Holly Breaking the Wrong Records

[Puppy Love]

Here’s a question for the BY to ponder. Has there ever been a powerhouse WBB program that has remained a powerhouse WBB program after the departure of a legendary and/or successful coach? I can’t really think of one off hand, which leads to a somewhat ominous conclusion for our own beloved team.

LA Tech under Sonja Hogg and then Leon Barmore, although it needs a footnote for AIAW.

 

[oldude]

There are so many negative threads on VolNation, it’s difficult to keep up with all of them. But there is one derogatory reference that I found particularly interesting. There used to be a core of loyal supporters of HW & the LV’s that would go back and forth with the Haters on VolNation. In the present climate, HW’s supporters have pretty much vanished on the Board.

While HW’s supporters are gone, they are not forgotten. The Haters have taken to referring to them as “Blue Hairs”, presumably in reference to their age. The anti-HW crowd blames the Blue Hairs for keeping HW. Some go as far as identifying Fulmer as their leader.

Considering the average age of many of us here on the BY, I guess we could also merit that particular perjoritive, although I prefer the more dignified “Silver Hairs”, or in my particular case, “Coiffure Challenged.”

 

[bballnut90]

Just watched the UT-Bama game last night....that was honestly the worst performance I think I've ever seen from Tennessee. It was comical how bad it was. I'm not going to dive into it and tear Holly apart (like I've done the past few games), but it's more of the same. Horrible defense, zero execution offensively and in the 4th it was truly awful on both ends. Holly never did anything to try and turn the tide. If they keep losing the AD will be forced to can her. Even if Holly stays, I can't imagine that players like Westbrook, Davis or Green stick around to continue playing for Tennessee next year. All have huge potential and none of them will develop at Tennessee under Holly.

I will give props to Alabama though, they did play really well and completely dominated Tennessee on both ends.

 

[DefenseBB]

If they don't win this game I'm thinking that a full 50% of the Vol Nation faithful will have to be put on suicide watch.

Based on the vitriol already, I am not thinking "suicide watch" as much as "police protection" for both Fulmer and Warlick...

 

[Beemer]

I wrote a critique of HW a few years ago and I remember a really frightening interview she gave her first year in which she said: My plan is to do exactly what Pat did, I watched her for so many years and that is exactly what I am going to do [because I have not one original thought in my head.] So here is a recap:

1. In game I get the sense she doesn't actually understand what is happening on the court beyond when the ball goes in the basket at either end. She will invariably wait until a player starts to heat up for her to be substituted out of the game, and will stick with a player until she starts to heat up.

2. She has embraced the tried and true offensive philosophy of chuck it and rebound like crazy. (This was to a large degree Pat's offensive philosophy as well.) I really wonder if they practice any type of offensive plays beyond perhaps on ball screens. They never seem to run anything and their players have no idea of what a good (or bad) shot looks like except again based on if the ball somehow goes through the hoop. And absolutely no sense of how to attack a zone.

3. The extent of defensive philosophy seems to be 'getting down in a stance' and showing 'intensity'. Weak side help, different specific plans to deal with defending screens, any type of team defense seems to be a mystery to her and her teams.

4. Individual teaching of skills let alone team skills seems to be anathema - certainly a lot of promising talent has regressed seriously during four years at TN. A few players had enough skill coming in that four years of stagnation still has allowed them to recharge as pros, but ...

So back to that interview and what has followed - I imagine Holly has a book she compiled from Pat's last few years of coaching that outlines exactly what each practice Pat ran during the 'average season' contained, and sticks to it religiously - if this is day 12 of preseason, we spend 10 minutes in warm ups, followed by 20 minutes of practicing zone defense, followed by 20 minutes of 5 on five, followed by ... And that is exactly what happens whether they have actually accomplished anything during any of the sessions. And they rarely accomplish anything because HW doesn't actually understand what is supposed to be taught, or learned, or what is actually happening on the floor during those sessions (beyond whether the ball goes through the hoop.)

