Game of Thrones - Season 5 | Page 7 | The Boneyard

Game of Thrones - Season 5

Spartacus said:
Nice. And a segue to a question I've pondered . . . . One I think HBO and the book readers have the same amount of information to answer, but correct me if I'm wrong---

What to make out of Melissandra's you-know-nothing quip to John? It happens on television and in print. Why? A coincidental use of the phrase? Seems as good an explanation as any, but I dunno. Any theories where it's not coincidental have to involve her magic, right? I doubt she knew Ygritte . . . . .
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My take was Mellisandra appearing to be all-knowing for Jon's benefit by channeling Ygritte...may also refer by way of double entendres to any number of things Jon thinks he knows...
 
This season is so weak IMO. None of the story lines have engaged me, and I absolutely loved the first 4 seasons.

The Tyrell nonsense is absurd - the idea that now Margaery is being put on trial was ridiculous, especially, the fact that these high priests could become more powerful than the king and queen in the matter of 1 episode, without any explanation as to how. The Bolton/Theon/Sansa story line is cringe worthy. The sand snakes - why should we care? - and they will be dragging down Bronn and Jaime, who I think are usually fascinating. We all know Danearys isn't doing jack-sh__ besides making questions decisions and Tyrion, my favorite character, has been stuck with one of the most boring characters in Mormont. I still have no idea what the hell is going on with Arya. Ugh...what a bummer.

I am intrigued by the Snow story line and that was my least favorite story line last year - I don't think it has engaged me any more than last year but at least it hasn't gotten worse.
 
walker11 said:
This season is so weak IMO. None of the story lines have engaged me, and I absolutely loved the first 4 seasons.

The Tyrell nonsense is absurd - the idea that now Margaery is being put on trial was ridiculous, especially, the fact that these high priests could become more powerful than the king and queen in the matter of 1 episode, without any explanation as to how. The Bolton/Theon/Sansa story line is cringe worthy. The sand snakes - why should we care? - and they will be dragging down Bronn and Jaime, who I think are usually fascinating. We all know Danearys isn't doing jack-sh__ besides making questions decisions and Tyrion, my favorite character, has been stuck with one of the most boring characters in Mormont. I still have no idea what the hell is going on with Arya. Ugh...what a bummer.

I am intrigued by the Snow story line and that was my least favorite story line last year - I don't think it has engaged me any more than last year but at least it hasn't gotten worse.
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Pretty sure the religious strategy is going to backfire on Cersei. But in general, I agree, this season has been way too transitional.
 
The even numbered episodes seem to stumble a bit. The Sand Snakes are an embarrassment to the show. Just write them off at this point. There is no saving their relevance, and their silliness is wasting Doran Martell and Areo Hotah, who should be interesting characters, and making Bronn and Jaime silly too.

I know where the show is going with Kings Landing, and it is lurching there awkwardly. Neither the books nor the show ever explain why Cersei engages in something as self-destructive as pissing off the Tyrells, who are the Lannister's only allies. The show explains the high level reason, the fear of Margaery replacing her, but Cersei is smart enough to know there will be consequences for antagonizing them, and I never understand how she assesses those consequences.

Littlefinger in Kings Landing was awesome. I like the comparison of Littlefinger's triple or quadruple treachery to Cersei's head on, obvious manipulation, which I think was deliberate by the writers of the show. Littlefinger is an A player and Cersei is a B or C player. It was an unexpected but brilliant, ballsy move to out the existence of Sansa, and ties in perfectly with his scheming. He will never be caught as the source, all anyone will ever know is that Cersei found out. Littlefinger got Cersei to agree to not help the Boltons when they are attacked, which pretty much guarantees their defeat. Littlefinger has the only surviving Stark and Tully, he has the Vale, and he got Cersei to let him take all of it without sending single sword to stop him. And Sansa is the only one that has to pay the price by banging Ramsey.

The scene with Reek, Ramsey and Sansa was tough TV to watch, but there was really no avoiding once Sansa decided to be a player herself. I think that scene was as much about Sansa's internal conflict about what she has to do to survive. It wasn't a surprise to her that this was coming, and she had humiliated the kennel girl in the previous scene which showed that she knew she had to win Ramsey over.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
The even numbered episodes seem to stumble a bit. The Sand Snakes are an embarrassment to the show. Just write them off at this point. There is no saving their relevance, and their silliness is wasting Doran Martell and Areo Hotah, who should be interesting characters, and making Bronn and Jaime silly too.

