If Jackson Played for Calhoun…

[Rico444]

His overall turnover average, yes. But the stats don’t account for timing. The often team goes as he goes, and it seems like he turns it over/gets a tech/overextends on defense at particularly untimely points. Hence why a shorter leash may be necessary

This is the benefit of statistics: they take all of the emotion out of it. You may feel that Andre only turns the ball over at inopportune times, but do you have any evidence to back that up? And are you accounting for great plays he makes during those same critical times? For example, at the end of the Georgetown game when we were up 3 with 30 seconds left and he got an offensive board, that would have been a backbreaking time to turn it over; instead, he made a great pass to Karaban, who hit a game-clinching 3.

The reason the turnovers seem to be at inopportune times is because we play a lot of really good teams in this league, and as a result we play a lot of close games. If we're up 5, down 5, or somewhere between, then any mistake is going to seem critical, but the truth of the matter is every player turns the ball over at some point. That's why looking at the overall numbers is the best way to judge them.

 

[navery12]

This is the benefit of statistics: they take all of the emotion out of it. You may feel that Andre only turns the ball over at inopportune times, but do you have any evidence to back that up? And are you accounting for great plays he makes during those same critical times? For example, at the end of the Georgetown game when we were up 3 with 30 seconds left and he got an offensive board, that would have been a backbreaking time to turn it over; instead, he made a great pass to Karaban, who hit a game-clinching 3.

The reason the turnovers seem to be at inopportune times is because we play a lot of really good teams in this league, and as a result we play a lot of close games. If we're up 5, down 5, or somewhere between, then any mistake is going to seem critical, but the truth of the matter is every player turns the ball over at some point. That's why looking at the overall numbers is the best way to judge them.

If there's one thing this thread has shown it's that a lot of posters have zero understanding of how numbers and stats work

 

[husky429]

If there's one thing this thread has shown it's that a lot of posters have zero understanding of how numbers and stats work

Are you surprised? Half this board thinks we should shoot exclusively mid-range shots because 3s are icky.

 

[UCan3]

His overall turnover average, yes. But the stats don’t account for timing. The often team goes as he goes, and it seems like he turns it over/gets a tech/overextends on defense at particularly untimely points. Hence why a shorter leash may be necessary

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

 

[coachn]

When AJ gets a mid range true jump shot his offensive problems will be over. One of the best defensive players in the country.

 

[husky429]

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

Do you want him to average 0 TOs per game? 0.5? What's the number that would make him a good player in your eyes?

Or can he have 4 normal TOs as long as they aren't flashy passes?

 

[husky429]

When AJ gets a mid range true jump shot his offensive problems will be over. One of the best defensive players in the country.

I'm thinking you haven't coached in a while, @coachn

The best mid-range shooters on the planet (Derozan, Paul, Jokic, Durant are who I looked at) are shooting 45-53% from mid-range.

That's equivalent to 30% to 35% from 3.

Do you really think Andre is more likely to shoot the mid-range as well as Demar Freaking Derozan than to shoot 30% from 3?

 

[navery12]

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

The thing is though, for Andre to truly be effective he needs to be playing like that. He might have 1 or 2 bad turnovers that stick out in your head but that's being far outweighed by all of the other positive plays where he's getting assists/hockey assists for open 3's

And Hurley has openly talked about this and that this is what he wants. When you play at a faster pace and get out in transition, which is exactly what needs to be done with Andre on the court, you're going to have a few more turnovers. We all know Andre is weak in the half court offense and an elite defender. So how do you minimize the negative? Limit the half court opportunities by playing in transition when you have the option

 

[husky429]

The thing is though, for Andre to truly be effective he needs to be playing like that. He might have 1 or 2 bad turnovers that stick out in your head but that's being far outweighed by all of the other positive plays where he's getting assists/hockey assists for open 3's

And Hurley has openly talked about this and that this is what he wants. When you play at a faster pace and get out in transition, which is exactly what needs to be done with Andre on the court, you're going to have a few more turnovers. We all know Andre is weak in the half court offense and an elite defender. So how do you minimize the negative? Limit the half court opportunities by playing in transition when you have the option

Unrelated... but Hurley is doing a much better job of letting the guys play fast and accepting the TOs this year it seems.

In previous years, he'd get pretty anxious about TOs and the team would play slow... which often wasn't playing to our strength.

