How to fix the Big East

[shizzle787]

This is by far the worst start OOC against the P4 that the Big East has had in a while (3-9).

Only two teams look like locks, though I believe two more will make it in the field somehow.

This is a program by program look at what needs to be fixed to improve the league.



Will probably be fine for the foreseeable future:

UConn: nothing. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing. We are spending near full revenue sharing.

St. John's: needs to have a post-Pitino strategy. As long as Pitino is there, they will be good. They need to commit to spending at similar levels as UConn on revenue sharing and commit to a big hire after Pitino.

Villanova: now have the right coach. They need to commit to spending on revenue sharing. Keep Wright close to the program.

Georgetown: also now have the right coach. Also need to commit to spending on revenue sharing.

Marquette: need to have a sit down with Shaka about his recruiting philosophy. If he doesn't take transfers this upcoming offseason, a change is likely to be made.

Providence: needs a new coach. Kim English is not the guy. He was average at George Mason. The school is willing to spend and has the right fanbase. They just need to hire a better coach. For what it is worth, English is a good recruiter. If he can recruit, so can a lot of other guys.

Creighton: needs the next guy to be good. They have a good fanbase and solid revenue sharing. Wait and see on them.


Could be a problem in the future:

Xavier: need to commit to spending more on revenue sharing. Pitino Jr. is a solid coach, but he needs money to build a roster. The school has a solid fanbase and history.

Seton Hall: have started to commit more money this year. They need more money. I don't think Shaheen is the right guy either.


Not sure what they are doing here:

Butler: arguably the Big East's greatest blunder. Great program in the 2000s and 2010s. Completely fallen apart since COVID. Matta has gotta go and they need to spend a lot more money.

DePaul: systemic issues. Small fanbase. Don't spend enough on revenue sharing. Even if Holtmann is successful, he won't stay long. Stepping stone job.


All in all, I am way more positive on the future of the Big East (if we are in it) than most. I believe the East Coast schools (sans Seton Hall) will all step up financially and have solid coaching. Marquette and Creighton will probably be fine as well.

Xavier and Seton Hall both have decent fan support and history so as long as they have the right coach and commit to spending about $5 million per year on revenue sharing, there is a chance both will get back to where they are supposed to be.

I'm not sure Butler has the pockets to compete at this level anymore, and I don't know if they can even upgrade from Matta.

DePaul will stink for eternity.

 

[B1GEast]

You can't fix it because the power 4 use money from the revenue generated by their football programs to fund their NIL.

As long as they have a financial advantage the BE will always be top heavy.

 

[shizzle787]

You can't fix it because the power 4 use money from the revenue generated by their football programs to fund their NIL.

As long as they have a financial advantage the BE will always be top heavy.

The rules changed: they can only spend about $21 million total on revenue sharing for both football and basketball. The average P4 school is expected to spend $4-5 million on revenue sharing for basketball. The Big East is expected to average $6 million per school. Of course, some schools will still have bag men.

 

[shizzle787]

You can't fix it because the power 4 use money from the revenue generated by their football programs to fund their NIL.

As long as they have a financial advantage the BE will always be top heavy.

To me, this is a Butler and Seton Hall issue. If those two got back to what they were in the 2010s, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[RuffRuff]

What about hiring a new commissioner?


Personally, it feels like it's a mulit-faceted issue, some of what that is not fixable. Best bet, a ticket out at some point soon.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

You can't fix it because the power 4 use money from the revenue generated by their football programs to fund their NIL.

As long as they have a financial advantage the BE will always be top heavy.

Do you realize how expensive it is to be competitive in football? Have you noticed that half the P4 isn't trying anymore?

 

[superjohn]

What about hiring a new commissioner?


Personally, it feels like it's a mulit-faceted issue, some of what that is not fixable. Best bet, a ticket out at some point soon.

That's the biggest thing that needs to happen. It's crazy she's still the commissioner, she doesn't do anything.

 

[jleves]

Revenue sharing and NIL are two different things. Sure the Big East can spend more revenue sharing on basketball, but NIL takes everything in a different direction.

Big schools with a lot of wealthy alums or ties to corporations will use NIL to make Big East revenue sharing almost useless. You don't get a Dybantsa with revenue sharing - you get him with NIL.

