OT: Florida State to sue ACC over GOR

[Kolumbo]

Thank you. I am familiar with the term.

Your quote was that "no one voted for FSU". My comment was that I didn't think that particularly mattered, but if you gave it any credence at all, it would tend to weaken its claim as a sovereign entity, essentially saying it was more of a "quasi private entity."

Gotcha. But FSU is a major state university, sea grant, space grant, all that fun stuff. I just feel like at some point, if a contract becomes too unfavorable, there has to be remedies. No one can predict the future and if the decision makers failed so badly at creating the terms, a state should have remedies to at least give it a chance if not make it whole. FSU was undefeated and snubbed. FSU performed its side of the contract. The ACC and espn seem to be underperforming their side.

 

[CL82]

Gotcha. But FSU is a major state university, sea grant, space grant, all that fun stuff. I just feel like at some point, if a contract becomes too unfavorable, there has to be remedies. No one can predict the future and if the decision makers failed so badly at creating the terms, a state should have remedies to at least give it a chance if not make it whole. FSU was undefeated and snubbed. FSU performed its side of the contract. The ACC and espn seem to be underperforming their side.

You've been very consistent with this viewpoint. I get you are being driven by a sense of "fairness." I would just note that in a situation where the two parties to the contract have divergent interests to the extent you "rewrite the contract" to make it less disavantageous to one party you are making it more disadvantageous to the other party.

The reason why you have contracts is to promote certainty among the parties. It provides a framework so that everyone understands what their obligations and benefits are. If a single party gets to abandon it because they see a better opportunity elsewhere than it undercuts the fundamental purpose of having a contract in the first place.

FSU has the opportunity to leave the conference. It comes at specific costs, which it agreed to at the time of signing. That is the "remedy" for FSU, perhaps wrongly, believing it can do better elsewhere.

In any event, we shall see what the courts decide on this.

 

[Waquoit]

I just feel like at some point, if a contract becomes too unfavorable, there has to be remedies...FSU performed its side of the contract. The ACC and espn seem to be underperforming their side.

That's not how the world works. And in this case, how has the contract become too unfavorable to FSU? And how is the ACC and ESPN underperforming? Have they missed any payments?

 

[uconndogs]

Something about bringing sovereign immunity and crown immunity into the discussion about conference realignment just reinforces to me exactly how duck** up college athletics has become.

 

[Kolumbo]

That's not how the world works. And in this case, how has the contract become too unfavorable to FSU? And how is the ACC and ESPN underperforming? Have they missed any payments?

FSU performed the way an elite football program should perform and yet did not make the playoff. It is making less money than your Rutgerses and Indianas. In the real world, you get what you pay for, but not in FSU's case. Could espn and the ACC fix the problem by increasing payouts, or is the ACC simply not worth it on the media side? Everyone says espn has no reason to increase payouts because they have FSU locked in at a lower rate. So is espn keeping the extra profits? That's how I see it as underperforming and unfavorable to one side. In business there are ways to terminate or annul contracts especially when they don't want to be partners anymore or their costs change drastically. I get it, GOR. It was a very bad deal. All of this CR and yet the 15 ACC programs are prevented from going to the market.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Retired Bob quick to comment. This guy always seems to have sunshine for west coast stuff.

Agreed - some sort of bias it seems. If west coast football was so valuable, then why did the Pac break up? SMH.

 

[Exit 4]

Agreed - some sort of bias it seems. If west coast football was so valuable, then why did the Pac break up? SMH.

Yeah....well on the matter of the PAC, its been reported and I have been told by others that ESPN offered $30 per team per annum which apparently insulted the conf office because they wanted at least $50 to start the discussion. Being that far apart and with some big egos at the table, ESPN exited the process and then as we all know, no one else stepped up anywhere close. Yeah, the P12 schools have value...value on par with the ACC...back when it had USC/UCLA/Wash/Ore. The P12 died over hubris. The reborn P12 will have a much lower valuation....closer to the American or maybe less.

 

[HuskyHawk]

FSU performed the way an elite football program should perform and yet did not make the playoff. It is making less money than your Rutgerses and Indianas. In the real world, you get what you pay for, but not in FSU's case. Could espn and the ACC fix the problem by increasing payouts, or is the ACC simply not worth it on the media side? Everyone says espn has no reason to increase payouts because they have FSU locked in at a lower rate. So is espn keeping the extra profits? That's how I see it as underperforming and unfavorable to one side. In business there are ways to terminate or annul contracts especially when they don't want to be partners anymore or their costs change drastically. I get it, GOR. It was a very bad deal. All of this CR and yet the 15 ACC programs are prevented from going to the market.

