Gerritt Cole

[storrsroars]

Seems like any pitcher who went to Houston for a period of time over the last few years became Sandy Koufax overnight. Verlander found the fountain of youth, Morton went from an okay pitcher to a great pitcher and Cole became God. I'm sure their blase' attitude toward the rules didn't stop with the hitters so even as a Yankee fan, I can realistically assume that Cole (among others) is no angel.

I honestly don't believe Morton cheated by using gunk. He started his turnaround at the very end of his time with Pirates and was looking great with Phils before getting injured. Morton is all about doing the right thing.

Cole..not so much.

 

[djct1999]

So Gerritt Cole just essentially admitted to cheating. Where is the outrage from all the Yankee fans who crucified the Astros and the Red Sox for stealing signs?? (Which by the way the Yankees were doing too). Same group that love hopping on Manny and Big Papi but are silent about Giambi, Clemens and AFraud. They are all cheating. Some get caught some don’t. Some are more obvious than others. I actually give Cole credit for not blatantly lying like all the rest.

You take steroids away from Arod or Barry Bonds and they are hall of famers. You take steriods away from David Ortiz, he hits .230 with 13 home runs. In all, I'd say the Sox and in particular, Ortiz, got a major pass.

 

[aburks41]

MLB juiced the ball a few years ago so pitchers started using sticky stuff to get an advantage again. Now the ball is dejuiced and pitchers are just too good. I guarantee you 90% of pitchers use something to gain an advantage. Pretending like Cole is the only one is a total joke, and if the Yanks let their ace be the fall guy for this then they need new PR people.

 

[CL82]

You take steroids away from Arod or Barry Bonds and they are hall of famers. You take steriods away from David Ortiz, he hits .230 with 13 home runs. In all, I'd say the Sox and in particular, Ortiz, got a major pass.

Lol I’m sure you would, but that doesn’t make it accurate.

 

[Mr. French]

What a dork how he answered that.

 

[the Q]

MLB juiced the ball a few years ago so pitchers started using sticky stuff to get an advantage again. Now the ball is dejuiced and pitchers are just too good. I guarantee you 90% of pitchers use something to gain an advantage. Pretending like Cole is the only one is a total joke, and if the Yanks let their ace be the fall guy for this then they need new PR people.

I don’t think anyone is.

But when you have a 300m contract you are going to be the target, especially with an answer like that.

Pitchers have been allowed to use rosin for a long time.

That’s all they need. Anything else is cheating.

A fair compromise is to move the mound back 2 feet but give them a little more on the seams, mlb balls are like pool cue balls

 

[Magruber]

If I were Gerrit Cole I wouldnt wanna pitch right now with this Yankee lineup. Whatever let pitchers us pine tar and doctor the ball, and juice the ball too and let batters use pine tar on their bat who cares. Let teams use the shift if they want go ahead and steal bases. You know what bring back steroids, MLB knew about that its what brought baseball back.

Ya Yankees used roids and so did Sox players so what. Astros used technology thats a big difference, stealing signs isnt in the same ball park.

Um, wrong.
Cheating is Cheating.
Period.

You seemingly are say some people are better cheaters than others. They're all bad.

 

[Palatine]

Wow is this painful.

 

[CTBasketball]

How would you give both the pitcher and the hitter an advantage? That doesn't make sense.

Anyway, pitchers don't need a bigger advantage. The collective batting average in baseball is lower than it's been in something like 50 years, it's like .235 or something. Bums are throwing no-hitters. If you took your average major league starter and gave him a time machine to the 60s or 70s he's a top of the line starter and Cy Young candidate.

Lower the mound again, juice the balls, let them cork their bats. Do something.

The reason averages are so low is because MLB and it’s franchises has been incentivizing the HR. Teams would rather have a guy with a .230 BA, 40 HR, 100 RBI, and 150 K’s than a guy who hits .310, 5 HR, 40 RBI, 30 SB and 75 K’s.