The only use of revenue sharing is building out the mid to end of your roster for top teams. If most of the Big East has to use revenue sharing to build the top end of their roster, they are sunk.

Get into one of the top 2 or 3 conferences or you're done in the near future.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This is by far the worst start OOC against the P4 that the Big East has had in a while (3-9).

Only two teams look like locks, though I believe two more will make it in the field somehow.

This is a program by program look at what needs to be fixed to improve the league.



Will probably be fine for the foreseeable future:

UConn: nothing. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing. We are spending near full revenue sharing.

St. John's: needs to have a post-Pitino strategy. As long as Pitino is there, they will be good. They need to commit to spending at similar levels as UConn on revenue sharing and commit to a big hire after Pitino.

Villanova: now have the right coach. They need to commit to spending on revenue sharing. Keep Wright close to the program.

Georgetown: also now have the right coach. Also need to commit to spending on revenue sharing.

Marquette: need to have a sit down with Shaka about his recruiting philosophy. If he doesn't take transfers this upcoming offseason, a change is likely to be made.

Providence: needs a new coach. Kim English is not the guy. He was average at George Mason. The school is willing to spend and has the right fanbase. They just need to hire a better coach. For what it is worth, English is a good recruiter. If he can recruit, so can a lot of other guys.

Creighton: needs the next guy to be good. They have a good fanbase and solid revenue sharing. Wait and see on them.


Could be a problem in the future:

Xavier: need to commit to spending more on revenue sharing. Pitino Jr. is a solid coach, but he needs money to build a roster. The school has a solid fanbase and history.

Seton Hall: have started to commit more money this year. They need more money. I don't think Shaheen is the right guy either.


Not sure what they are doing here:

Butler: arguably the Big East's greatest blunder. Great program in the 2000s and 2010s. Completely fallen apart since COVID. Matta has gotta go and they need to spend a lot more money.

DePaul: systemic issues. Small fanbase. Don't spend enough on revenue sharing. Even if Holtmann is successful, he won't stay long. Stepping stone job.


All in all, I am way more positive on the future of the Big East (if we are in it) than most. I believe the East Coast schools (sans Seton Hall) will all step up financially and have solid coaching. Marquette and Creighton will probably be fine as well.

Xavier and Seton Hall both have decent fan support and history so as long as they have the right coach and commit to spending about $5 million per year on revenue sharing, there is a chance both will get back to where they are supposed to be.

I'm not sure Butler has the pockets to compete at this level anymore, and I don't know if they can even upgrade from Matta.

DePaul will stink for eternity.

I agree that the conference is off to a bad start, but it is a little early to draw any sweeping conclusions. Butler and Villanova look better this year. Marquette and Creighton look way down. There are a lot of games left, and then we will see.

 

[auror]

Do you realize how expensive it is to be competitive in football? Have you noticed that half the P4 isn't trying anymore?

They still get the network checks which trickles down effortlessly into basketball. You don't have to win, just be in the conference.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Revenue sharing and NIL are two different things. Sure the Big East can spend more revenue sharing on basketball, but NIL takes everything in a different direction.

Big schools with a lot of wealthy alums or ties to corporations will use NIL to make Big East revenue sharing almost useless. You don't get a Dybantsa with revenue sharing - you get him with NIL.

The only use of revenue sharing is building out the mid to end of your roster for top teams. If most of the Big East has to use revenue sharing to build the top end of their roster, they are sunk.

Get into one of the top 2 or 3 conferences or you're done in the near future.

Who is going to be your new team? Alabama?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

They still get the network checks which trickles down effortlessly into basketball. You don't have to win, just be in the conference.

They do, but the cost of a remotely competitive football program makes that sport a money loser going forward for all but maybe 20 programs.

 

[auror]

They do, but the cost of a remotely competitive football program makes that sport a money loser going forward for all but maybe 20 programs.

Right. It's a money maker for anyone in the Big Ten and SEC. Which is the problem. Those leagues now kick the Big East's butt and the Big 12 and ACC have been mostly very good at basketball the last 20 years, so the Big East is now somewhere in that 3-5th range for conference on a year-by-year basis and more likely than not to be 5th.

