If Jackson Played for Calhoun…

[UCan3]

I love how this thread has evolved… We all know there’s a problem with Andre’s play - dang even Hurley himself made a point to bring attention to it earlier this week. So the thought was rather than have constructive discussion on paths forward -Anyone criticizing Andre, is in the Ant—Andre crowd.

Now we’ve come full circle with posters saying he is in top 15 players at his position….

Hmm… All I can say is I hope to be pleasantly surprised tomorrow with an outstanding performance by Andre Tomorrow - on the road vs a solid team on a winning streak - true test.

 

[jibsey]

Andre’s offensive game is a high wire act, looks spectacular and is crucial at times but with that comes mistakes, bad shooting and turnovers which if he doesn’t limit can sink the team.But his defense is great and we have to accept the total package.

 

[PAHusky]

It's funny because everyone in this thread arguing is sort of right and sort of wrong.

AJ is an elite passer and, when he's on, probably the best on ball defender in college bball.

AJ also tends to lose his head for small stretches at a time in games, getting techs, turning the ball over, sloppy d, etc. He also can't score.

AJ, and Dan Hurley, need to figure out how to harness the athleticism and the beautiful passing, while limiting the boneheaded plays and covering up his total inability to shoot. Whether that means a quicker hook, or a longer leash, or bringing him off the bench, or what. I don't think either of them have adjusted to the mid-season completely yet, but it will be interesting to see how they do.

 

[husky429]

I love how this thread has evolved… We all know there’s a problem with Andre’s play - dang even Hurley himself made a point to bring attention to it earlier this week. So the thought was rather than have constructive discussion on paths forward -Anyone criticizing Andre, is in the Ant—Andre crowd.

Now we’ve come full circle with posters saying he is in top 15 players at his position….

Hmm… All I can say is I hope to be pleasantly surprised tomorrow with an outstanding performance by Andre Tomorrow - on the road vs a solid team on a winning streak - true test.

My wife teaches an undergrad course in logic every fall. Do you mind if I send her this thread so her students can practice identifying informal fallacies?

 

[UCan3]

My wife teaches an undergrad course in logic every fall. Do you mind if I send her this thread so her students can practice identifying informal fallacies?

Now there’s a great idea! I think there are lots of good examples. I’ve been trying to pull everyone back into the fold but hey, like I said tomorrow‘s game and the few we have left, we‘ll see how this shakes out. I am rooting for AJ and yes those too who mIght need to come off the bench to help us win games.

 

[husky429]

Now there’s a great idea! I think there are lots of good examples. I’ve been trying to pull everyone back into the fold but hey, like I said tomorrow‘s game and the few we have left, we‘ll see how this shakes out. I am rooting for AJ and yes those too who mIght need to come off the bench to help us win games.

Thanks, man. She's going to get a kick out of this and she doesn't even like basketball.

 

[UCan3]

One of my favorite in the thread is where we had a poster saying your couldn’t say AJ sometimes makes dumb passes/plays without someone saying he’s “dumb.”

“I guess no one told Creighton’wing of this Boneyard rule LOL this is his quote from today’s paper:

"We emphasize it a lot, especially because we have (Ryan) Kalkbrenner back there to alter shots," Creighton wing Baylor Scheierman said. "So we don't really need to strip or get dumb fouls."

 

[Rico444]

AJ, and Dan Hurley, need to figure out how to harness the athleticism and the beautiful passing, while limiting the boneheaded plays and covering up his total inability to shoot. Whether that means a quicker hook, or a longer leash, or bringing him off the bench, or what. I don't think either of them have adjusted to the mid-season completely yet, but it will be interesting to see how they do.

His overall turnovers are low, though. A quote unquote "boneheaded" turnover does not count more than a quote unquote "regular" turnover. Unless you're suggesting that every player that ever turns the ball over should be benched, I'm not sure that's the right plan for Andre.

 

[Umami Zen]

Discussion about turnovers in thread motivated me to research definition of turnovers .. Source is Wikipedia

"In basketball ,a turnover occurs when a team loses possession of the ball to the opposing team before a player takes a shot at their team's basket. This can result from a player getting the ball stolen, stepping out of bounds, having a pass intercepted, committing a violation (such as a double dribble, traveling, shot clock violation ,three second violation/five second violation), or committing an offensive foul (including personal, flagrant, and technical fouls)."
Hoop Addict says.. "Two types of turnovers.. Forced and unforced.. Forced is as a result of good defense. Unforced is not a result of good defense . The offensive player simply made a mistake, a miscalculation, or is unaware of what's going on."

