It's just so very sad

[HuskyHawk]

State Police just confirmed that he had all of the firearms in the school. Including the Sig Sauer.

The Sig is a pistol. The. 223 rifle was a Bushmaster. Neither can shoot 700 rounds in a minute.

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[HuskyHawk]

2nd dumbest comment in 24 hours. Congrats.

How so? I read it on a news site. ABC I believe.

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[8893]

So let’s state the plain facts one more time, so that they can’t be mistaken: Gun massacres have happened many times in many countries, and in every other country, gun laws have been tightened to reflect the tragedy and the tragic knowledge of its citizens afterward. In every other country, gun massacres have subsequently become rare. In America alone, gun massacres, most often of children, happen with hideous regularity, and they happen with hideous regularity because guns are hideously and regularly available.

The people who fight and lobby and legislate to make guns regularly available are complicit in the murder of those children. They have made a clear moral choice: that the comfort and emotional reassurance they take from the possession of guns, placed in the balance even against the routine murder of innocent children, is of supreme value. Whatever satisfaction gun owners take from their guns—we know for certain that there is no prudential value in them—is more important than children’s lives. Give them credit: life is making moral choices, and that’s a moral choice, clearly made.

All of that is a truth, plain and simple, and recognized throughout the world. At some point, this truth may become so bloody obvious that we will know it, too. Meanwhile, congratulate yourself on living in the child-gun-massacre capital of the known universe.

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/12/newtown-and-the-madness-of-guns.html#ixzz2F9mLRInY

 

[upstater]

If you hang around a crowd you learn to say the pc thing even if the crowd you hang around with loves sticking it to the pc bunch. Joining them in saying what they say would be the pc thing to say. It's just that no one in that group labels it that way.

PC has always been around. There were always certain things that either camp never wanted to hear.

 

[ctchamps]

PC has always been around. There were always certain things that either camp never wanted to hear.

Yeah but one group has made it a point to put another group down by saying they are "pc". It was the pc thing to say and I would laugh every time I heard it because that group was totally unaware their cliche reaction was a pc reaction.

 

[superjohn]

Fair enough, as I would consider anybody who thinks a tool, such and a gun has a mind of its own, and goes about killing someone, rather uninformed. I wouldn't call you stupid or ignorant, as you might be able to be educated. The horrible tragedy that happened is "one persons" fault, the person who planned and carried out the carnage. If you are going to blame the guns, why not call the car that he drove there a co-conspirator?

From that type of logic, I now think you are a stupid person.

 

[August_West]

You're correct so what's your point? The drugs that kill people are illegal for the most part so what is your answer? Ban guns and all our problems will be solved? Just like with drugs right?

There has to be stricter controls. Few are asking or expecting across the board bans.

Also, I love when pro gun people use the " drugs are illegal, and people still can get them" argument as they unwittingly walking into a good argument for making guns illegal.

If I offered 30 people on this board 10,000 dollars to prove they could purchase a gun pretty much all of you would be able to do so. Maybe a few would fail background check, but at least 25 of you would be successful.

If I made a similar offer of 10000 dollars to prove you could purchase a bag of heroin I promise that fewer than 5 of you would come back with heroin. Some of you will be arrested in the process, some will be outright robbed by a dealer, some will purchase what is advertised as a heroin, but isn't, and some of you will just be plain beaten down.

This is about harm reduction, and making it tougher for people to access these weapons. Which odds do you like better?


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[ctchamps]

From the type of logic, I now think you are a stupid person.

Not taking either side. His argument is used by critical thinkers everywhere. It is an argument of ad absurdum. Just read this word in an article today discussing one of the Supreme Court Justices arguments.

 

[8893]

If you are going to blame the guns, why not call the car that he drove there a co-conspirator?

There will always be people holding tight to their guns and using false logic like this to justify their moral choice that the comfort they get from their guns is more valuable than innocent children's lives. Yesterday I believed that the prevalence of this disgusting choice would continue to prevent more reasonable controls on access to the types of semi-automatic weapons used here and in other recent mass killings of innocents.

But I believe there is enough emotional capital now to overcome their choice and that perhaps it is no longer the majority. I believe that the majority of people in this country are ready to recognize that there is a better choice. Apparently the mother who obtained these guns legally was a survivalist who believed that arming herself to the teeth was necessary to protect her from some impending doomsday scenario. Like many, she failed to realize that in doing so, she dramatically increased the odds of her own death at the hand of her own weapons. It is my hope that enough people come to recognize all the fallacies being spouted that we can overcome the loud voices who continue to spout them with even louder voices calling for tighter controls.

 

[Robertelamin]

By the way, the media has absolutely sucked throughout this whole thing. How about get the story correct instead of being first.

 

[dsturdy5]

Finally sitting down to get some thoughts out on this...

