Game of Thrones - Season 5

[SubbaBub]

And of all the rape scenes, this one is the most layered, because Sansa is in that room of her own accord, unlike any of the other women that have found themselves in similar situations. Furthermore, Sansa is fully prepared to have all the Boltons killed when the time is right. Basically, Baelish's move in Kings Landing was the last straw for the Boltons. They don't have a chance of surviving now.

Which is why the creative choice stinks. We've already seen Sansa submit to a new husband from a family that killed her family members. She could have very easily controlled the room with Ramsey. Instead we get more victim Sansa and it's tedious storytelling.

If they were going to bother with a new arc for her, why not make one instead of replaying one from the first two seasons.

 

[August_West]

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Which is why the creative choice stinks. We've already seen Sansa submit to a new husband from a family that killed her family members. She could have very easily controlled the room with Ramsey. Instead we get more victim Sansa and it's tedious storytelling.

If they were going to bother with a new arc for her, why not make one instead of replaying one from the first two seasons.

Any heroine response by Sansa blows the plan and is completely unrealistic. Sansa and Baelish laid out their plan in the crypt. They are biding their time. Once Sansa put herself in that room, her choices narrowed for what would happen that night. I am a little surprised she didn't order Theon out. Other than that, I don't think there was much she could do. Is she going to kill Ramsay? Scream for help? Now, if it gets bad enough she may light the candle, at which point Ramsay likely gets filleted. I think Stannis arrives in the next episode or two, and somehow Brienne enters the fray at the same time.

I also think the reality of those situations are that the woman is trapped, and putting up a fight that will likely result in serious injury is more for the benefit of others than it is for the victim.

Joffrey's reign of terror was much worse. Bolton can not kill Sansa under any circumstances, whereas Joffrey could without consequences.

 

[John]

Margaery Tyrell - most hittable on GOT?

Yes, oh my yes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mar...H_sATY_YDYDA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1896&bih=806

 

[SubbaBub]

Any heroine response by Sansa blows the plan and is completely unrealistic. Sansa and Baelish laid out their plan in the crypt. They are biding their time. Once Sansa put herself in that room, her choices narrowed for what would happen that night. I am a little surprised she didn't order Theon out. Other than that, I don't think there was much she could do. Is she going to kill Ramsay? Scream for help? Now, if it gets bad enough she may light the candle, at which point Ramsay likely gets filleted. I think Stannis arrives in the next episode or two, and somehow Brienne enters the fray at the same time.

I also think the reality of those situations are that the woman is trapped, and putting up a fight that will likely result in serious injury is more for the benefit of others than it is for the victim.

Joffrey's reign of terror was much worse. Bolton can not kill Sansa under any circumstances, whereas Joffrey could without consequences.

I would have liked to see any of the following:

Sansa be more assertive in the martial bed, as she knew that was following the wedding.

Sansa ordering Theon out of the room, asserting her authority as the rightful heir of winterfell.

Sansa ordering the dismissal of the kennel girl asserting her role as Ramsey's wife.

Maybe continuing victim Sansa is part of the plan, but I don't see how that works for her waiting for Littlefinger. He flat told her to take her own revenge and I thought the bath scene was the start of that. The bed scene just regressed that arc.

The whole thing reminds me of the Anikin Skywalker mess. Annoying little brat becomes something else in a half a second with no transition and no reason to care about him when it happens.

Angry Sansa, Vengeful Sansa, or Desperate Sansa, whichever one suddenly shows up isn't going to be worth the pain of waiting for it.

 

[Penfield]

Any heroine response by Sansa blows the plan and is completely unrealistic. Sansa and Baelish laid out their plan in the crypt. They are biding their time. Once Sansa put herself in that room, her choices narrowed for what would happen that night. I am a little surprised she didn't order Theon out. Other than that, I don't think there was much she could do. Is she going to kill Ramsay? Scream for help? Now, if it gets bad enough she may light the candle, at which point Ramsay likely gets filleted. I think Stannis arrives in the next episode or two, and somehow Brienne enters the fray at the same time.

I assume part of the plan was not that Sansa would be raped. Yes, I am sure that she and Littlefinger understood that she would likely have to consummate the marriage, but I don't think either realized how sadistic he was. I am sure Sansa didn't think Theon would be watching when this happened.