I know where the show is going with Kings Landing, and it is lurching there awkwardly. Neither the books nor the show ever explain why Cersei engages in something as self-destructive as pissing off the Tyrells, who are the Lannister's only allies. The show explains the high level reason, the fear of Margaery replacing her, but Cersei is smart enough to know there will be consequences for antagonizing them, and I never understand how she assesses those consequences.

Littlefinger in Kings Landing was awesome. I like the comparison of Littlefinger's triple or quadruple treachery to Cersei's head on, obvious manipulation, which I think was deliberate by the writers of the show. Littlefinger is an A player and Cersei is a B or C player. It was an unexpected but brilliant, ballsy move to out the existence of Sansa, and ties in perfectly with his scheming. He will never be caught as the source, all anyone will ever know is that Cersei found out. Littlefinger got Cersei to agree to not help the Boltons when they are attacked, which pretty much guarantees their defeat. Littlefinger has the only surviving Stark and Tully, he has the Vale, and he got Cersei to let him take all of it without sending single sword to stop him. And Sansa is the only one that has to pay the price by banging Ramsey.

The scene with Reek, Ramsey and Sansa was tough TV to watch, but there was really no avoiding once Sansa decided to be a player herself. I think that scene was as much about Sansa's internal conflict about what she has to do to survive. It wasn't a surprise to her that this was coming, and she had humiliated the kennel girl in the previous scene which showed that she knew she had to win Ramsey over.
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I was hugely disappointed in the continuation of Sansa as sympathetic victim. For a second I thought she'd take a more proactive stance for her own well being. Guess not. I would have loved for her to have her Dany moment in the marital bed and demand Ramsey get rid of Miranda the kennel girl before consumating. Instead we get a marital gender bending rerun of Theon in the dungeon. No thanks.

The sand snakes are a waste of screen time, like those two Lost characters that no one liked, Paulo and someone. The whole Drone arc seems ruined. Hotah and the other characters written out of the TV show were much more entertaining. Relegating Dr. Bashir to On Golden Pond reenactments is another huge mistake.

I get the Kings Landing/Martell arc, using old characters in place of the new Martells and Lannisters that showed up after Tywin died, but again it is very ham fisted. The gay persecution is just an unnecessary and obvious political statement on current events. I watch the news for that stuff. Here's a rule, if your show has dragons in it, you should try to parallel current events. Just entertain.

Tyrion and Jorah need to get to Mereen. Until they do it's just passing time.

How the Jon Snow thing plays out will be interesting and could make or break the series over the final seasons depending how much they are willing to stray from the books. I think they will stray, but don't know if it will work.

The only thing I do like is Arya and the Faceless Men. It's very well done, exactly ad I read it. The truncation of her trip to Bravos, I think confuses the TV only watchers. Going from the Hounds ward to assassin happened awfully quick IMO. I hope they give her some assassin homework to make up the development.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
The scene with Reek, Ramsey and Sansa was tough TV to watch, but there was really no avoiding once Sansa decided to be a player herself. I think that scene was as much about Sansa's internal conflict about what she has to do to survive. It wasn't a surprise to her that this was coming, and she had humiliated the kennel girl in the previous scene which showed that she knew she had to win Ramsey over.
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That wasnt tough TV. Im really rooting for Ramsay to rough that biotch up. Sansa is pretty much the sole reason her father is dead, and Ive wanted to see her pay the consequences since season 1. (by the way, that is half tongue in cheek ,but I DO loathe Sansa) .Its the only redeeming quality of this season.


After seeing the sand snakes scene with Jamie and Bronn last night I officially became embarrassed to be a game of thrones watcher. My wife stopped watching season 1 after Ned got his head chopped off, says the show is too dark, violent, and sexually exploitative for her hippie sensibilities. Last night she was talking on the phone while I was watching the episode and she put down the phone during sand snakes scene to ask me to turn TV down and said "what stupid show is this"? I told her it was GoT. And she said "THIS is Game of Thrones, now? What happened to this show? It looks like a bad kung fu movie".

Shes not wrong.
 
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It's almost like they have a good scriptwriter working the Arya/JonSnow/Cersei/Littlefinger stories and the bad scriptwriter doing everything else. The Sand Snakes are like something out of a Starz network show or something. Boooo.
 