I do enjoy the angst overwhelming Volland, but do feel sorry for some of the players - Graves a few years ago had a brilliant run on one of the USA basketball teams and I really liked what I saw, but her last years at TN were terrible and someone who should have been a solid pro, lasted two disappointing years on the bench.

Great post and I echo your comments on Graves- I was so impressed with her during her freshman year and could not understand (at the time) the lack of improvement over the next 3 seasons.

 

[jonson]

Oregon State was an even worse disaster than what is going on at UT (albeit, Oregon State did not have the history of UT). OSU Athletic Director went out and hired a successful D3 head coach who won the ncaa D3 championship. When Scott Rueck took over the program, there were not even 5 players on the roster. Rueck held try-outs 9 years ago just to field a team. If Vol Nation wants a different result, it can be achieved. Somebody in that Athletic Department needs to do their job, or, they should be fired. It is just that simple.

Oregon was a dumpster fire as well for a decade+ before Graves arrived, although I have to say that, as bad as it was in Eugene--and it was very bad--the situation at OSU when Rueck arrived was well beyond that. What Ruck has done is nothing short of amazing; Graves too, imo (Kelly, not Bashara ), but the hill was not nearly as steep. Good coaching obviously matters--a lot.

 

[Ozimoto]

They are eating their own over on VolNation. The "Blue Hairs" thread is just insane.

 

[UcMiami]

I know this may not be a popular sentiment, but i do NOT feel sorry for the players. They CHOSE to go to Tennessee. Any of them can watch Tenn on TV all the time and see what a train wreck the offense and defense is (aside from "play intense pressure defense"). A kid who wants to go there and be a star or savior - that's on her. Holly has shown herself to be a great recruiter and from what I understand, recruits not only the players, but their family, and preaches about the Tennessee family. It's a winning recipe for recruiting, but kids need to look deeper.

Yeah, I know. It is amazing how clueless recruits are about a) themselves, b) the coaches/teams they want to play for. Still, a few of the TN players strike me as very talented and very team oriented and you can just see the suffering - why they do not just transfer is a real mystery.

(By the way, a few years ago the VolLand all thought Holly was a terrible recruiter when they had a zero recruit year. That changed the next year when they brought in a new assistant coach Sharrona Reaves specifically to revive recruiting.)

 

[nwhoopfan]

Here’s a question for the BY to ponder. Has there ever been a powerhouse WBB program that has remained a powerhouse WBB program after the departure of a legendary and/or successful coach? I can’t really think of one off hand, which leads to a somewhat ominous conclusion for our own beloved team.

An interesting question. There aren't many test cases. There is simply a much shorter history of women's NCAA basketball than men's. I think with Tennessee we can answer no. Geno and Tara have been at their respective schools for a long time, it remains to be seen what happens when they retire. Schools like ODU and Louisiana Tech faded after early success. Texas and USC were powers in the early years of NCAA, that didn't last. Maybe a few others. Georgia?

I think Stanford may be in a better position to survive the passing of the torch after a legend retires than most schools. It's a highly attractive school for both coaches and players. It's apples and oranges perhaps, but their women's volleyball program has thrived for several decades. 3 different coaches have won a NCAA National Championship there starting in '92, and 2 of those coaches won multiple Titles (4 and 3 respectively). The third coach has only been there 2 years and already got another banner to hang for the school.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Gosh - I hate to lay on the players themselves - Lord knows the Volnation posters are hard enough on them. But once Alabama started pulling away in the 4th, the Lady Vols clearly gave up. I've never seen as many entry passes into the paint where the defenders barely took a step towards the shooter. It really was a pathetic ending - I really believe the team embarrassed themselves at the end.

So I'm somewhat amending what I wrote about how sad it is how Volnation posters are so critical of the team. In this instance, I think it's justified.

Cabbie Love your post but I disagree.... I have always believed that the coach is in total control of the program.... and he/she dictates everything that goes on in that program in practice and in games....

