Hawkins injury.

[Huskyforlife]

I appreciate that


No problem. Bear with me through this initial stuff, of which you’re probably aware of a decent amount; it’s meant to lead to the answer of your question. The mechanics of brain injury is important to lay out so that my answer makes most sense. *or you can skip ahead to the asterisk

I alluded to the mechanism of arresting/initiating inertia. The inertia of the brain is the core cause of a brain injury. The brain starts moving, and then the head abruptly stops; the brain however keeps moving because it’s essentially floating in liquid, encased by the skull. When the brain keeps moving, it eventually hits the inside of the skull; then often bounces back and hits the other inner surface. This impacts cause respective coup and contre-coup injuries; and, when severe enough, can cause a “stretching” of the nuronal connections about the brain called axonal shear injury, which typically implies a relatively severe injury.

Most concussions are associated with a forward/backward head motion (about the saggital plane) coming to an immediate arrest against an object.

Many concussions are associated with a still head, but an object traveling fast. This is more so related to the blunt force impact.

Plenty of concussions happen from a twisting type of movement with the same inertia principles; think about someone getting caught on the chin in boxing. There’s no actual skull trauma; but the spinning of the head and the strain on neurons deeper in the brain associated with wakefulness are strained, resulting in loss of consciousness.

So, thinking about the classic whiplash injury: someone stopped at a light in a car, hit from behind. The sudden forward movement of the skull is often what causes the most-associated symptom of neck pain (and this is why it’s called whiplash). The head will eventually come to a stop; and if the head was lurched fast/far enough forward, upon stopping and flinging back via a ricochet effect, that then causes the brain to impact the inside of the skull. That is how someone can suffer a brain injury secondary to whiplash.

Now, thinking about how the inertia is arrested. In a whiplash, the head eventually stops; but the deceleration is nothing like impacting a stationary object such as a wall or a windshield or the floor. This is why truly severe brain injuries are not associated primarily with whiplash.

*Now as far as the specific action of falling, landing flat, and possibly getting whiplash without hitting one’s head on the floor. The neck range of motion is such that, when the torso is stationary, all healthy people have range of motion well past the shoulders. In order to somehow not hit one’s head on the floor, someone would in essence have to consciously apply inhuman strength/coordination with maintaining neck flexion, as they’re falling, to fight gravity so as to prevent the head shooting back past the shoulders to hit the floor. That would necessarily stop whatever forces would be required to cause a whiplash injury. Any kind of force that would in another plane of motion against gravity (such as being upright) cause whiplash would more clearly and logically cause someone to hit their head on the floor; and then that trauma becomes a more obvious and more severe mechanism of brain injury. That’s why I would say, to me, it seems nigh impossible for an athlete moving and falling and absorbing impact in the specific (but common) way we saw last night to have a true whiplash injury. They’ll either miraculously prevent the neck extension in the first place, resulting in no head impact and no significant brain injury at all; or they will fail, and the floor will stop their head motion much more suddenly than in a classic whiplash event.

@Doctor Hoop feel free to chime in

Appreciate the time and thought put into this response, thanks.

 

[Giddyup5]

I appreciate that


No problem. Bear with me through this initial stuff, of which you’re probably aware of a decent amount; it’s meant to lead to the answer of your question. The mechanics of brain injury is important to lay out so that my answer makes most sense. *or you can skip ahead to the asterisk

I alluded to the mechanism of arresting/initiating inertia. The inertia of the brain is the core cause of a brain injury. The brain starts moving, and then the head abruptly stops; the brain however keeps moving because it’s essentially floating in liquid, encased by the skull. When the brain keeps moving, it eventually hits the inside of the skull; then often bounces back and hits the other inner surface. This impacts cause respective coup and contre-coup injuries; and, when severe enough, can cause a “stretching” of the nuronal connections about the brain called axonal shear injury, which typically implies a relatively severe injury.