The writers did not have to do this. Theon could have stopped Ramsay. Sansa could have continued w/ her character development and manipulated Ramsay - you know play along w/ his weird games and eventually start to control him like Littlefinger suggested. It seemed that based on the tub scene w/ Myranda she was finally tired of taking peoples crap. Or Sansa could have blown up Littlefinger's plan and gone on the lam. She is close enough to the Wall at this point that she could have gone looking for Jon. Anything would have been better than what they did.

You say that Sansa didn't have many options, but that is because of what the writers have done to her story. In my opinion they handled this pretty poorly- it's played out & lazy. It will probably result in someone "saving" Sansa instead of her taking control for the first time in her life. This is why some people are upset about where they decided to take the story.

I guess we will have to see how they start to resolve this next week.

 

[August_West]

I assume part of the plan was not that Sansa would be raped. Yes, I am sure that she and Littlefinger understood that she would likely have to consummate the marriage, but I don't think either realized how sadistic he was. I am sure Sansa didn't think Theon would be watching when this happened.

The writers did not have to do this. Theon could have stopped Ramsay. Sansa could have continued w/ her character development and manipulated Ramsay - you know play along w/ his weird games and eventually start to control him like Littlefinger suggested. It seemed that based on the tub scene w/ Myranda she was finally tired of taking peoples crap. Or Sansa could have blown up Littlefinger's plan and gone on the lam. She is close enough to the Wall at this point that she could have gone looking for Jon. Anything would have been better than what they did.

You say that Sansa didn't have many options, but that is because of what the writers have done to her story. In my opinion they handled this pretty poorly- it's played out & lazy. It will probably result in someone "saving" Sansa instead of her taking control for the first time in her life. This is why some people are upset about where they decided to take the story.

I guess we will have to see how they start to resolve this next week.

Certainly Clay Buchholz could have intervened instead of standing there watching.

 

[Excalibur]

Certainly Clay Buchholz could have intervened instead of standing there watching.

In the books (even though it's not Sansa) he does, um, intervene . . .

 

[CTGoonie]

First, I had to snicker at the suggestion of a "frontal" confrontation given that Ramsay opted otherwise . . .

Anyway, if you take each story arc and rate it as better/worse than the books, I would say this:

1) The Wall/Jon Snow/Stannis -- Somewhat better in the show. The actors in Jon and Stannis' roles are shining here.
2) Cersei/Margery/Faith Militant -- A wash. Cersei thinking that she's wiser than she really is comes across better in the show, but the rise of the Faith Militant is not given sufficient attention and background.
3) Arya -- Good in both. The show has the potential to be better if they don't rush.
4) Sansa/Petyr/Boltons -- Better in the show. The books were needlessly complicated here.
5) Danaerys -- Better in the show, but not great in either. Killing Barristan Selmy did nothing to advance the story.
6) Dorne -- Way, way worse in the show. While the idea of the sand snakes is similar to that in the books, the execution is awful in the show, and adding Bron and Jaime didn't fix anything.

I agree for the most part but you left out Tyrion. He is the best character in the show and the books. At this point I can deal with the crappy Sand Snakes/Dorne plotline as long as they give plenty of time to Tyrion.

 

[Deepster]

I'm surprised to see the complaints at the level of saying things like "show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned". Each season has been some of the best told storytelling I've ever watched on television. Last season was insane. You get a few slower episodes to start the season and people want heads on stakes? Geez.

 

[August_West]

I'm surprised to see the complaints at the level of saying things like "show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned". Each season has been some of the best told storytelling I've ever watched on television. Last season was insane. You get a few slower episodes to start the season and people want heads on stakes? Geez.

They still have mucho good will credit with me..... but they used up an awful lot of it with LOLSand snakes.

 

[UConnTrumbull]

I'm surprised to see the complaints at the level of saying things like "show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned". Each season has been some of the best told storytelling I've ever watched on television. Last season was insane. You get a few slower episodes to start the season and people want heads on stakes? Geez.

This season was always going to be extremely difficult to satisfy both book readers and tv-only viewers. It's not really a surprise given that this season is taking from both book 4 and 5. There's just too much plot to cover in 10 episodes; and it's really like 5/6 episodes for every major character. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon aren't even in book 4. But I'm expecting this season to end with a BANG!

 

[businesslawyer]

I'm surprised to see the complaints at the level of saying things like "show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned". Each season has been some of the best told storytelling I've ever watched on television. Last season was insane. You get a few slower episodes to start the season and people want heads on stakes? Geez.

You're really surprised? On a board that didn't think Edsall was progressing fast enough and still isn't sure that KO can coach?