In your scenario, when the team gave up ... or it appeared so.... those players should have been given an express ticket to the end of the bench.... and it wouldn't matter who replaced them... the important thing would have been to send a message that the coaching does not tolerate such passive play.... that is what Pat would have done... but rarely do i see holly disciplining players.... in my mind it is one of the reasons the players feel they rule the show and can walk all over her

 

[pacific 44]

Lets hope that Holly turns this thing around just enough to remain in her position as head coach. Worst case scenario to me is that someone competent comes in and rights this sinking ship.Go Holly,get back to the the middle of the pack in the less e c and then win one game in both the sec tourny and the ncaa.

 

[nwhoopfan]

To add on to Bayareahusky, it is the coach's responsibility to establish the culture of a program. If there is a problem with the culture, that's on the coach. If the press conferences sound like a broken record--"we didn't play hard" and "I don't know what the problem is"--again that's on the coach. The players have changed, the problems continue. There is only one constant.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I think people are getting a bit carried away. Let's not overreact, people!

Here are my top 10 reasons why Holly should remain as head coach:

1. She was handpicked by Pat Summitt herself to lead this program!
2. She's a really nice person!
3. She's an outstanding recruiter!
4. She wears folksy collared shirts!
5. She was an All-American point guard at Tennessee!
6. She's a LVFL!
7. Her team is really young. They're on the verge of turning the corner, I can feel it!
8. Jordan Horston is coming to Knoxville next year. She'll be the savior!
9. She's really good at the wolf whistle!
10. She's not afraid to admit when she doesn't know something!

thanks for the LOL

There are so many negative threads on VolNation, it’s difficult to keep up with all of them. But there is one derogatory reference that I found particularly interesting. There used to be a core of loyal supporters of HW & the LV’s that would go back and forth with the Haters on VolNation. In the present climate, HW’s supporters have pretty much vanished on the Board.

While HW’s supporters are gone, they are not forgotten. The Haters have taken to referring to them as “Blue Hairs”, presumably in reference to their age. The anti-HW crowd blames the Blue Hairs for keeping HW. Some go as far as identifying Fulmer as their leader.

Considering the average age of many of us here on the BY, I guess we could also merit that particular perjoritive, although I prefer the more dignified “Silver Hairs”, or in my particular case, “Coiffure Challenged.”

so many negative comments now but it should also be noted that Holly's shortcomings have been there from the start yet posters have turned away from en masse only in the last couple of years.....

3 or 4 years into her tenure you couldn't say a bad word about her for fear of being slapped down by Vol Nation

I am into loyalty, but you also have to see the forest from the trees

 

[ctfjr]

Please explain how two Coaches go Head to Head 22 times and one Coach win 13 times, one Coach beat the other Coach 4-0 in Championship games ,but because the opposing Coach have a better over-all record that makes them the GOAT? How many people are saying Dean Smith was better than John Wooden because he had a better over-all record. How many Women Coaches have a 111 win streak? How many Women Coaches have won 11 Championships ?Let's be Real.

Whoa there - don't get thy panties in an uproar. . . The only people that say that have orange on and have had reality lobotomies.

 

[ochoopsfan]

Just curious, what are the odds that next year, when UConn and UT meet for the first time in eons will the head coaches be:
Geno v Holly
Geno v ?
? v Holly
? v ?

 

[JordyG]

If they don't win this game I'm thinking that a full 50% of the Vol Nation faithful will have to be put on suicide watch.

You must be talking about the other 50%.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Just curious, what are the odds that next year, when UConn and UT meet for the first time in eons will the head coaches be:
Geno v Holly
Geno v ?
? v Holly

Will both teams be ranked in the top 10 at the time? Schedules obviously haven't been released yet. I would guess this would be prior to conference games starting, rather than UConn stepping out of conference in January or February like they routinely do. In other words early enough in the season before Tennessee starts dropping in the polls.