Most concussions are associated with a forward/backward head motion (about the saggital plane) coming to an immediate arrest against an object.

Many concussions are associated with a still head, but an object traveling fast. This is more so related to the blunt force impact.

Plenty of concussions happen from a twisting type of movement with the same inertia principles; think about someone getting caught on the chin in boxing. There’s no actual skull trauma; but the spinning of the head and the strain on neurons deeper in the brain associated with wakefulness are strained, resulting in loss of consciousness.

So, thinking about the classic whiplash injury: someone stopped at a light in a car, hit from behind. The sudden forward movement of the skull is often what causes the most-associated symptom of neck pain (and this is why it’s called whiplash). The head will eventually come to a stop; and if the head was lurched fast/far enough forward, upon stopping and flinging back via a ricochet effect, that then causes the brain to impact the inside of the skull. That is how someone can suffer a brain injury secondary to whiplash.

Now, thinking about how the inertia is arrested. In a whiplash, the head eventually stops; but the deceleration is nothing like impacting a stationary object such as a wall or a windshield or the floor. This is why truly severe brain injuries are not associated primarily with whiplash.

*Now as far as the specific action of falling, landing flat, and possibly getting whiplash without hitting one’s head on the floor. The neck range of motion is such that, when the torso is stationary, all healthy people have range of motion well past the shoulders. In order to somehow not hit one’s head on the floor, someone would in essence have to consciously apply inhuman strength/coordination with maintaining neck flexion, as they’re falling, to fight gravity so as to prevent the head shooting back past the shoulders to hit the floor. That would necessarily stop whatever forces would be required to cause a whiplash injury. Any kind of force that would in another plane of motion against gravity (such as being upright) cause whiplash would more clearly and logically cause someone to hit their head on the floor; and then that trauma becomes a more obvious and more severe mechanism of brain injury. That’s why I would say, to me, it seems nigh impossible for an athlete moving and falling and absorbing impact in the specific (but common) way we saw last night to have a true whiplash injury. They’ll either miraculously prevent the neck extension in the first place, resulting in no head impact and no significant brain injury at all; or they will fail, and the floor will stop their head motion much more suddenly than in a classic whiplash event.

@Doctor Hoop feel free to chime in

It’s the coup coutrecoup phenomenon.

It’s well documented and studied that concussions can happen without direct impact, though it is less common.

Also, people need to stay in their lane or at least let the facts play out before speculating.

UConn games are covered by an athletic trainer and then an orthopedic sports medicine physician. Generally, a surgeon though sometimes can be primary care sports medicine providers. I know and work with all of them. They are not responsible for concussion assessments.

The staff neurologist (Dr. Alessi) does not attend all home games. When someone has a concern for a possible head injury, they are evaluated by the ATC and pulled.

Athlete then get a SCAT (sports concussive assessment tool) exam on the sidelines. They can also receive an imPACT (immediate post assessment concussion assessment and cognitive test) which is compared to their pre-season responses.

Together they are used as a guide to determine if someone had a concussion. Sometimes it’s obvious. Other times the data and evaluation is more subtle. Neurologists make the final decision/diagnosis.

I assume he saw the neurologist today to make that determination.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

I appreciate that


No problem. Bear with me through this initial stuff, of which you’re probably aware of a decent amount; it’s meant to lead to the answer of your question. The mechanics of brain injury is important to lay out so that my answer makes most sense. *or you can skip ahead to the asterisk

I alluded to the mechanism of arresting/initiating inertia. The inertia of the brain is the core cause of a brain injury. The brain starts moving, and then the head abruptly stops; the brain however keeps moving because it’s essentially floating in liquid, encased by the skull. When the brain keeps moving, it eventually hits the inside of the skull; then often bounces back and hits the other inner surface. This impacts cause respective coup and contre-coup injuries; and, when severe enough, can cause a “stretching” of the nuronal connections about the brain called axonal shear injury, which typically implies a relatively severe injury.