ZooCougar said:
It's almost like they have a good scriptwriter working the Arya/JonSnow/Cersei/Littlefinger stories and the bad scriptwriter doing everything else. The Sand Snakes are like something out of a Starz network show or something. Boooo.
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At the risk of giving credit to Martin, outside of Littlefinger, those story arcs are fairly consistent with the books.

The sand snakes, not so much.
 
SubbaBub said:
At the risk of giving credit to Martin, outside of Littlefinger, those story arcs are fairly consistent with the books.

The sand snakes, not so much.
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I disagree about the consistency. Martin's handling of King's Landing is an utter mess from a plot standpoint, and the writers are repairing a lot of damage there. Martin's treatment of Sansa is even sillier. The show is a huge improvement on that part of the books. Stannis is much more interesting in the show than the books.

Ironically, the show is faithful to the books with the Sand Snakes, but it just isn't translating well to TV. Throwing Bronn and Jaime into Dorne hasn't worked at all since they got off the boat. I am hopeful the Dorne arc will improve now that everyone in Dorne is arrested. Some of the best scenes in the show have occurred in dungeons.

@ August: Sansa is not going to become a badass overnight. She is also smart enough to realize a frontal confrontation with Ramsey will not go well. She is more Littlefinger than Cersei or Danaerys. She is playing the long game, as is Arya. I also don't hold Sansa responsible for her father's death. Ned was playing the game so badly he basically deserved to die. Kaitlyn was marginally better, which didn't do her a lot of good. Renly tried to hand Ned the kingdom, and Ned wouldn't take it because he didn't want to hurt his dead friend's feelings.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I disagree about the consistency. Martin's handling of King's Landing is an utter mess from a plot standpoint, and the writers are repairing a lot of damage there. Martin's treatment of Sansa is even sillier. The show is a huge improvement on that part of the books. Stannis is much more interesting in the show than the books.

Ironically, the show is faithful to the books with the Sand Snakes, but it just isn't translating well to TV. Throwing Bronn and Jaime into Dorne hasn't worked at all since they got off the boat. I am hopeful the Dorne arc will improve now that everyone in Dorne is arrested. Some of the best scenes in the show have occurred in dungeons.

@ August: Sansa is not going to become a badass overnight. She is also smart enough to realize a frontal confrontation with Ramsey will not go well. She is more Littlefinger than Cersei or Danaerys. She is playing the long game, as is Arya. I also don't hold Sansa responsible for her father's death. Ned was playing the game so badly he basically deserved to die. Kaitlyn was marginally better, which didn't do her a lot of good. Renly tried to hand Ned the kingdom, and Ned wouldn't take it because he didn't want to hurt his dead friend's feelings.
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I dont want Sansa to be a badass. She is pathetic.
Ned was playing the game pretty well to that point and was getting out of the city. He would've too but spoiled brat Sansa didnt want to leave kings landing and her shot at marrying Joffrey so she spilled the beans on Neds plan to leave Kings landing to Cersei. Screw Sansa. She pretty much amounts to a blood traitor.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I disagree about the consistency. Martin's handling of King's Landing is an utter mess from a plot standpoint, and the writers are repairing a lot of damage there. Martin's treatment of Sansa is even sillier. The show is a huge improvement on that part of the books. Stannis is much more interesting in the show than the books.

Ironically, the show is faithful to the books with the Sand Snakes, but it just isn't translating well to TV. Throwing Bronn and Jaime into Dorne hasn't worked at all since they got off the boat. I am hopeful the Dorne arc will improve now that everyone in Dorne is arrested. Some of the best scenes in the show have occurred in dungeons.

@ August: Sansa is not going to become a badass overnight. She is also smart enough to realize a frontal confrontation with Ramsey will not go well. She is more Littlefinger than Cersei or Danaerys. She is playing the long game, as is Arya. I also don't hold Sansa responsible for her father's death. Ned was playing the game so badly he basically deserved to die. Kaitlyn was marginally better, which didn't do her a lot of good. Renly tried to hand Ned the kingdom, and Ned wouldn't take it because he didn't want to hurt his dead friend's feelings.
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First, I had to snicker at the suggestion of a "frontal" confrontation given that Ramsay opted otherwise . . .