Went through this exercise for my own education and perhaps it might help others.

I would suggest that Andre's TO numbers --which have improved this year-- are occasionally influenced by others and not himself alone. The teammate who can't catch a catchable pass/fumbles it out of bounds.. TO to Andre..

 

[PAHusky]

His overall turnovers are low, though. A quote unquote "boneheaded" turnover does not count more than a quote unquote "regular" turnover. Unless you're suggesting that every player that ever turns the ball over should be benched, I'm not sure that's the right plan for Andre.

His overall turnover average, yes. But the stats don’t account for timing. The often team goes as he goes, and it seems like he turns it over/gets a tech/overextends on defense at particularly untimely points. Hence why a shorter leash may be necessary

 

[Rico444]

His overall turnover average, yes. But the stats don’t account for timing. The often team goes as he goes, and it seems like he turns it over/gets a tech/overextends on defense at particularly untimely points. Hence why a shorter leash may be necessary

This is the benefit of statistics: they take all of the emotion out of it. You may feel that Andre only turns the ball over at inopportune times, but do you have any evidence to back that up? And are you accounting for great plays he makes during those same critical times? For example, at the end of the Georgetown game when we were up 3 with 30 seconds left and he got an offensive board, that would have been a backbreaking time to turn it over; instead, he made a great pass to Karaban, who hit a game-clinching 3.

The reason the turnovers seem to be at inopportune times is because we play a lot of really good teams in this league, and as a result we play a lot of close games. If we're up 5, down 5, or somewhere between, then any mistake is going to seem critical, but the truth of the matter is every player turns the ball over at some point. That's why looking at the overall numbers is the best way to judge them.

 

[navery12]

This is the benefit of statistics: they take all of the emotion out of it. You may feel that Andre only turns the ball over at inopportune times, but do you have any evidence to back that up? And are you accounting for great plays he makes during those same critical times? For example, at the end of the Georgetown game when we were up 3 with 30 seconds left and he got an offensive board, that would have been a backbreaking time to turn it over; instead, he made a great pass to Karaban, who hit a game-clinching 3.

The reason the turnovers seem to be at inopportune times is because we play a lot of really good teams in this league, and as a result we play a lot of close games. If we're up 5, down 5, or somewhere between, then any mistake is going to seem critical, but the truth of the matter is every player turns the ball over at some point. That's why looking at the overall numbers is the best way to judge them.

If there's one thing this thread has shown it's that a lot of posters have zero understanding of how numbers and stats work

 

[husky429]

If there's one thing this thread has shown it's that a lot of posters have zero understanding of how numbers and stats work

Are you surprised? Half this board thinks we should shoot exclusively mid-range shots because 3s are icky.

 

[UCan3]

His overall turnover average, yes. But the stats don’t account for timing. The often team goes as he goes, and it seems like he turns it over/gets a tech/overextends on defense at particularly untimely points. Hence why a shorter leash may be necessary

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

 

[coachn]

When AJ gets a mid range true jump shot his offensive problems will be over. One of the best defensive players in the country.

 

[husky429]

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

Do you want him to average 0 TOs per game? 0.5? What's the number that would make him a good player in your eyes?

Or can he have 4 normal TOs as long as they aren't flashy passes?

 

[husky429]

When AJ gets a mid range true jump shot his offensive problems will be over. One of the best defensive players in the country.

I'm thinking you haven't coached in a while, @coachn

The best mid-range shooters on the planet (Derozan, Paul, Jokic, Durant are who I looked at) are shooting 45-53% from mid-range.

That's equivalent to 30% to 35% from 3.

Do you really think Andre is more likely to shoot the mid-range as well as Demar Freaking Derozan than to shoot 30% from 3?