Most concussions are associated with a forward/backward head motion (about the saggital plane) coming to an immediate arrest against an object.

Many concussions are associated with a still head, but an object traveling fast. This is more so related to the blunt force impact.

Plenty of concussions happen from a twisting type of movement with the same inertia principles; think about someone getting caught on the chin in boxing. There’s no actual skull trauma; but the spinning of the head and the strain on neurons deeper in the brain associated with wakefulness are strained, resulting in loss of consciousness.

So, thinking about the classic whiplash injury: someone stopped at a light in a car, hit from behind. The sudden forward movement of the skull is often what causes the most-associated symptom of neck pain (and this is why it’s called whiplash). The head will eventually come to a stop; and if the head was lurched fast/far enough forward, upon stopping and flinging back via a ricochet effect, that then causes the brain to impact the inside of the skull. That is how someone can suffer a brain injury secondary to whiplash.

Now, thinking about how the inertia is arrested. In a whiplash, the head eventually stops; but the deceleration is nothing like impacting a stationary object such as a wall or a windshield or the floor. This is why truly severe brain injuries are not associated primarily with whiplash.

*Now as far as the specific action of falling, landing flat, and possibly getting whiplash without hitting one’s head on the floor. The neck range of motion is such that, when the torso is stationary, all healthy people have range of motion well past the shoulders. In order to somehow not hit one’s head on the floor, someone would in essence have to consciously apply inhuman strength/coordination with maintaining neck flexion, as they’re falling, to fight gravity so as to prevent the head shooting back past the shoulders to hit the floor. That would necessarily stop whatever forces would be required to cause a whiplash injury. Any kind of force that would in another plane of motion against gravity (such as being upright) cause whiplash would more clearly and logically cause someone to hit their head on the floor; and then that trauma becomes a more obvious and more severe mechanism of brain injury. That’s why I would say, to me, it seems nigh impossible for an athlete moving and falling and absorbing impact in the specific (but common) way we saw last night to have a true whiplash injury. They’ll either miraculously prevent the neck extension in the first place, resulting in no head impact and no significant brain injury at all; or they will fail, and the floor will stop their head motion much more suddenly than in a classic whiplash event.

@Doctor Hoop feel free to chime in

Thanks, I will. I'll add just a bit to what you've written, but it's pretty much "dead on balls accurate" (It's an industry term)

Whiplash is much more likely when the head is unsupported in the direction of motion. Which is why they have headrests in cars. If you get hit from behind with no headrest, your car lurches forward while your head stays in the same place. Relative to the movement of the car, the head moves backwards. A headrest braces that backward motion, limiting it.

So a fall to the floor hitting your head also stops head/neck motion, but not in a good way. After something like that you're much more likely to have a headache, but minimal neck pain. True whiplash yields paraspinal muscle spasm, neck stiffness, and can injure discs and facet joints. A headache, if you have one with whiplash, is more likely due to muscle tension/spasm.

A couple of other concussion facts. Once you've had several concussions it generally is easier for you to get another concussion with less trauma, and often each recovery takes longer. Given all of this, with this fall and with his head hitting the floor I'd be more concerned with concussion than whiplash.

According to what I've seen in this thread the medical staff is on it, and not overly concerned. They know what they're doing, let them do it. And let him recover in his own time.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

It’s the coup coutrecoup phenomenon.

It’s well documented and studied that concussions can happen without direct impact, though it is less common.

Also, people need to stay in their lane or at least let the facts play out before speculating.

UConn games are covered by an athletic trainer and then an orthopedic sports medicine physician. Generally, a surgeon though sometimes can be primary care sports medicine providers. I know and work with all of them. They are not responsible for concussion assessments.

The staff neurologist (Dr. Alessi) does not attend all home games. When someone has a concern for a possible head injury, they are evaluated by the ATC and pulled.