Anyway, if you take each story arc and rate it as better/worse than the books, I would say this:

1) The Wall/Jon Snow/Stannis -- Somewhat better in the show. The actors in Jon and Stannis' roles are shining here.
2) Cersei/Margery/Faith Militant -- A wash. Cersei thinking that she's wiser than she really is comes across better in the show, but the rise of the Faith Militant is not given sufficient attention and background.
3) Arya -- Good in both. The show has the potential to be better if they don't rush.
4) Sansa/Petyr/Boltons -- Better in the show. The books were needlessly complicated here.
5) Danaerys -- Better in the show, but not great in either. Killing Barristan Selmy did nothing to advance the story.
6) Dorne -- Way, way worse in the show. While the idea of the sand snakes is similar to that in the books, the execution is awful in the show, and adding Bron and Jaime didn't fix anything.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I disagree about the consistency. Martin's handling of King's Landing is an utter mess from a plot standpoint, and the writers are repairing a lot of damage there. Martin's treatment of Sansa is even sillier. The show is a huge improvement on that part of the books. Stannis is much more interesting in the show than the books.

Ironically, the show is faithful to the books with the Sand Snakes, but it just isn't translating well to TV. Throwing Bronn and Jaime into Dorne hasn't worked at all since they got off the boat. I am hopeful the Dorne arc will improve now that everyone in Dorne is arrested. Some of the best scenes in the show have occurred in dungeons.

@ August: Sansa is not going to become a badass overnight. She is also smart enough to realize a frontal confrontation with Ramsey will not go well. She is more Littlefinger than Cersei or Danaerys. She is playing the long game, as is Arya. I also don't hold Sansa responsible for her father's death. Ned was playing the game so badly he basically deserved to die. Kaitlyn was marginally better, which didn't do her a lot of good. Renly tried to hand Ned the kingdom, and Ned wouldn't take it because he didn't want to hurt his dead friend's feelings.
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We'll disagree on the snakes. In the books they have power bases of their own and aren't sitting around the water garden pouting until it's time for Powerpuff Girl action.

As for Cersei, the premise that the Lannister family would leave her alone in KL, is hard for me to buy. As is her direct involvement with the sparrows. It's so cliche as to be insulting.

I would have been happy with a Sansa free season, and left the story the way it was. It would have provided more room for Theon, Ramsey, and Arya (even half a world away) in the greater arc still to be played in both the show and the books still to be written. I think this choice amongst all others will look silliest once the final books are written.
 
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It's getting close to a point with me where the show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned. I will say that I have read the books and for the most part I did not have any major issues w/ the changes they decided to make. I was actually happy with several changes they made at the beginning of this season, but things have gone terribly wrong.

It seems they have lost the ability to build tension like they did in previous seasons. Something like the Sparrows and Faith Militant taking power in Kings Landing happened way too quickly without any foundation being laid. If I had not read the books this would have been really confusing to me.

I find the story line in Dorne to be similar. None of those characters have been fleshed out at all and the whole thing seems rushed. The episode last night w/ Bronn and Jamie meeting the sand snakes was laughably bad. From the general outline of events down to the dialogue and fight scene. Nothing redeeming about it.

I thought the story in Winterfell had been going fine, but the events after the wedding were just too much and borderline uncalled for.

They decided that books 4 and 5 would not make for great TV (I personally didn't hate book 4 like most people did), but by combining the two books into essentially one season I think they have made some serious mistakes. The plot doesn't seem to be flowing properly and the changes that at first seemed like good ideas are starting to become problematic. I am beginning to worry that they will not be able to right the ship.

Also - I hate that the Greyjoys have essentially been cut from the show at this point. Who wouldn't want to watch a bunch of pirates running around Westeros?
 
Penfield said:
It's getting close to a point with me where the show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned. I will say that I have read the books and for the most part I did not have any major issues w/ the changes they decided to make. I was actually happy with several changes they made at the beginning of this season, but things have gone terribly wrong.

It seems they have lost the ability to build tension like they did in previous seasons. Something like the Sparrows and Faith Militant taking power in Kings Landing happened way too quickly without any foundation being laid. If I had not read the books this would have been really confusing to me.

I find the story line in Dorne to be similar. None of those characters have been fleshed out at all and the whole thing seems rushed. The episode last night w/ Bronn and Jamie meeting the sand snakes was laughably bad. From the general outline of events down to the dialogue and fight scene. Nothing redeeming about it.

I thought the story in Winterfell had been going fine, but the events after the wedding were just too much and borderline uncalled for.