I am an elementary school teacher and when I saw this during my lunch yesterday, I was in shock. I work in a k-5 school and when I went down to get my class, a kindergarten class was walking towards me coming from the library. It was surreal to say the least. I brought my class upstairs and just looked at them for a minute before starting, appreciating what I had in front of me (and believe me, this can be a very difficult class).

I agree with the poster who said that more needs to be done in schools for children who are outsiders/outcasts/whatever term you want to throw out there. However, I'd stretch that out to say that more has to be done in our society. I have had students who fit the profile of the "outcast" whom I feel I have done all in my power to help but I don't get support from support staff (guidance/adjustment counselors), parents, administration, state agencies, whomever. This has to be a societal shift to make identifying and helping these kids a priority. We (rightfully) spend millions of dollars helping kids who can't read and write get supplemental services. Where is the extra money to help kids who are lacking skills to socialize and adapt to day to day life? If we can help such people as kids, do we not help head off at least a few of these horrible tragedies?

 

[ctchamps]

It would be a start. Before $$ are invested check what successful countries (countries with lower rates of violence do) in regards to the issues being brought up in this forum. If they have less violence understanding their policies is an inexpensive start to implementing things here.

 

[tykurez]

It would be a start. Before $$ are invested check what successful countries (countries with lower rates of violence do) in regards to the issues being brought up in this forum. If they have less violence understanding their policies is an inexpensive start to implementing things here.

Study Japan

"Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world"

"In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally."

 

[Dogbreath2U]

Finally sitting down to get some thoughts out on this...

I am an elementary school teacher and when I saw this during my lunch yesterday, I was in shock. I work in a k-5 school and when I went down to get my class, a kindergarten class was walking towards me coming from the library. It was surreal to say the least. I brought my class upstairs and just looked at them for a minute before starting, appreciating what I had in front of me (and believe me, this can be a very difficult class).

I agree with the poster who said that more needs to be done in schools for children who are outsiders/outcasts/whatever term you want to throw out there. However, I'd stretch that out to say that more has to be done in our society. I have had students who fit the profile of the "outcast" whom I feel I have done all in my power to help but I don't get support from support staff (guidance/adjustment counselors), parents, administration, state agencies, whomever. This has to be a societal shift to make identifying and helping these kids a priority. We (rightfully) spend millions of dollars helping kids who can't read and write get supplemental services. Where is the extra money to help kids who are lacking skills to socialize and adapt to day to day life? If we can help such people as kids, do we not help head off at least a few of these horrible tragedies?

Some of these "outsider" kids become especially at risk for deterioration when they graduate from high school and lose the structure of the school and the role of student. Many of these kids will not be able to compete for regular jobs and will need extra support and patience if they do somehow get a chance at a job. One practical way that employers could help would be to work with high schools and special education schools to get internships and perhaps jobs that will be set up to help them succeed, one step at a time. Vulnerable kids who are isolated can really deteriorate with nothing to do and no confidence or social skills to find a place in the world as a young adult. I have no idea to what degree this fits the shooter, but there are lots of kids in this situation (lost after high school) who could desperately benefit from mentoring and job/training/intern opportunities.

 

[tzznandrew]

The "drugs are illegal and people still get them" is a bit of a red herring, as well.

First, marijuana and some other recreational drugs can be easily grown, or grown and then refined. It doesn't take the technology that it does to make an assault weapon. And the places that supply drugs don't often have the abilities to make good quality guns.

Second, there is constant demand for drugs. One person uses cocaine, and then he needs more. That isn't the same with guns.

Third, drugs are generally malleable, and easy to move in small or large quantities. Guns are no so much.

Would there be a black market for guns? Yes. Would anyone be able to get it? Not really.

Also, someone mentioned 3-D printers. Sorry, but they aren't going to be advanced enough to print out a fully working gun, with moving parts. One would need to "print" out each individual part and then put it together. That seems difficult, far more difficult than people are making it seem. And don't think that major gun companies are going to just let people print out their own guns--the lawsuits would be crazy, so I'm not overly concerned about the "soon people will be just printing out guns" future.

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

Finally sitting down to get some thoughts out on this...

I am an elementary school teacher and when I saw this during my lunch yesterday, I was in shock. I work in a k-5 school and when I went down to get my class, a kindergarten class was walking towards me coming from the library. It was surreal to say the least. I brought my class upstairs and just looked at them for a minute before starting, appreciating what I had in front of me (and believe me, this can be a very difficult class).

I agree with the poster who said that more needs to be done in schools for children who are outsiders/outcasts/whatever term you want to throw out there. However, I'd stretch that out to say that more has to be done in our society. I have had students who fit the profile of the "outcast" whom I feel I have done all in my power to help but I don't get support from support staff (guidance/adjustment counselors), parents, administration, state agencies, whomever. This has to be a societal shift to make identifying and helping these kids a priority. We (rightfully) spend millions of dollars helping kids who can't read and write get supplemental services. Where is the extra money to help kids who are lacking skills to socialize and adapt to day to day life? If we can help such people as kids, do we not help head off at least a few of these horrible tragedies?