 

[shizzle787]

Revenue sharing and NIL are two different things. Sure the Big East can spend more revenue sharing on basketball, but NIL takes everything in a different direction.

Big schools with a lot of wealthy alums or ties to corporations will use NIL to make Big East revenue sharing almost useless. You don't get a Dybantsa with revenue sharing - you get him with NIL.

The only use of revenue sharing is building out the mid to end of your roster for top teams. If most of the Big East has to use revenue sharing to build the top end of their roster, they are sunk.

Get into one of the top 2 or 3 conferences or you're done in the near future.

What you're describing is 100% against the rules going forward. This was the last year of unfettered NIL. That's over starting next year.

 

[shizzle787]

Right. It's a money maker for anyone in the Big Ten and SEC. Which is the problem. Those leagues now kick the Big East's butt and the Big 12 and ACC have been mostly very good at basketball the last 20 years, so the Big East is now somewhere in that 3-5th range for conference on a year-by-year basis and more likely than not to be 5th.

To be fair, I believe it is just a down year, not a trend. We got 5 teams in last year. I took a gander on Wikipedia and looked at all Big East tournament results and bids since 1980. The league by and large is a paper tiger in March outside of its best team. That didn't really change post-2013. To me the issue right now revolves around Butler and Seton Hall. They need to turn it around.

DePaul has stunk for 20 years. I don't expect anything from them.

Seton Hall stunk for a long time too but has been good in the reconfigured league. They need to up their spending by 50% to get back into the fold.

Butler is the one that surprises me. Matta has coached there before. To me, it comes down to money for them. They also need to up their spending significantly. They need to hit the phones and business leaders in Indy hard for donations. They made the tournament seven times between 2010 and 2018. They have fallen off.

Xavier got screwed by Miller leaving the way he did. He left Pitino no time to create a roster.

I am a little concerned about Creighton, but not for financial reasons. I don't know if Alan Huss is the answer. To me, they sink or swim with him.

The other six: UConn, St. John's, Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, and Providence all have the financial backing. Providence needs a new coach, and Shaka needs to adapt or die.


I still think the league can turn it around again this year. UConn and St. John's will be nasty. Georgetown is a pleasant surprise. I would not judge Creighton off of one game (especially considering the opponent and location). Villanova looks like they are one year away, but you never know.

Best case scenario is five bids: UConn, St. John's, Georgetown, Creighton, and Villanova.

 

[jleves]

What you're describing is 100% against the rules going forward. This was the last year of unfettered NIL. That's over starting next year.

Umm, no. There is still NIL - the contracts just have to be "appropriate" to value. If everyone is getting x for doing y, it becomes appropriate to value. The big payouts are not going away.

 

[shizzle787]

Yeah, he is wrong in the OP to lump Xavier and Seton Hall together. "Xavier and Seton Hall both have decent fan support and history." Seton Hall is nowhere near the same tier of fan support and history as Xavier.

Xavier has 9 Sweet 16s and 19 tournament appearances since 85. Sells out Cintas at 10k per night and would likely put a few more thousand each game if they could.

Outside of Willard's 4 straight tournament appearances from 16-19, Seton Hall has 4 other tournament appearances in the last 30 years. Another way is to say they've made 25% of NCAA tournaments over an extended period and that rate is going down. They draw 7k a night in a building that seats 16k.

7k a night isn't bad for a team that won six games last year.

 

[jleves]

Who is going to be your new team? Alabama?

wow - that's a weird take. I'm all UConn all the time and hope they get a seat at the table.

 

[shizzle787]

Umm, no. There is still NIL - the contracts just have to be "appropriate" to value. If everyone is getting x for doing y, it becomes appropriate to value. The big payouts are not going away.

Legitimate NIL yes. Not rich booster pays for player through third party business. Deloitte is rejecting those deals. Not many kids qualify for legitimate NIL of more than a couple hundred thousand (Nike, Under Armor). Less than 100 nationally.

Some kids get legitimate deals through insurance companies and law firms but the SEC and Big Ten don't have an advantage there as large law firms are everywhere.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Right. It's a money maker for anyone in the Big Ten and SEC. Which is the problem. Those leagues now kick the Big East's butt and the Big 12 and ACC have been mostly very good at basketball the last 20 years, so the Big East is now somewhere in that 3-5th range for conference on a year-by-year basis and more likely than not to be 5th.