When you play fast, you have to accept a few more turnovers and make real-time evaluations of whether you're getting enough easy layups or open 3s to make it worth it. I think we're doing a better job striking that balance this year.

Nate Oats is (imo) the best in college bball at striking the balance.

 

[PAHusky]

Are you surprised? Half this board thinks we should shoot exclusively mid-range shots because 3s are icky.

Ha thank you for the condescension but I understand stats just fine thanks. The point is that you’re using his season long turnover statistics in response to me saying he turns it over sometimes at inopportune times. No, I’m not going to go through the game longs to find each example.

The argument isn’t that he turns it over all the time, it’s that he’s got a bad habit of playing out of control sometimes, on both ends and with the refs, and it can affect the team. I’m not saying bench him forever.

I love Jackson but some of you defend him like he’s your kid. He’s a great player with major flaws. He’s playing more within himself recently again, here’s hoping he keeps it up

 

[PAHusky]

I think his turnovers can also stand out because he has a tendency to follow up a turnover with an ill-advised or simply bad shot - and those are momentum killers.

Another thing is sometimes turnovers are due to great defense but with AJ they mostly seem to be unforced with him trying to make a pass that had zero chance of being caught.

AJ’s lack of scoring does place him under the magnifying glass a bit - more than some in this discussion would like.

I like AJ 20-23 minutes a game and we saw what that looks like against Marquette.

That’s a good point too. Since he can’t shoot his passing is held to a higher standard. Tough but true. Sometimes can be too high of a standard and I’m certainly guilty of being too harsh.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I'm thinking you haven't coached in a while, @coachn

The best mid-range shooters on the planet (Derozan, Paul, Jokic, Durant are who I looked at) are shooting 45-53% from mid-range.

That's equivalent to 30% to 35% from 3.

Do you really think Andre is more likely to shoot the mid-range as well as Demar Freaking Derozan than to shoot 30% from 3?

It’s about having that option if he’s wide open. When Kemba developed a midrange game his whole game opened up.

I don’t think anyone is saying he should exclusively shoot midrangers. But have that option to help him be able to take the best shot period whether it’s a layup, midrange, or 3. Right now defenders literally have nothing to worry about from midrange. He won’t even attempt it.

 

[UCan3]

Do you want him to average 0 TOs per game? 0.5? What's the number that would make him a good player in your eyes?

Or can he have 4 normal TOs as long as they aren't flashy passes?

yes if I thought the turnovers he made a result of good D and he wasn’t’ simply being careless, I could live with the turnovers. He sometimes follow these with ill Advised shots or unnecessary fouls, I could live without those too. There is a certain Sense of MATURITY we need at his position if we are going to win a couple tourney games this year.

I’ll be rooting hard for AJ today as well as the rest of the team - he made some strides at Marquette game.

 

[navery12]

Sometimes can be too high of a standard and I’m certainly guilty of being too harsh.

Well we can finally agree on something!

 

[Umami Zen]

Might be scheme.. Might be by design.. Might be matchups.. But IMO.. Andre has been playing with more discipline with the ball in his hands.. He's getting it into Newton's hands quicker in recent games.. So that he(TN) can set up offense quicker in shot clock if the up court pass is not there to a shooter.

When he gets a defensive board and immediately takes ball up court in transition.. He is a weapon that Danny doesn't want to limit. Have noticed he is also getting ball up-court to Hawk --in his spots-- quicker and decisively.

He is who he is.. Too valuable on the other side of the ball/boards/50-50 balls/deflections/D to have on bench for extended periods of time. At his best.. A tremendously disruptive player

 

[slepers]

He would be riding the bench for some of the lapses he had once again tonight. The technical, the unnecessary charge, the wild shots….

I don’t put this on Jackson but rather Hurley. He is going to have to hold him more accountable because we will not be able to compete at the highest levels with these types of plays.

This is more about Hurley than Jackson - he needs to be a bit more like Jim Calhoun and holding players accountable during the game when they put themselves before the team.

Let’s get this back on track.......he’d be over 30 and ineligible!

 

[Rico444]

That’s a good point too. Since he can’t shoot his passing is held to a higher standard. Tough but true. Sometimes can be too high of a standard and I’m certainly guilty of being too harsh.