It’s not the pitcher’s fault (or the field dimension’s fault) that a hitter down 0-2 doesn’t look to make contact to send it opposite field. The game has changed for the worse within the last 5-10 years because of this power-minded approach.

 

[aburks41]

The reason averages are so low is because MLB and it’s franchises has been incentivizing the HR. Teams would rather have a guy with a .230 BA, 40 HR, 100 RBI, and 150 K’s than a guy who hits .310, 5 HR, 40 RBI, 30 SB and 75 K’s.

It’s not the pitcher’s fault (or the field dimension’s fault) that a hitter down 0-2 doesn’t look to make contact to send it opposite field. The game has changed for the worse within the last 5-10 years because of this power-minded approach.

Three True Outcomes has been the worst thing to ever happen to baseball

 

[the Q]

Three True Outcomes has been the worst thing to ever happen to baseball

It’s similar to the trash 3 and layup basketball.

Football was the biggest winner of analytics. More passing

 

[Psolo12]

Played baseball in college and got a few friends that are currently in pro ball at different levels and they say every single pitcher uses some form of this without fail. If you're not using it, you're simply not as competitive as those who do. Either MLB has to come down on everyone or make some form of the pine tar concoction legal.

 

[the Q]

Played baseball in college and got a few friends that are currently in pro ball at different levels and they say every single pitcher uses some form of this without fail. If you're not using it, you're simply not as competitive as those who do. Either MLB has to come down on everyone or make some form of the pine tar concoction legal.

Anything that isn’t rosin should be banned.

Only spray on sunscreen is allowed.

Simple

 

[mauconnfan]

I honestly don't believe Morton cheated by using gunk. He started his turnaround at the very end of his time with Pirates and was looking great with Phils before getting injured. Morton is all about doing the right thing.

Cole..not so much.

Please, Morton was a no one then boom, the Astros. All of their pitchers all got better when they arrived after their careers were falling including Verlander. All pitchers are probably doing something to enhance their ability who knows what each do from scuffing, pine tar to now this. Hell years ago they tried not to let pitchers wipe their brow to gain an advantage now they do it all the time on the rubber.

 

[mauconnfan]

The Mitchell report was a total crock btw not a single Redsox players on the list.

You saw it LOL? Guessing there were plenty. It was rampant throughout the league thinking anything else is ridiculous.

 

[superjohn]

I honestly don't believe Morton cheated by using gunk. He started his turnaround at the very end of his time with Pirates and was looking great with Phils before getting injured. Morton is all about doing the right thing.

Cole..not so much.

Lol, you're naive.

 

[superjohn]

It’s similar to the trash 3 and layup basketball.

Football was the biggest winner of analytics. More passing

I find football close to unwatchable now.

 

[cohenzone]

I hear you and wish they would all come clean but I don't know a single Yankee fan who was ever silent or pretended Giambi, Clemens, and AFraud weren't juicing. ARod is probably the most hated Yankee of all-time.

I don’t know about that as far as being hated goes. He was guilty but so were at a minimum dozens of other players who weren’t punished the same way.

As far as Cole goes, ditto. One player names him but if the Yankee hater who started this thread thinks almost every other pitcher isn’t doing the same, I have a bridge to sell them. That said, pitching is way too dominant today. Especially with almost every team having 3 or 4 one inning late game studs. Comebacks are rare. Although I blame hitters for being HR crazy and not hitting away from over shift, maybe the shift should be outlawed, at least to the point where 2 infielders have to be somewhere on one side of second base and the second baseman can’t be playing short field.

 

[Rico444]

I read something the other day that Bauer and Cole both have had their spin rates climb to insane levels the last few years, coinciding with their dominant stats. deGrom's have stayed fairly level, and in fact I believe his spin rate has dropped a little this year.