I don't really get this take. It's a contract issue. "Performance" of the contract by the ACC and it's media partners means broadcasting the games and paying FSU. Performance by FSU means playing the games and allowing the broadcast.

I get that they feel slighted by making less than Indiana. I feel slighted that I make less than a lot of athletes and celebs who are as dumb as a bag of hammers. If FSU had been in the SEC or B1G they probably wouldn't have been undefeated. Should they have made the playoff anyway? Yes, like TCU the year before. But that problem doesn't exist anymore. It's been solved.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Yeah....well on the matter of the PAC, its been reported and I have been told by others that ESPN offered $30 per team per annum which apparently insulted the conf office because they wanted at least $50 to start the discussion. Being that far apart and with some big egos at the table, ESPN exited the process and then as we all know, no one else stepped up anywhere close. Yeah, the P12 schools have value...value on par with the ACC...back when it had USC/UCLA/Wash/Ore. The P12 died over hubris. The reborn P12 will have a much lower valuation....closer to the American or maybe less.

Don't disagree, but my point was poorly conveyed as I think the Pac's value was overwhelming from USC, UCLA, WA, and OR and after that very slim pickings. Once those four are taken out, there's not much left out west.

 

[Exit 4]

Don't disagree, but my point was poorly conveyed as I think the Pac's value was overwhelming from USC, UCLA, WA, and OR and after that very slim pickings. Once those four are taken out, there's not much left out west.

Yep.

A lot of crazy takes out there today thinking they are going to build up something that is neck and neck with the ACC for example or not far behind the ACC. The ACC is paying out 30M+.....this rebuilt P12 will be more like $7 to 12M.

 

[Kolumbo]

I don't really get this take. It's a contract issue. "Performance" of the contract by the ACC and it's media partners means broadcasting the games and paying FSU. Performance by FSU means playing the games and allowing the broadcast.

I get that they feel slighted by making less than Indiana. I feel slighted that I make less than a lot of athletes and celebs who are as dumb as a bag of hammers. If FSU had been in the SEC or B1G they probably wouldn't have been undefeated. Should they have made the playoff anyway? Yes, like TCU the year before. But that problem doesn't exist anymore. It's been solved.

That's not really what "performance" means unless you enter a contract with both sides agreeing to do the bare minimum required. When the contracts were signed there were 5 "Power" conferences and I'm sure the expectations were that both sides would perform as such. FSU did. The ACC and espn have not. If they had, the ACC would still be a Power conference.

 

[Zissou]

That's not really what "performance" means unless you enter a contract with both sides agreeing to do the bare minimum required. When the contracts were signed there were 5 "Power" conferences and I'm sure the expectations were that both sides would perform as such. FSU did. The ACC and espn have not. If they had, the ACC would still be a Power conference.

I doubt there were any performance metrics in the contract that the ACC or ESPN missed.

It’s a contract, so now both sides will test it legally. ACC appears to have a better position but we’ll see, that’s why they play the games.

 

[CJasmer]

I doubt there were any performance metrics in the contract that the ACC or ESPN missed.

It’s a contract, so now both sides will test it legally. ACC appears to have a better position but we’ll see, that’s why they play the games.

If GOR ends with ESPN not renewing ACC contract in 2026 then ACC teams would owe approximately $145 million. If FSU, UNC, Clemson and UNC can get into either SEC or BIG then worth it to pay $145 million. If these teams cannot get into SEC and BIG then they will stay in ACC and ACC will negotiate on new TV contract. If those teams leave the ACC TV contract will drop significantly since the teams left do not have the Football TV audience of these 4 teams and become a league that has 0% chance to have more than the conference champion making CFP. I believe currently FSU and Clemson alone are 25% of the football TV audience for ACC.

 

[noeynox]

That's not really what "performance" means unless you enter a contract with both sides agreeing to do the bare minimum required. When the contracts were signed there were 5 "Power" conferences and I'm sure the expectations were that both sides would perform as such. FSU did. The ACC and espn have not. If they had, the ACC would still be a Power conference.

This is strange. How is the ACC NOT a power conference?

 

[HuskyHawk]

That's not really what "performance" means unless you enter a contract with both sides agreeing to do the bare minimum required. When the contracts were signed there were 5 "Power" conferences and I'm sure the expectations were that both sides would perform as such. FSU did. The ACC and espn have not. If they had, the ACC would still be a Power conference.

It is still a power conference. It won championships in 2013, 2016 and 2018. In that stretch the B1G has won two. The old Pac hasn't won one since 2004 (and that was vacated). The Big XII last won one in 2005. Note that the Pac and Big XII schools that have won in this century are all in the B1G or SEC now.