I get that, but the problem is you can apply that thinking to every player on the team. Name me one player that doesn't have flaws. Are we limiting everyone on the roster to 23-25 minutes? Hawkins sometimes misses 3s at inopportune times, let's limit his minutes. Sanogo sometimes forces up shots, let's limit his minutes. Clingan fouls too much, let's limit his minutes.

Andre is one of our best players even with his flaws, so to me I don't think him averaging 1.9 TOs per game is enough of a reason to cut his minutes.

 

[PAHusky]

Well we can finally agree on something!

Ha yes maybe now we can call a detente and you don’t have to waste your time downvoting every post that criticizes Jackson in any way

 

[PAHusky]

I get that, but the problem is you can apply that thinking to every player on the team. Name me one player that doesn't have flaws. Are we limiting everyone on the roster to 23-25 minutes? Hawkins sometimes misses 3s at inopportune times, let's limit his minutes. Sanogo sometimes forces up shots, let's limit his minutes. Clingan fouls too much, let's limit his minutes.

Andre is one of our best players even with his flaws, so to me I don't think him averaging 1.9 TOs per game is enough of a reason to cut his minutes.

It’s not the same. He’s a wing who doesn’t score. If he doesn’t score, his passing, rebounding and defense have to be incredible. Usually they are. When they’re not, it makes no sense to play him.

 

[Rico444]

It’s not the same. He’s a wing who doesn’t score. If he doesn’t score, his passing, rebounding and defense have to be incredible. Usually they are. When they’re not, it makes no sense to play him.

They don't all have to be "incredible" for him to provide value. If Andre holds the other team's best offensive player to 10 points under his average that's not good enough to mitigate for his lack of scoring? You're saying if he only had a "good" rebounding and A/TO night that he wouldn't be providing value to the team? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[navery12]

Ha yes maybe now we can call a detente and you don’t have to waste your time downvoting every post that criticizes Jackson in any way

Hard pass. If you continue to post nonsense that's easily disproven with stats you'll get a downvote

 

[PAHusky]

They don't all have to be "incredible" for him to provide value. If Andre holds the other team's best offensive player to 10 points under his average that's not good enough to mitigate for his lack of scoring? You're saying if he only had a "good" rebounding and A/TO night that he wouldn't be providing value to the team? That doesn't make sense to me.

Holding the guy to ten points under his average is incredible, so yes then he’s providing value the team. I think Jackson is a huge asset and should play a lot. I just don’t know if it would be better for him to come off the bench or have a shorter leash in order to better highlight his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.

 

[mauconnfan]

Let’s hope he’s on the road to recovery as the last couple games are tracking in a positive direction no doubt. His defense in the GTown game was good as was everyone else. And everyone’s defense in the first half the other night was really good best since the holiday tourney. His offense is better and I mean that by not making as many head scratchers. But people need to realize the other team could care less whether he gets 7-9 points because they’re happier being able to slough off and double down on Sanogo or Hawk coming off a pick. Our offense needs him to make the fewest errors possible due to the fact they’re playing 4 on 5.

Love the direction of his play as of late hope it continues.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

It’s not the same. He’s a wing who doesn’t score. If he doesn’t score, his passing, rebounding and defense have to be incredible. Usually they are. When they’re not, it makes no sense to play him.

This somehow conjures two things from other times & parts of my life.

Said by wise client and agency executives: "Only 50% of advertising works, but it's impossible to know which 50%, so we continue to produce and place 100%."

With a sweet smile that registered appreciation for my compliment during the early falling-in-love days, an old girlfriend responded when I said how nice/wonderful/whatever she was: "Except when I'm not."

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Why is this thread here? So derogatory towards one of our players.

More often than not, threads like this are kind of a gumbo composed of ingredients from the sketchier recesses of the refrigerator: hot takes, dead horse beating, trolling, fixed agendas, emotional immaturity, "I do me" push backs, attempts to control the uncontrollable, turf battles, rabbit holes, digressions, macho posturing...many resting on an "I got a right to be brutally honest" posture that elevates the brutal over the honest. In other words, these are not the freshest or healthiest building blocks.

It's easy to forget that such bickering adds very little of positive value, and arguably weakens our fan unity, which in turn dilutes the positive boost that fan support can provide.

We dislike such risky and compromising behaviors when we see with or between the coaches and players. Regularly on The Boneyard, we appear to hold ourselves to lesser standards...and many defend this.

I offer my own post as an example of trying to control the uncontrollable.