Thank you. My first job out of law school was in the PD's office. The profiles were always predictable.

 

[ctchamps]

Study Japan

"Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world"

"In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally."

Not flaming on you but Japan has a much higher suicide rate than the US. There is a cultural difference that influences mentally unstable people to act one way in one culture and another way in another culture. I'm not arguing for or against the gun issue. I'm just trying to get a complete picture about things because if we advocate change, the more we understand human behavior the better we'll be able to predict an outcome with the changes we formulate and the more likely we'll monitor the most important negative problems that we think can arise from the changes we propose.

This article discusses firearms per 100 people throughout the world.

http://billmoyers.com/2012/07/23/mapping-gun-ownership-and-homicides-by-country/

The US is far ahead in those numbers. The problem is one person can collect multiple weapons and other people none and the numbers can get skewed if large numbers of people are collectors. But that's another issue. In spite of leading the world in weapon possession, the US is 27th in firearm homicides per 100,000 people. That is still horrible by any stretch of the imagination. But it shows that guns are not the only problem when it comes to violence otherwise the correlation would be greater.

There is one correlation we all can agree. The more destructive the weapon, the greater the likelihood that someone acting out his anger in a violent way will cause larger numbers of injuries or fatalities. The suicide bombers in 9/11 understood this.

I'm not a gun advocate. I don't own a gun or belong to the NRA. But I'm not as clear on this issue as some of you are. Certainly I abhor the violence. No one should be taken before their time especially kids. My concern is things that I see occurring around the world such as Syria or in Africa. Powerful regimes controlling weapons brutalize their unarmed citizens. My gut tells me that this is an argument with no value in the U.S., not because we are cut from a different mold then other people in the world, but because if the U.S. reached the point of military take over and a dictatorial modality of government, the militias in this country would be the first to go and the rest of us would be like ducks in the pond. But I would like to think I'm wrong about this type of prediction in any of its iterations.

 

[21Huskies]

Also, someone mentioned 3-D printers. Sorry, but they aren't going to be advanced enough to print out a fully working gun, with moving parts. One would need to "print" out each individual part and then put it together. That seems difficult, far more difficult than people are making it seem. And don't think that major gun companies are going to just let people print out their own guns--the lawsuits would be crazy, so I'm not overly concerned about the "soon people will be just printing out guns" future.

by reading this, my guess is you don't have much experience on 3-d printing. they've 3-d printed fully functioning assault weapons as well as numerous types of hand guns.

 

[tzznandrew]

by reading this, my guess is you don't have much experience on 3-d printing. they've 3-d printed fully functioning assault weapons as well as numerous types of hand guns.

Here's what I've read:

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/with-a-3-d-printer-building-a-gun-at-home/

Its from October, so it may be outdated. According to this, they've printed parts of assault weapons and numerous types of hand guns, but never whole. It does postulate that printers could that. Color me skeptical of them being able a fully functioning gun with no need of assembly.

But, frankly, I've been wrong many times before.

 

[Dougsts]

From that type of logic, I now think you are a stupid person.

From your response I would have to say that you thought process is somewhat lacking. But I wont hold it against you, I am sure you mean well.

 

[Dove]

By the way, the media has absolutely sucked throughout this whole thing. How about get the story correct instead of being first.

If I stopped following this at noon yesterday I would be beliveing that...

The killer was Ryan Lanza. That he killed his dad, brother and girlfriend in Hoboken.
Then drove to Newtown and went to the school where he shot his mother in front of her kindergarten class and then shot all her kids.

 

[Dove]

http://www.examiner.com/article/connecticut-school-shooting-westboro-baptist-church-planning-to-picket

Let's hope we don't see Oklahoma's Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[metsfan2323]

http://www.examiner.com/article/connecticut-school-shooting-westboro-baptist-church-planning-to-picket

Let's hope we don't see Oklahoma's Westboro Baptist Church.

If ever there was a need for assault rifles in the hands of citizens, the westboro baptist church might be it.

 

[HuskyHawk]

http://www.examiner.com/article/connecticut-school-shooting-westboro-baptist-church-planning-to-picket

Let's hope we don't see Oklahoma's Westboro Baptist Church.

They are based in Topeka. Hate those bastards. Picked my law school graduation and shouted disgusting things at my parents and grandmother. Scum.

 

[Brochacho]

After 9/11 they allowed retired cops to carry concealed guns across state lines, anywhere in the US. Maybe now retired cops will be hired to sit at a school? I think it would be helpful. Won't change the world, but a step in the right direction.