Athlete then get a SCAT (sports concussive assessment tool) exam on the sidelines. They can also receive an imPACT (immediate post assessment concussion assessment and cognitive test) which is compared to their pre-season responses.

Together they are used as a guide to determine if someone had a concussion. Sometimes it’s obvious. Other times the data and evaluation is more subtle. Neurologists make the final decision/diagnosis.

I assume he saw the neurologist today to make that determination.

This is also on point.

 

[hasheemthedream]

The classic UConn example of this was Ray Allen vs. Villanova at Gampel. Ray was so overexcited and he was way off. JC put him on the bench for a few minutes and then Ray went off.

This is the big difference between JC and Dan Hurley. I feel JC did a much better job of making in game adjustments and holding players accountable for their play. It seems like Hurley is to pumped up once a game starts and is unable to make the necessary changes. He rarely uses timeouts to send a message and allowing that kid from New Mexico to score 30 on us last year without changing something defensively still is mind boggling.

 

[husky429]

This is the big difference between JC and Dan Hurley. I feel JC did a much better job of making in game adjustments and holding players accountable for their play. It seems like Hurley is to pumped up once a game starts and is unable to make the necessary changes. He rarely uses timeouts to send a message and allowing that kid from New Mexico to score 30 on us last year without changing something defensively still is mind boggling.

You are right. He's still young enough to adapt though.

 

[Scrutiner]

I appreciate that


No problem. Bear with me through this initial stuff, of which you’re probably aware of a decent amount; it’s meant to lead to the answer of your question. The mechanics of brain injury is important to lay out so that my answer makes most sense. *or you can skip ahead to the asterisk

I alluded to the mechanism of arresting/initiating inertia. The inertia of the brain is the core cause of a brain injury. The brain starts moving, and then the head abruptly stops; the brain however keeps moving because it’s essentially floating in liquid, encased by the skull. When the brain keeps moving, it eventually hits the inside of the skull; then often bounces back and hits the other inner surface. This impacts cause respective coup and contre-coup injuries; and, when severe enough, can cause a “stretching” of the nuronal connections about the brain called axonal shear injury, which typically implies a relatively severe injury.

Most concussions are associated with a forward/backward head motion (about the saggital plane) coming to an immediate arrest against an object.

Many concussions are associated with a still head, but an object traveling fast. This is more so related to the blunt force impact.

Plenty of concussions happen from a twisting type of movement with the same inertia principles; think about someone getting caught on the chin in boxing. There’s no actual skull trauma; but the spinning of the head and the strain on neurons deeper in the brain associated with wakefulness are strained, resulting in loss of consciousness.

So, thinking about the classic whiplash injury: someone stopped at a light in a car, hit from behind. The sudden forward movement of the skull is often what causes the most-associated symptom of neck pain (and this is why it’s called whiplash). The head will eventually come to a stop; and if the head was lurched fast/far enough forward, upon stopping and flinging back via a ricochet effect, that then causes the brain to impact the inside of the skull. That is how someone can suffer a brain injury secondary to whiplash.

Now, thinking about how the inertia is arrested. In a whiplash, the head eventually stops; but the deceleration is nothing like impacting a stationary object such as a wall or a windshield or the floor. This is why truly severe brain injuries are not associated primarily with whiplash.

*Now as far as the specific action of falling, landing flat, and possibly getting whiplash without hitting one’s head on the floor. The neck range of motion is such that, when the torso is stationary, all healthy people have range of motion well past the shoulders. In order to somehow not hit one’s head on the floor, someone would in essence have to consciously apply inhuman strength/coordination with maintaining neck flexion, as they’re falling, to fight gravity so as to prevent the head shooting back past the shoulders to hit the floor. That would necessarily stop whatever forces would be required to cause a whiplash injury. Any kind of force that would in another plane of motion against gravity (such as being upright) cause whiplash would more clearly and logically cause someone to hit their head on the floor; and then that trauma becomes a more obvious and more severe mechanism of brain injury. That’s why I would say, to me, it seems nigh impossible for an athlete moving and falling and absorbing impact in the specific (but common) way we saw last night to have a true whiplash injury. They’ll either miraculously prevent the neck extension in the first place, resulting in no head impact and no significant brain injury at all; or they will fail, and the floor will stop their head motion much more suddenly than in a classic whiplash event.