They decided that books 4 and 5 would not make for great TV (I personally didn't hate book 4 like most people did), but by combining the two books into essentially one season I think they have made some serious mistakes. The plot doesn't seem to be flowing properly and the changes that at first seemed like good ideas are starting to become problematic. I am beginning to worry that they will not be able to right the ship.

Also - I hate that the Greyjoys have essentially been cut from the show at this point. Who wouldn't want to watch a bunch of pirates running around Westeros?
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Agreed. I thought the whole Euron/Victarion feud would make for great TV. Definitely more appealing than the sand snakes. They also should not have cut out Griff/Young Griff. That's the most exciting subplot happening in the books and to avoid it on TV is crazy IMO.
 
UConnTrumbull said:
Agreed. I thought the whole Euron/Victarion feud would make for great TV. Definitely more appealing than the sand snakes. They also should not have cut out Griff/Young Griff. That's the most exciting subplot happening in the books and to avoid it on TV is crazy IMO.
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I also enjoyed the Griff / Young Griff story, but understand they had to move the Tyrion thing along faster. I guess it's not impossible for them to eventually show up in the TV show.

I think I could deal w/ almost any change as long as it was done well and made for good TV. At this point I don't think it is making for very good TV anymore. Hopefully they figure their ish out.
 
Penfield said:
It's getting close to a point with me where the show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned. I will say that I have read the books and for the most part I did not have any major issues w/ the changes they decided to make. I was actually happy with several changes they made at the beginning of this season, but things have gone terribly wrong.

It seems they have lost the ability to build tension like they did in previous seasons. Something like the Sparrows and Faith Militant taking power in Kings Landing happened way too quickly without any foundation being laid. If I had not read the books this would have been really confusing to me.

I find the story line in Dorne to be similar. None of those characters have been fleshed out at all and the whole thing seems rushed. The episode last night w/ Bronn and Jamie meeting the sand snakes was laughably bad. From the general outline of events down to the dialogue and fight scene. Nothing redeeming about it.

I thought the story in Winterfell had been going fine, but the events after the wedding were just too much and borderline uncalled for.

They decided that books 4 and 5 would not make for great TV (I personally didn't hate book 4 like most people did), but by combining the two books into essentially one season I think they have made some serious mistakes. The plot doesn't seem to be flowing properly and the changes that at first seemed like good ideas are starting to become problematic. I am beginning to worry that they will not be able to right the ship.

Also - I hate that the Greyjoys have essentially been cut from the show at this point. Who wouldn't want to watch a bunch of pirates running around Westeros?
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I read some of the backstory on Dorne. It might be the most interesting place in that world. It's too bad they didn't flesh it out more.
 
ZooCougar said:
I read some of the backstory on Dorne. It might be the most interesting place in that world. It's too bad they didn't flesh it out more.
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I agree with you, and I really thought the show was going to do a good job with this considering how awesome Oberyn was last season. I think one of the problems is that a lot of people who read the books will complain about book 4 because of the chapters that take place in Dorne. The show runners attempted to stream line this by removing several characters and plot lines. In my opinion they cut the wrong ones, and have not spent enough time w/ the characters they left in. Maybe the last 4 episodes will correct this.
 
The Young Griff was a plot arc that works in a book and would be utterly forgettable in the show. I am disappointed that the Iron Islands didn't make the cut, and the show writers have some backfilling to do because the Iron Islands are kind of important.

The Internet has completely jumped the shark this week with its reaction to the Ramsey/Sansa scene. In this episode, Arya convinces a 13 year oldish girl to kill herself and two major characters are captured into slavery, but the last scene, where it is not completely clear that Sansa is not playing Ramsey, is the one that has the Internet up in arms. Frankly, the most inflammatory plotline is the dual thread gay-bashing/rant against religion undertone of the events in Kings Landing, but everyone focuses on Sansa.
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
The Young Griff was a plot arc that works in a book and would be utterly forgettable in the show. I am disappointed that the Iron Islands didn't make the cut, and the show writers have some backfilling to do because the Iron Islands are kind of important.

