many people who could even remotely bother his jump hook

 

[Scoe]

That site is terrible.

What other site can you do simulations on.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Anytime theres a debate settle it on whatifsports.com

That site is terrible.

What other site can you do simulations on.

I'm not getting in a debate with you over this topic.

 

[Scoe]

I'm not getting in a debate with you over this topic.

Im not in this debate or jumping into one, as I haven't even said a word on this so called debate. Im just suggesting something to not have peoples opinions on era's over take this thread.

 

[XLCenterFan]

The “no defense” take is so wrong and lazy and played out and wrong. 150-140? What? The all star game?

Since I started watching the NBA around 1995, scoring is up and defense is down. Also way up is whining after every single whistle. And by now, the All-Star game is more like 200-190.

I do realize that talent is way up, but the game has changed immensely, and no longer the resembles the version of the game I loved, which is found at the college level. I feel like the NBA doesn't even resemble the same league from like 10-15 years ago.