@Doctor Hoop feel free to chime in

As I like to say to tour guides, "how do we know you didn't make all that up?"
Now, seriously, thanks for the physics and physiology review. It all makes perfect sense, and I found the part about stretching neuronal connections and axonal shear especially interesting.

 

[huskymedic]

Alternate access link here <<

 

[CL82]

As I like to say to tour guides, "how do we know you didn't make all that up?"

In the first couple of weeks of my career I was in my office late when a boss from a different group in the company walked into my office and said “I want you to sit in on a phone call.” I thought it would be a learning experience only, you know, sit quietly listen and learn, but when I walked through the door he introduced me to the participants, who were a half dozen well known heavy hitters in my industry, as “our expert” in the subject matter. I am thinking to myself, “oh crap, oh crap, oh crap“ and listened, only half paying attention as I was trying to figure out how the heck I was going to respond to their inevitable question. I decided that, no matter what the question is, I could always respond “well that’s an interesting question, I’ll get back to you on it” and then figure out the answer before I spoke to them next. But as I listen to the fact pattern I realized it was some thing I had actually already worked on in my two weeks, utterly unknown to the guy who brought me in. So when they finished running through all the facts and asked me my thoughts, I gave a long running detailed answer to the question. Since I had been billed as “an expert“ and acted like one everybody accepted it and thanked me for my time and got off the call.

The guy who had brought me in on the call and billed me as an expert, looked flummoxed and said “CL, please tell me you weren’t making that up as you went along”. I replied “not as far as you know” with a big smile on my face.

And that was how I became known as an industry expert with less than two weeks of experience. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.

 

[RedStickHusky]

In the first couple of weeks of my career I was in my office late when a boss from a different group in the company walked into my office and said “I want you to sit in on a phone call.” I thought it would be a learning experience only, you know, sit quietly listen and learn, but when I walked through the door he introduced me to the participants, who were a half dozen well known heavy hitters in my industry, as “our expert” in the subject matter. I am thinking to myself, “oh crap, oh crap, oh crap“ and listened, only half paying attention as I was trying to figure out how the heck I was going to respond to their inevitable question. I decided that, no matter what the question is, I could always respond “well that’s an interesting question, I’ll get back to you on it” and then figure out the answer before I spoke to them next. But as I listen to the fact pattern I realized it was some thing I had actually already worked on in my two weeks, utterly unknown to the guy who brought me in. So when they finished running through all the facts and asked me my thoughts, I gave a long running detailed answer to the question. Since I had been billed as “an expert“ and acted like one everybody accepted it and thanked me for my time and got off the call.

The guy who had brought me in on the call and billed me as an expert, looked flummoxed and said “CL, please tell me you weren’t making that up as you went along”. I replied “not as far as you know” with a big smile on my face.

And that was how I became known as an industry expert with less than two weeks of experience. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.

Fake it 'til you make it, brother.

 

[Huskyhoops25]

Watching replay he didn't hit his head too hard, but it was in a sensitive spot (directly back of the head), so we'll see.

I was on the other end line and I heard the tell-tale sound of his head thumping the floor pretty good

 

[Scrutiner]

In the first couple of weeks of my career I was in my office late when a boss from a different group in the company walked into my office and said “I want you to sit in on a phone call.” I thought it would be a learning experience only, you know, sit quietly listen and learn, but when I walked through the door he introduced me to the participants, who were a half dozen well known heavy hitters in my industry, as “our expert” in the subject matter. I am thinking to myself, “oh crap, oh crap, oh crap“ and listened, only half paying attention as I was trying to figure out how the heck I was going to respond to their inevitable question. I decided that, no matter what the question is, I could always respond “well that’s an interesting question, I’ll get back to you on it” and then figure out the answer before I spoke to them next. But as I listen to the fact pattern I realized it was some thing I had actually already worked on in my two weeks, utterly unknown to the guy who brought me in. So when they finished running through all the facts and asked me my thoughts, I gave a long running detailed answer to the question. Since I had been billed as “an expert“ and acted like one everybody accepted it and thanked me for my time and got off the call.