In an article in (I think?) the Athletic, they documented how spider tack added around 500 RPMs to pitchers' spin rates almost immediately, and even one of the writers for their website throwing 49 MPH fastballs gained 500 RPMs after applying spider tack. I get that pitchers are going to use something to help with grip, and I don't have a problem with a little something like rosin, but this stuff is definitely over the line.

 

[Psolo12]

I read something the other day that Bauer and Cole both have had their spin rates climb to insane levels the last few years, coinciding with their dominant stats. deGrom's have stayed fairly level, and in fact I believe his spin rate has dropped a little this year.

In an article in (I think?) the Athletic, they documented how spider tack added around 500 RPMs to pitchers' spin rates almost immediately, and even one of the writers for their website throwing 49 MPH fastballs gained 500 RPMs after applying spider tack. I get that pitchers are going to use something to help with grip, and I don't have a problem with a little something like rosin, but this stuff is definitely over the line.

Don't really like Bauer even though I think some of the stuff he does is beneficial to the game. But in his defense he only started doing it after he called people out for it and said it was an unfair advantage and then nobody did anything about it.

 

[storrsroars]

Please, Morton was a no one then boom, the Astros.

Lol, you're naive.

Morton always had a ton of movement, and an inability to control it when needed. He also was labeled a "head case" as he tended to overthink things - which was why his post-game interviews were always interesting. The Pirates organizational philosophy had him throwing mostly 2-seamers, earning him the moniker "Ground Chuck" as he didn't K many, but induced a lot of ground balls. Ray Searage didn't want him throwing a cutter and also had him cease throwing his slider. Thus he had nothing to work with vs LH batters, who routinely killed him.

He started throwing more 4-seamers and increased his velocity a couple ticks at the end of the '15 season, and continued that improvement in ST and April with the Phillies in '16. When he got to Houston he was throwing predominately 4-seamers, brought back his cutter, which he now throws 10% of the time, and increased usage of his wicked curve, at the same time moving to a different arm slot resulting in another tick of velo. Tampa had him decrease usage of his change in favor of more curves.

It's all there in the metrics.

FTR, here are Morton's spin rates with the Phils in 2016 vs Astros in 2018 vs Rays in 2020:
4-seam: 2327 / 2243 / 2349
Curve: 2973 / 2923 / 2887
Sinker: 1951 / 2109 / 2157

Does that look even remotely like that kind of spin rate increase that Cole and others have has using Spider Grip or whatever? No, it does not. I've followed Morton for years and he's always been a favorite because he's an oddball and disarmingly honest. You guys have probably never seen a single interview with him, nor were even aware of his history with Pirates and how they kept screwing him up. But go ahead and just lump him in with everyone else because it's convenient to do so.

 

[Waquoit]

Not sure I’d classify doctoring the ball in the same category as chemically altering your body or using electronic surveillance, but everyone can draw the line where they please.

Doctoring the ball is worse

 

[superjohn]

Morton always had a ton of movement, and an inability to control it when needed. He also was labeled a "head case" as he tended to overthink things - which was why his post-game interviews were always interesting. The Pirates organizational philosophy had him throwing mostly 2-seamers, earning him the moniker "Ground Chuck" as he didn't K many, but induced a lot of ground balls. Ray Searage didn't want him throwing a cutter and also had him cease throwing his slider. Thus he had nothing to work with vs LH batters, who routinely killed him.

He started throwing more 4-seamers and increased his velocity a couple ticks at the end of the '15 season, and continued that improvement in ST and April with the Phillies in '16. When he got to Houston he was throwing predominately 4-seamers, brought back his cutter, which he now throws 10% of the time, and increased usage of his wicked curve, at the same time moving to a different arm slot resulting in another tick of velo. Tampa had him decrease usage of his change in favor of more curves.

It's all there in the metrics.