 

[navery12]

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

The thing is though, for Andre to truly be effective he needs to be playing like that. He might have 1 or 2 bad turnovers that stick out in your head but that's being far outweighed by all of the other positive plays where he's getting assists/hockey assists for open 3's

And Hurley has openly talked about this and that this is what he wants. When you play at a faster pace and get out in transition, which is exactly what needs to be done with Andre on the court, you're going to have a few more turnovers. We all know Andre is weak in the half court offense and an elite defender. So how do you minimize the negative? Limit the half court opportunities by playing in transition when you have the option

 

[husky429]

The thing is though, for Andre to truly be effective he needs to be playing like that. He might have 1 or 2 bad turnovers that stick out in your head but that's being far outweighed by all of the other positive plays where he's getting assists/hockey assists for open 3's

And Hurley has openly talked about this and that this is what he wants. When you play at a faster pace and get out in transition, which is exactly what needs to be done with Andre on the court, you're going to have a few more turnovers. We all know Andre is weak in the half court offense and an elite defender. So how do you minimize the negative? Limit the half court opportunities by playing in transition when you have the option

Unrelated... but Hurley is doing a much better job of letting the guys play fast and accepting the TOs this year it seems.

In previous years, he'd get pretty anxious about TOs and the team would play slow... which often wasn't playing to our strength.

When you play fast, you have to accept a few more turnovers and make real-time evaluations of whether you're getting enough easy layups or open 3s to make it worth it. I think we're doing a better job striking that balance this year.

Nate Oats is (imo) the best in college bball at striking the balance.

 

[PAHusky]

Are you surprised? Half this board thinks we should shoot exclusively mid-range shots because 3s are icky.

Ha thank you for the condescension but I understand stats just fine thanks. The point is that you’re using his season long turnover statistics in response to me saying he turns it over sometimes at inopportune times. No, I’m not going to go through the game longs to find each example.

The argument isn’t that he turns it over all the time, it’s that he’s got a bad habit of playing out of control sometimes, on both ends and with the refs, and it can affect the team. I’m not saying bench him forever.

I love Jackson but some of you defend him like he’s your kid. He’s a great player with major flaws. He’s playing more within himself recently again, here’s hoping he keeps it up

 

[PAHusky]

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

That’s a good point too. Since he can’t shoot his passing is held to a higher standard. Tough but true. Sometimes can be too high of a standard and I’m certainly guilty of being too harsh.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I'm thinking you haven't coached in a while, @coachn

The best mid-range shooters on the planet (Derozan, Paul, Jokic, Durant are who I looked at) are shooting 45-53% from mid-range.

That's equivalent to 30% to 35% from 3.

Do you really think Andre is more likely to shoot the mid-range as well as Demar Freaking Derozan than to shoot 30% from 3?

It’s about having that option if he’s wide open. When Kemba developed a midrange game his whole game opened up.

I don’t think anyone is saying he should exclusively shoot midrangers. But have that option to help him be able to take the best shot period whether it’s a layup, midrange, or 3. Right now defenders literally have nothing to worry about from midrange. He won’t even attempt it.

 

[UCan3]

Do you want him to average 0 TOs per game? 0.5? What's the number that would make him a good player in your eyes?

Or can he have 4 normal TOs as long as they aren't flashy passes?

yes if I thought the turnovers he made a result of good D and he wasn’t’ simply being careless, I could live with the turnovers. He sometimes follow these with ill Advised shots or unnecessary fouls, I could live without those too. There is a certain Sense of MATURITY we need at his position if we are going to win a couple tourney games this year.

I’ll be rooting hard for AJ today as well as the rest of the team - he made some strides at Marquette game.

 

[navery12]

Sometimes can be too high of a standard and I’m certainly guilty of being too harsh.

Well we can finally agree on something!

 

[Umami Zen]

Might be scheme.. Might be by design.. Might be matchups.. But IMO.. Andre has been playing with more discipline with the ball in his hands.. He's getting it into Newton's hands quicker in recent games.. So that he(TN) can set up offense quicker in shot clock if the up court pass is not there to a shooter.

When he gets a defensive board and immediately takes ball up court in transition.. He is a weapon that Danny doesn't want to limit. Have noticed he is also getting ball up-court to Hawk --in his spots-- quicker and decisively.

He is who he is.. Too valuable on the other side of the ball/boards/50-50 balls/deflections/D to have on bench for extended periods of time. At his best.. A tremendously disruptive player