The guy who had brought me in on the call and billed me as an expert, looked flummoxed and said “CL, please tell me you weren’t making that up as you went along”. I replied “not as far as you know” with a big smile on my face.

And that was how I became known as an industry expert with less than two weeks of experience. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.

Great story. Many things have worked out for me throughout life, even when I was facing what I thought was a critical problem.

If I'd only spent less time enjoying life and been smart enough to recognize I was somehow blessed with timing, serendipity, unconsciously made correct decisions, circumstance, or whatever, I'd be the guy funding Jim Mora's listed financial challenges!

 

[aburks41]

I'm going to assume that Hawkins is out on Friday for precautionary reasons, but no news is good news on the concussion protocol. If he had a concussion, it would have been diagnosed by now.

 

[husky429]

I was on the other end line and I heard the tell-tale sound of his head thumping the floor pretty good

The big "thump" was mostly his back, actually.

 

[Huskyhoops25]

The big "thump" was mostly his back, actually.

I’m sorry but a back does not give the “coconut” sound. Just giving my opinion as a Navy Corpsman who served with the Maines.

 

[QDOG5]

I remember the Maines.

 

[Huskyhoops25]

I remember the Maines.

Nice reference!

 

[QDOG5]

@Huskyhoops25, no disrespect intended just seemed like a funny word play. More importantly I want to thank you for your service to our country. You have the appreciation of my entire family.

 

[LIuconn]

I don't really trust Hurley on injuries since the Bouk drama

 

[Huskyhoops25]

@Huskyhoops25, no disrespect intended just seemed like a funny word play. More importantly I want to thank you for your service to our country. You have the appreciation of my entire family.

Got a good chuckle!

 

[87Xfer]

I'm going to assume that Hawkins is out on Friday for precautionary reasons, but no news is good news on the concussion protocol. If he had a concussion, it would have been diagnosed by now.

probably but does that mean it would have been announced by now?

 

[Vancat]

 

[Palatine]

Basically, nobody knows nutin.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

I don't really trust Hurley on injuries since the Bouk drama

that's neither correct nor fair. let's review:
bouk fall down and go boom. doc's check in, say he needs the scalpel,
and tell danny '4 to 6 weeks.' danny sez '4 to 6 weeks.'
bouk returns 6 weeks later. period. u can look it up.
along that descent into by loonytunes, sum guy becomes by legend as a 'bouk insider.' folks here lose their minds daily with questions for an answer already given- 4 to 6 weeks. madness.
i have some criticisms for danny, but none are on the dr boneyard side.

moar importantly, what am i gonna do with a room full of sage? it's got to get the heck outta here, cuz sumone read the riot act to me recently 'it goes, or u do!' stuff do stink, i'll say that...
pretty funny as it's my hut.

sage for sale! sage for sale! get your sage here! good prices!
im keeping the cookies tho. could come in handy.

mebbe that bouk insider wants to buy some. iffn anyone sees him, could ya tell him for me? i'll give you a cut, 10, no 50 %, aw heck, who am i kidding, he can have it for free.

 

[JT-55]

I’m sorry but a back does not give the “coconut” sound. Just giving my opinion as a Navy Corpsman who served with the Maines.

Was sitting in the 200 section and had a good angle on the fall. Landed on his back and the head followed. Could hear his head hit the floor from the cheap seats (the seats actually aren't that cheap anymore but that is neither here nor there )