FTR, here are Morton's spin rates with the Phils in 2016 vs Astros in 2018 vs Rays in 2020:
4-seam: 2327 / 2243 / 2349
Curve: 2973 / 2923 / 2887
Sinker: 1951 / 2109 / 2157

Does that look even remotely like that kind of spin rate increase that Cole and others have has using Spider Grip or whatever? No, it does not. I've followed Morton for years and he's always been a favorite because he's an oddball and disarmingly honest. You guys have probably never seen a single interview with him, nor were even aware of his history with Pirates and how they kept screwing him up. But go ahead and just lump him in with everyone else because it's convenient to do so.

You're looking way too much into this, they all do it. This reminds me of people looking at players bodies and #'s to determine who was using PED's and who wasn't.

I've followed Morton's entire career and have seen tons of interviews with him, I'm a huge fan of his. I follow the careers of every single pro CT. athlete.

 

[mauconnfan]

Morton always had a ton of movement, and an inability to control it when needed. He also was labeled a "head case" as he tended to overthink things - which was why his post-game interviews were always interesting. The Pirates organizational philosophy had him throwing mostly 2-seamers, earning him the moniker "Ground Chuck" as he didn't K many, but induced a lot of ground balls. Ray Searage didn't want him throwing a cutter and also had him cease throwing his slider. Thus he had nothing to work with vs LH batters, who routinely killed him.

He started throwing more 4-seamers and increased his velocity a couple ticks at the end of the '15 season, and continued that improvement in ST and April with the Phillies in '16. When he got to Houston he was throwing predominately 4-seamers, brought back his cutter, which he now throws 10% of the time, and increased usage of his wicked curve, at the same time moving to a different arm slot resulting in another tick of velo. Tampa had him decrease usage of his change in favor of more curves.

It's all there in the metrics.

FTR, here are Morton's spin rates with the Phils in 2016 vs Astros in 2018 vs Rays in 2020:
4-seam: 2327 / 2243 / 2349
Curve: 2973 / 2923 / 2887
Sinker: 1951 / 2109 / 2157

Does that look even remotely like that kind of spin rate increase that Cole and others have has using Spider Grip or whatever? No, it does not. I've followed Morton for years and he's always been a favorite because he's an oddball and disarmingly honest. You guys have probably never seen a single interview with him, nor were even aware of his history with Pirates and how they kept screwing him up. But go ahead and just lump him in with everyone else because it's convenient to do so.

LOL forgot you were an expert. My bad! No one doctors the ball but Cole now that he's a Yankee. What was I thinking?

 

[mauconnfan]

Doctoring the ball is worse

Hilarious. Knowing what pitch is coming to a major league hitter is just a small advantage suddenly to Sox and Astros fans. My God this is funny!

 

[storrsroars]

What was I thinking?

You weren't as far as Morton is concerned.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

MLB is about to drop the hammer on doctoring balls and Cole just stumbled into becoming the face of it. Guessing MLB has decided that this is the one thing they can change to juice up the hitting a bit and lower the strikeouts. My guess is that we start to see a decent drop in spin rates once this is implemented. I agree that the strikeout rate is in part related to guys swinging for the fences but the spin rate is part of it as well.

 

[storrsroars]

Hilarious. Knowing what pitch is coming a major league hitter is just a small advantage suddenly to Sox and Astros fans. My God this is funny!

I know how to prove which is the bigger advantage... give Gallagher some Spider Tack and let's replay the CMU elimination game.

 

[boog204]

Don't really like Bauer even though I think some of the stuff he does is beneficial to the game. But in his defense he only started doing it after he called people out for it and said it was an unfair advantage and then nobody did anything about it.

This was Bonds view, too except his was jealousy of the notoriety that lesser places like McGwire and Sosa were getting over him.

 

[Psolo12]

This was Bonds view, too except his was jealousy of the notoriety that lesser places like McGwire and Sosa were getting over him.

In this case I'm not so sure its jealousy of notoriety instead of just trying to compete at the highest level with their peers. However, Bauer really does not like Cole so it's possible in his case it's out of disdain for Cole.