 

[Penfield]

I'm surprised to see the complaints at the level of saying things like "show runners have just about used up all of the good will they earned". Each season has been some of the best told storytelling I've ever watched on television. Last season was insane. You get a few slower episodes to start the season and people want heads on stakes? Geez.

Maybe it was a bit of an overreaction based on how much I hated the last episode, but I really think this season in general has been done poorly. We are six episodes in, and the problem is not that the plot is slow it's that the writing is bad.

I have to remind myself that after this season I have no idea what is going to happen and for all I know they are just trying to get through all this stuff (books 4 & 5) as fast as possible to get to some better plot lines.

 

[Scalito]

I dont want Sansa to be a badass. She is pathetic.
Ned was playing the game pretty well to that point and was getting out of the city. He would've too but spoiled brat Sansa didnt want to leave kings landing and her shot at marrying Joffrey so she spilled the beans on Neds plan to leave Kings landing to Cersei. Screw Sansa. She pretty much amounts to a blood traitor.

Sansa was just a child. I mean, I hated her then too, but man can you hold a grudge! Little girl sees daddy's head whacked off, suffers Joffrey's depredations, loses her family . . . and you're still mad at her? Geez. Outside of Arya, Sansa's become one of my favorite characters in the later books to read. She's done some quick on-the-job learning.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Sansa does lie to protect her aunt's murderer. Thhe same aunt that took a huge risk in taking Sansa in the first place.

 

[Penfield]

Same aunt that turned out to be a psycho and threatened to kill her

 

[August_West]

Sansa was just a child. I mean, I hated her then too, but man can you hold a grudge! Little girl sees daddy's head whacked off, suffers Joffrey's depredations, loses her family . . . and you're still mad at her? Geez. Outside of Arya, Sansa's become one of my favorite characters in the later books to read. She's done some quick on-the-job learning.

Im still butthurt over Sansa, yes. In a world that puts family above all else, Sansa has done nothing but make self serving decisions every step of the way.
She even sold out Arya and that kid on the way to Kings landing.
It must've stunk seeing her Dad's head chopped off knowing she is pretty much the sole reason for it. It must've stunk knowing Rob and her mom got killed at the Twins because of her selfishness in having to marry Joffrey above all other concerns. Must stink thinking Bran and Rickon are dead because of her. You can pretty much trace the whole war of the 5 kings back to her selfishness.

Rob and John Snow were not much older than Sansa, Arya and Bran younger. All of them put family first. May the many faced god provide Sansa with a (not so swift) death

Yeahm I hold a grudge.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Same aunt that turned out to be a psycho and threatened to kill her

After Sansa sucked face with her uncle. It's complicated.

 

[Scalito]

Im still butthurt over Sansa, yes. In a world that puts family above all else, Sansa has done nothing but make self serving decisions every step of the way.
She even sold out Arya and that kid on the way to Kings landing.
It must've stunk seeing her Dad's head chopped off knowing she is pretty much the sole reason for it. It must've stunk knowing Rob and her mom got killed at the Twins because of her selfishness in having to marry Joffrey above all other concerns. Must stink thinking Bran and Rickon are dead because of her. You can pretty much trace the whole war of the 5 kings back to her selfishness.

Rob and John Snow were not much older than Sansa, Arya and Bran younger. All of them put family first. May the many faced god provide Sansa with a (not so swift) death

Yeahm I hold a grudge.

Sansa is in many ways the most believable redemptive character in a series filled with former villains turned sympathetic victim or even fan favorite. When you're reading a book from child killers' points of view, it's easy to cheer for Jaime One-Hand to find his honor or Reek to man-up and become Theon No-D-ck. But of all the transgressions in the early books, being a naive brat, when you're a pre-pubescent beauty and daughter of a powerful family, is rather low on my list of crimes and the most likely to be overcome should events demand it.

I like Sansa's story arc. She'll never be as fearless and deadly as my favorite character---Arya---but she has the makings to be one of the most dangerous GOT players. She has (1) Petyr Baelish as her tutor, (2) the lineage Baelish lacks in a world where family name and power are intertwined, and (3) she's been gorged on the bitterness of failure wrought by too much trust and naivety. If everything falls into place, as it likely will for the eldest daughter of the most important family in the series, Sansa could be the veiled glove that moves Arya around the gameboard in the most efficacious and beneficial manner possible for Stark revenge and Stark power.