 

[j66kicker]

Will both teams be ranked in the top 10 at the time? Schedules obviously haven't been released yet. I would guess this would be prior to conference games starting, rather than UConn stepping out of conference in January or February like they routinely do. In other words early enough in the season before Tennessee starts dropping in the polls.

Jan 23, 2020

 

[ed4ourgirls]

Next year, if Tennessee, with Holly at the helm, beats a weaker than usual UConn team,
there are going to be a lot of exploding heads here on the Boneyard!

 

[nwhoopfan]

Jan 23, 2020

That might be close. Tennessee could still be clinging to top 10 based on ranked too high to start and easy OOC.

 

[Ozimoto]

I think the demise of ODU and LaTech as power houses can be attributed to the transition of women's basketball from the AIAW to the NCAA and Title IX. Once NCAA institutions became involved in women's sports as a result of Title IX schools like ODU, LaTech and Immaculata simply didn't have the financial resources to keep up.

 

[EricLA]

Cabbie Love your post but I disagree.... I have always believed that the coach is in total control of the program.... and he/she dictates everything that goes on in that program in practice and in games....

In your scenario, when the team gave up ... or it appeared so.... those players should have been given an express ticket to the end of the bench.... and it wouldn't matter who replaced them... the important thing would have been to send a message that the coaching does not tolerate such passive play.... that is what Pat would have done... but rarely do i see holly disciplining players.... in my mind it is one of the reasons the players feel they rule the show and can walk all over her

Moreover, not only does she have little control over the team when it comes to effort, she also seems to not be a disciplinarian of any kind. She missed an opportunity with Rae Burrell in the 4th quarter. Rae was obviusly very frustrated with the game and she committed an overly hard foul on a 'bama player (could have gotten a T), then did a stare down (could have gotten another T).

It was a situation where the Bama player did nothing to provoke (unlike Danger's response to the Tulane kid clapping at her). Holly should have IMMEDIATELY taken Burrell out, sat her ass on the bench, and taught her a lesson about sportsmanship.

I'm NOT saying Rae is a bad kid or anything like that, but when a player behaves that way for an unprovoked reason, she needs to be benched and talked to. Instead Holly just ignored the entire situation and let her play on.

I've never seen a LVol practice, but if I had to guess, I would say there is a lot of hand clapping by the coaches, along with cajoling, yelling TO them, etc etc. Gone are the days where Pat would boot players out of practice for doing something she didn't like, or make them launder their own uniforms, or anything like that.

Great coaches are not only great teachers, but also have fires in their belly's, and when players mess up, there are consequences. Has Holly EVER yanked a player off the court and gotten in her face? We've seen Geno, Tara, Muffet, Jeff, and many other top coaches do that with players. What is Holly afraid of??

 

[bballnut90]

An interesting question. There aren't many test cases. There is simply a much shorter history of women's NCAA basketball than men's. I think with Tennessee we can answer no. Geno and Tara have been at their respective schools for a long time, it remains to be seen what happens when they retire. Schools like ODU and Louisiana Tech faded after early success. Texas and USC were powers in the early years of NCAA, that didn't last. Maybe a few others. Georgia?

I think Stanford may be in a better position to survive the passing of the torch after a legend retires than most schools. It's a highly attractive school for both coaches and players. It's apples and oranges perhaps, but their women's volleyball program has thrived for several decades. 3 different coaches have won a NCAA National Championship there starting in '92, and 2 of those coaches won multiple Titles (4 and 3 respectively). The third coach has only been there 2 years and already got another banner to hang for the school.

Can also add the likes of Duke, Penn State, Texas Tech, Auburn, Vanderbilt, Western Kentucky and Virginia to that list even if their program wasn't a powerhouse.

The only school I can think of who maintained high success after their legend left is LSU when they went on their 5 year Final Four run post Gunter, albeit Gunter never made a Final Four as a coach so not sure this one even qualifies. They had 3 different coaches take Gunter's players to the Final Four and then havent been very good since.