The Internet has completely jumped the shark this week with its reaction to the Ramsey/Sansa scene. In this episode, Arya convinces a 13 year oldish girl to kill herself and two major characters are captured into slavery, but the last scene, where it is not completely clear that Sansa is not playing Ramsey, is the one that has the Internet up in arms. Frankly, the most inflammatory plotline is the dual thread gay-bashing/rant against religion undertone of the events in Kings Landing, but everyone focuses on Sansa.
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I think this gets the most grief because it is not part of the original story so, the show runners chose it. It's not like their haven't been a dozen or more rape scenes in the show so far. The rebellion at Krasters Keep was a watch one time only event. Even the early Dany/Drogo scenes were rather cringe worthy, so I don't think this scene is all that much worse unless you see a replay of the Ramsey/Theon dynamic.

In that case I might employ the Breaking Bad Walt Jr. Contingency and use the fast forward button.
 
SubbaBub said:
I think this gets the most grief because it is not part of the original story so, the show runners chose it. It's not like their haven't been a dozen or more rape scenes in the show so far. The rebellion at Krasters Keep was a watch one time only event. Even the early Dany/Drogo scenes were rather cringe worthy, so I don't think this scene is all that much worse unless you see a replay of the Ramsey/Theon dynamic.

In that case I might employ the Breaking Bad Walt Jr. Contingency and use the fast forward button.
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And of all the rape scenes, this one is the most layered, because Sansa is in that room of her own accord, unlike any of the other women that have found themselves in similar situations. Furthermore, Sansa is fully prepared to have all the Boltons killed when the time is right. Basically, Baelish's move in Kings Landing was the last straw for the Boltons. They don't have a chance of surviving now.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
And of all the rape scenes, this one is the most layered, because Sansa is in that room of her own accord, unlike any of the other women that have found themselves in similar situations. Furthermore, Sansa is fully prepared to have all the Boltons killed when the time is right. Basically, Baelish's move in Kings Landing was the last straw for the Boltons. They don't have a chance of surviving now.
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Which is why the creative choice stinks. We've already seen Sansa submit to a new husband from a family that killed her family members. She could have very easily controlled the room with Ramsey. Instead we get more victim Sansa and it's tedious storytelling.

If they were going to bother with a new arc for her, why not make one instead of replaying one from the first two seasons.
 
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SubbaBub said:
Which is why the creative choice stinks. We've already seen Sansa submit to a new husband from a family that killed her family members. She could have very easily controlled the room with Ramsey. Instead we get more victim Sansa and it's tedious storytelling.

If they were going to bother with a new arc for her, why not make one instead of replaying one from the first two seasons.
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Any heroine response by Sansa blows the plan and is completely unrealistic. Sansa and Baelish laid out their plan in the crypt. They are biding their time. Once Sansa put herself in that room, her choices narrowed for what would happen that night. I am a little surprised she didn't order Theon out. Other than that, I don't think there was much she could do. Is she going to kill Ramsay? Scream for help? Now, if it gets bad enough she may light the candle, at which point Ramsay likely gets filleted. I think Stannis arrives in the next episode or two, and somehow Brienne enters the fray at the same time.

I also think the reality of those situations are that the woman is trapped, and putting up a fight that will likely result in serious injury is more for the benefit of others than it is for the victim.

Joffrey's reign of terror was much worse. Bolton can not kill Sansa under any circumstances, whereas Joffrey could without consequences.
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
Any heroine response by Sansa blows the plan and is completely unrealistic. Sansa and Baelish laid out their plan in the crypt. They are biding their time. Once Sansa put herself in that room, her choices narrowed for what would happen that night. I am a little surprised she didn't order Theon out. Other than that, I don't think there was much she could do. Is she going to kill Ramsay? Scream for help? Now, if it gets bad enough she may light the candle, at which point Ramsay likely gets filleted. I think Stannis arrives in the next episode or two, and somehow Brienne enters the fray at the same time.

I also think the reality of those situations are that the woman is trapped, and putting up a fight that will likely result in serious injury is more for the benefit of others than it is for the victim.

Joffrey's reign of terror was much worse. Bolton can not kill Sansa under any circumstances, whereas Joffrey could without consequences.
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I would have liked to see any of the following:

Sansa be more assertive in the martial bed, as she knew that was following the wedding.

Sansa ordering Theon out of the room, asserting her authority as the rightful heir of winterfell.

Sansa ordering the dismissal of the kennel girl asserting her role as Ramsey's wife.

Maybe continuing victim Sansa is part of the plan, but I don't see how that works for her waiting for Littlefinger. He flat told her to take her own revenge and I thought the bath scene was the start of that. The bed scene just regressed that arc.