I think we agree on one thing---Ned gets unfairly beaten up for "playing the game" poorly in my opinion. It's not a crime to be honorable--it's a good thing we're supposed to cheer for; it's in fact why fans cheer for his kids more than perfectly sweet and blameless Myrcella and Tommen---and Ned was operating in a different world. In his world, the King was the King and the princes and princess were the King's children. He therefore wasn't trying to secure anything. He was trying to rule well on behalf of a bad king and the kingdom's people. And when the veil was removed, by his own actions for those who forget, he sought to secure the throne for the true heir. About the only dumb thing he did was confront Cersei, to give her a chance to flee, and even that attempted bit of mercy wouldn't have proven fatal if Sansa hadn't tattled.

 

[Scalito]

Same aunt that turned out to be a psycho and threatened to kill her

Threatened? More like tried.

I never liked Littlefinger, for all his admirable scheming, until he tossed that crazy b-tch from the Eyrie after twisting the emotional knife in her back. The mean, and yet cooly delivered quip about only ever loving Cat, made up a bit for his part in Ned's downfall.

 

[August_West]

After Sansa sucked face with her uncle. It's complicated.

^^ This just made me spit coffee at my desk. A+

Sansa is in many ways the most believable redemptive character in a series filled with former villains turned sympathetic victim or even fan favorite. When you're reading a book from child killers' points of view, it's easy to cheer for Jaime One-Hand to find his honor or Reek to man-up and become Theon No-D-ck. But of all the transgressions in the early books, being a naive brat, when you're a pre-pubescent beauty and daughter of a powerful family, is rather low on my list of crimes and the most likely to be overcome should events demand it.

I like Sansa's story arc. She'll never be as fearless and deadly as my favorite character---Arya---but she has the makings to be one of the most dangerous GOT players. She has (1) Petyr Baelish as her tutor, (2) the lineage Baelish lacks in a world where family name and power are intertwined, and (3) she's been gorged on the bitterness of failure wrought by too much trust and naivety. If everything falls into place, as it likely will for the eldest daughter of the most important family in the series, Sansa could be the veiled glove that moves Arya around the gameboard in the most efficacious and beneficial manner possible for Stark revenge and Stark power.

I think we agree on one thing---Ned gets unfairly beaten up for "playing the game" poorly in my opinion. It's not a crime to be honorable--it's a good thing we're supposed to cheer for; it's in fact why fans cheer for his kids more than perfectly sweet and blameless Myrcella and Tommen---and Ned was operating in a different world. In his world, the King was the King and the princes and princess were the King's children. He therefore wasn't trying to secure anything. He was trying to rule well on behalf of a bad king and the kingdom's people. And when the veil was removed, by his own actions for those who forget, he sought to secure the throne for the true heir. About the only dumb thing he did was confront Cersei, to give her a chance to flee, and even that attempted bit of mercy wouldn't have proven fatal if Sansa hadn't tattled.

I don't like the way your logical, well reasoned facts get in the way of my knee jerk, over emotional meltdowns about the hypergamous ginger jerk.

Don't make me put you on ignore. I like your posts too much.

 

[Penfield]

Threatened? More like tried.

I never liked Littlefinger, for all his admirable scheming, until he tossed that crazy b-tch from the Eyrie after twisting the emotional knife in her back. The mean, and yet cooly delivered quip about only ever loving Cat, made up a bit for his part in Ned's downfall.

That was interesting because on the one hand Littlefinger saved Sansa's life, but at the same time you realize he wasn't just a schemer but also a seriously evil dude. Makes you wonder if he ever considers Sansa to be anything more than a pawn in his game.

 

[Penfield]

If anyone is interested I thought this article did a pretty good job of summing up why so many people (particularly book readers) were upset with the Sansa story arc and wedding night scene. Contains Book Spoilers -

http://grantland.com/hollywood-pros...he-bolton-stark-alliance-and-the-sand-snakes/

 

[Scalito]

That was interesting because on the one hand Littlefinger saved Sansa's life, but at the same time you realize he wasn't just a schemer but also a seriously evil dude. Makes you wonder if he ever considers Sansa to be anything more than a pawn in his game.

I am certain he cares more about Sansa than anyone else in the world, other than himself of course, which means something even for a scheming bast-rd like him. He basically has transferred his obsession for Cat, an obsession which made him act stupidly the once and only time in his entire life when he challenged Ned's brother to a duel for Cat's hand, to Sansa. He might even think it is love.

Doesn't mean he puts her interests ahead of his own, but there is something there. Even the most evil villains in history think they're good people and usually have some family they're good to because they're theirs. I see Sansa fulfiling that role/need for Littlefinger.