Most of the top programs were fading under their long time coach though and were pretty far removed from being a title threat. This was the case for Penn State, Virginia, ODU, USC, Texas, Texas Tech, and Georgia. La Tech was trending downward too, same with Tennessee to a lesser extent. Duke was at its peak when GG left.

Im not sure what happens to Stanford once Tara leaves. I dont see a big parallel to the volleyball program in that regard. California is a volleyball hot bed and most players come from well off families since all recruiting is done through club volleyball which costs an arm and a leg. People have mentioned Tara can only recruit maybe 5-10 players in the country for basketball due to academic qualifications, but in volleyball Stanford typically has its pick of the litter.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Moreover, not only does she have little control over the team when it comes to effort, she also seems to not be a disciplinarian of any kind. She missed an opportunity with Rae Burrell in the 4th quarter. Rae was obviusly very frustrated with the game and she committed an overly hard foul on a 'bama player (could have gotten a T), then did a stare down (could have gotten another T).

It was a situation where the Bama player did nothing to provoke (unlike Danger's response to the Tulane kid clapping at her). Holly should have IMMEDIATELY taken Burrell out, sat her ass on the bench, and taught her a lesson about sportsmanship.

I'm NOT saying Rae is a bad kid or anything like that, but when a player behaves that way for an unprovoked reason, she needs to be benched and talked to. Instead Holly just ignored the entire situation and let her play on.

I've never seen a LVol practice, but if I had to guess, I would say there is a lot of hand clapping by the coaches, along with cajoling, yelling TO them, etc etc. Gone are the days where Pat would boot players out of practice for doing something she didn't like, or make them launder their own uniforms, or anything like that.

Great coaches are not only great teachers, but also have fires in their belly's, and when players mess up, there are consequences. Has Holly EVER yanked a player off the court and gotten in her face? We've seen Geno, Tara, Muffet, Jeff, and many other top coaches do that with players. What is Holly afraid of??

Ya ya Eric good post.... I have long wondered why no discipline from Holly.... when the prima donnas like Diamond throw their attitude it has to be met with a pitcher of cold water..... instead Holly thinks well these are my most gifted players.... i would rather do nothing....

and hey where are the assistant coaches in all of this.... i cannot believe one of them cannot come out of his/her shell and make a tangible difference.... I hear great things about Craig and other assistants from Tenn fans... but I do not see a discernible difference of any kind they are making....

And yes you talk about practice.... I always say.... it IS possible to teach the things in practice that many say cannot be taught.... shooting..... shot selection.... layups.... free throws.... limiting turnovers.... and yes even hustle and effort..... there are ways to teach these things.....

I have heard for several years.... "well they wanted it more than we did" or "i cannot teach effort" or last night "our energy has been zapped" ..... first, effort and hustle can be taught through assertiveness training, discipline, and other ways.... and also.... it seems like holly is a strategic one trick pony. ... if her team hustles and "wants it" more than the opposition then that is the recipe for success....

 

[nwhoopfan]

Im not sure what happens to Stanford once Tara leaves. I dont see a big parallel to the volleyball program in that regard. California is a volleyball hot bed and most players come from well off families since all recruiting is done through club volleyball which costs an arm and a leg. People have mentioned Tara can only recruit maybe 5-10 players in the country for basketball due to academic qualifications, but in volleyball Stanford typically has its pick of the litter.

Stanford v-ball recruits from all over the country. Also in the past decade or so there has been a major shift in power from the West Coat to the Big 10 schools and Texas. Stanford comes close to getting their pick of the litter but they have to share w/ Nebraska, Penn St., the Longhorns, maybe a few others from year to year (Florida, Minnesota, Wisconsin).

I think Stanford women's hoops at one point wasn't that far off and could get back to there of getting their pick of the litter of players that qualify to be admitted. 2-3 recruits per year with an occasional spike is probably enough.