The whole thing reminds me of the Anikin Skywalker mess. Annoying little brat becomes something else in a half a second with no transition and no reason to care about him when it happens.

Angry Sansa, Vengeful Sansa, or Desperate Sansa, whichever one suddenly shows up isn't going to be worth the pain of waiting for it.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Any heroine response by Sansa blows the plan and is completely unrealistic. Sansa and Baelish laid out their plan in the crypt. They are biding their time. Once Sansa put herself in that room, her choices narrowed for what would happen that night. I am a little surprised she didn't order Theon out. Other than that, I don't think there was much she could do. Is she going to kill Ramsay? Scream for help? Now, if it gets bad enough she may light the candle, at which point Ramsay likely gets filleted. I think Stannis arrives in the next episode or two, and somehow Brienne enters the fray at the same time.
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I assume part of the plan was not that Sansa would be raped. Yes, I am sure that she and Littlefinger understood that she would likely have to consummate the marriage, but I don't think either realized how sadistic he was. I am sure Sansa didn't think Theon would be watching when this happened.

The writers did not have to do this. Theon could have stopped Ramsay. Sansa could have continued w/ her character development and manipulated Ramsay - you know play along w/ his weird games and eventually start to control him like Littlefinger suggested. It seemed that based on the tub scene w/ Myranda she was finally tired of taking peoples crap. Or Sansa could have blown up Littlefinger's plan and gone on the lam. She is close enough to the Wall at this point that she could have gone looking for Jon. Anything would have been better than what they did.

You say that Sansa didn't have many options, but that is because of what the writers have done to her story. In my opinion they handled this pretty poorly- it's played out & lazy. It will probably result in someone "saving" Sansa instead of her taking control for the first time in her life. This is why some people are upset about where they decided to take the story.

I guess we will have to see how they start to resolve this next week.
 
Penfield said:
I assume part of the plan was not that Sansa would be raped. Yes, I am sure that she and Littlefinger understood that she would likely have to consummate the marriage, but I don't think either realized how sadistic he was. I am sure Sansa didn't think Theon would be watching when this happened.

The writers did not have to do this. Theon could have stopped Ramsay. Sansa could have continued w/ her character development and manipulated Ramsay - you know play along w/ his weird games and eventually start to control him like Littlefinger suggested. It seemed that based on the tub scene w/ Myranda she was finally tired of taking peoples crap. Or Sansa could have blown up Littlefinger's plan and gone on the lam. She is close enough to the Wall at this point that she could have gone looking for Jon. Anything would have been better than what they did.

You say that Sansa didn't have many options, but that is because of what the writers have done to her story. In my opinion they handled this pretty poorly- it's played out & lazy. It will probably result in someone "saving" Sansa instead of her taking control for the first time in her life. This is why some people are upset about where they decided to take the story.

I guess we will have to see how they start to resolve this next week.
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Certainly Clay Buchholz could have intervened instead of standing there watching.
 
Excalibur said:
First, I had to snicker at the suggestion of a "frontal" confrontation given that Ramsay opted otherwise . . .

Anyway, if you take each story arc and rate it as better/worse than the books, I would say this:

1) The Wall/Jon Snow/Stannis -- Somewhat better in the show. The actors in Jon and Stannis' roles are shining here.
2) Cersei/Margery/Faith Militant -- A wash. Cersei thinking that she's wiser than she really is comes across better in the show, but the rise of the Faith Militant is not given sufficient attention and background.
3) Arya -- Good in both. The show has the potential to be better if they don't rush.
4) Sansa/Petyr/Boltons -- Better in the show. The books were needlessly complicated here.
5) Danaerys -- Better in the show, but not great in either. Killing Barristan Selmy did nothing to advance the story.
6) Dorne -- Way, way worse in the show. While the idea of the sand snakes is similar to that in the books, the execution is awful in the show, and adding Bron and Jaime didn't fix anything.
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I agree for the most part but you left out Tyrion. He is the best character in the show and the books. At this point I can deal with the crappy Sand Snakes/Dorne plotline as long as they give plenty of time to Tyrion.
 
I'm surprised to see the complaints at the level of saying things like "show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned". Each season has been some of the best told storytelling I've ever watched on television. Last season was insane. You get a few slower episodes to start the season and people want heads on stakes? Geez.
 
.-.
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