When you throw in coaches, facilities, and scholarships on top of player salaries, football is a big problem for even the Big 10 and SEC middle of the pack and bottom schools. Some schools seem to want to fund it, but it honestly doesn't make any sense, and is not just the unlimited money machine that many on this board act like it is.

Notre Dame/Pitt yesterday is what happens when a school that is really serious about football plays a school that is trying to just be competitive. Pitt got annihilated from the start, and they are probably spending $20MM+ a year on that roster.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

To be fair, I believe it is just a down year, not a trend. We got 5 teams in last year. I took a gander on Wikipedia and looked at all Big East tournament results and bids since 1980. The league by and large is a paper tiger in March outside of its best team. That didn't really change post-2013. To me the issue right now revolves around Butler and Seton Hall. They need to turn it around.

DePaul has stunk for 20 years. I don't expect anything from them.

Seton Hall stunk for a long time too but has been good in the reconfigured league. They need to up their spending by 50% to get back into the fold.

Butler is the one that surprises me. Matta has coached there before. To me, it comes down to money for them. They also need to up their spending significantly. They need to hit the phones and business leaders in Indy hard for donations. They made the tournament seven times between 2010 and 2018. They have fallen off.

Xavier got screwed by Miller leaving the way he did. He left Pitino no time to create a roster.

I am a little concerned about Creighton, but not for financial reasons. I don't know if Alan Huss is the answer. To me, they sink or swim with him.

The other six: UConn, St. John's, Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, and Providence all have the financial backing. Providence needs a new coach, and Shaka needs to adapt or die.


I still think the league can turn it around again this year. UConn and St. John's will be nasty. Georgetown is a pleasant surprise. I would not judge Creighton off of one game (especially considering the opponent and location). Villanova looks like they are one year away, but you never know.

Best case scenario is five bids: UConn, St. John's, Georgetown, Creighton, and Villanova.

The big city teams have a decent shot of attracting meaningful NIL and financial support.

SEC is 6-10 vs. the P4 + Big East. Let's see where the leagues are at the end of the month before drawing any conclusions.

 

[superjohn]

To be fair, I believe it is just a down year, not a trend. We got 5 teams in last year. I took a gander on Wikipedia and looked at all Big East tournament results and bids since 1980. The league by and large is a paper tiger in March outside of its best team. That didn't really change post-2013. To me the issue right now revolves around Butler and Seton Hall. They need to turn it around.

DePaul has stunk for 20 years. I don't expect anything from them.

Seton Hall stunk for a long time too but has been good in the reconfigured league. They need to up their spending by 50% to get back into the fold.

Butler is the one that surprises me. Matta has coached there before. To me, it comes down to money for them. They also need to up their spending significantly. They need to hit the phones and business leaders in Indy hard for donations. They made the tournament seven times between 2010 and 2018. They have fallen off.

Xavier got screwed by Miller leaving the way he did. He left Pitino no time to create a roster.

I am a little concerned about Creighton, but not for financial reasons. I don't know if Alan Huss is the answer. To me, they sink or swim with him.

The other six: UConn, St. John's, Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, and Providence all have the financial backing. Providence needs a new coach, and Shaka needs to adapt or die.


I still think the league can turn it around again this year. UConn and St. John's will be nasty. Georgetown is a pleasant surprise. I would not judge Creighton off of one game (especially considering the opponent and location). Villanova looks like they are one year away, but you never know.

Best case scenario is five bids: UConn, St. John's, Georgetown, Creighton, and Villanova.

The Big East is a paper tiger in March outside of it's best team? What?

 

[shizzle787]

The Big East is a paper tiger in March outside of it's best team? What?

Case in point: 2011. We won the tournament. What happened to the other ten teams? Disaster.

 

[superjohn]

Case in point: 2011. We won the tournament. What happened to the other ten teams? Disaster.

Big East won 11 national championships since 1980.

 

[shizzle787]

Big East won 11 national championships since 1980.

Again, best team. Teams #2-5 rarely made the Elite 8, many cases didn't even reach the second weekend.