Looking at current lineups and schools that won a football NC in this century
SEC: 16 wins by 8 different schools
B1G: 5 wins by 3 schools (counting the vacated USC win and treating 2003 as split)
ACC: 4 wins by 3 schools
Big XII: zero wins.

The P2 is a revenue concept. In terms of actual football, the SEC is better than the field. If you could some "splits" for UCF, Oklahoma State, Miami, Missouri and Utah it gets slightly better for the field.

 

[noeynox]

It is still a power conference. It won championships in 2013, 2016 and 2018. In that stretch the B1G has won two. The old Pac hasn't won one since 2004 (and that was vacated). The Big XII last won one in 2005. Note that the Pac and Big XII schools that have won in this century are all in the B1G or SEC now.

Looking at current lineups and schools that won a football NC in this century
SEC: 16 wins by 8 different schools
B1G: 5 wins by 3 schools (counting the vacated USC win and treating 2003 as split)
ACC: 4 wins by 3 schools
Big XII: zero wins.

The P2 is a revenue concept. In terms of actual football, the SEC is better than the field. If you could some "splits" for UCF, Oklahoma State, Miami, Missouri and Utah it gets slightly better for the field.

Seems like the only metric he is going by is that the SEC and Big Ten pay their schools more. But Power/Autonomy status is an official designation. The PAC 12 had their's removed. Putting together a patchwork conference is going NOT to get them that back automatically.

 

[Kolumbo]

It is still a power conference. It won championships in 2013, 2016 and 2018. In that stretch the B1G has won two. The old Pac hasn't won one since 2004 (and that was vacated). The Big XII last won one in 2005. Note that the Pac and Big XII schools that have won in this century are all in the B1G or SEC now.

Looking at current lineups and schools that won a football NC in this century
SEC: 16 wins by 8 different schools
B1G: 5 wins by 3 schools (counting the vacated USC win and treating 2003 as split)
ACC: 4 wins by 3 schools
Big XII: zero wins.

The P2 is a revenue concept. In terms of actual football, the SEC is better than the field. If you could some "splits" for UCF, Oklahoma State, Miami, Missouri and Utah it gets slightly better for the field.

It's been posted with regularity on these boards that there is really a P2 today. Your best teams don't sue to get out if you are truly a Power conference.

It's too early but I think based on today's rankings the playoffs would include:
6 SEC
3 B1G
1 ACC
1 Big XII
1 MAC

 

[huskymedic]

 

[HuskyHawk]

Live look at FSU

 

[Kolumbo]

At this point, even if FSU were to somehow win, many believe neither B1G nor SEC would take FSU. So it seems FSU would still be stuck in the ACC. It could however leave the door open for others to leave. So maybe FSU's best bet is to say nevermind, we're good.

 

[UConnDan97]

At this point, even if FSU were to somehow win, many believe neither B1G nor SEC would take FSU. So it seems FSU would still be stuck in the ACC. It could however leave the door open for others to leave. So maybe FSU's best bet is to say nevermind, we're good.

Do we have any reason to believe that neither the B1G or the SEC will take them??

I can't imagine any scenario where I would enter into a multimillion dollar litigation as an athletic department without having kicked those tires in advance. It would make zero sense to me.

To me, it's more likely that they have a very strong sense of where their new home will be (almost certainly one of those two conferences) and after having received that information have begun fighting the legal and public war...

 

[UConnDan97]

I agree. I think FSU would be a lock for one of them but many people have said FSU is not wanted. I don't know, I'm just regurgitating sheet.

I hear you, and I agree that it's likely a large amount of sheet...

 

[Kolumbo]

Do we have any reason to believe that neither the B1G or the SEC will take them??

I can't imagine any scenario where I would enter into a multimillion dollar litigation as an athletic department without having kicked those tires in advance. It would make zero sense to me.

To me, it's more likely that they have a very strong sense of where their new home will be (almost certainly one of those two conferences) and after having received that information have begun fighting the legal and public war...

I agree. I think FSU would be a lock for one of them but many people have said FSU is not wanted. I don't know, I'm just regurgitating sheet.

edit: but there have been various reports suggesting FSU would not be invited under certain conditions.
"Neither the SEC or Big Ten are likely to pursue Florida State as a candidate for expansion if the school leaves the ACC and that conference survives, according to Action Network's Brett McMurphy."

College football expansion: SEC, Big Ten don't want Florida State, per report

The latest speculation around college football realignment as Florida State looks to get out of the ACC, but neither the SEC or the Big Ten appear to be interes

www.si.com

 

[UConnDan97]

I agree. I think FSU would be a lock for one of them but many people have said FSU is not wanted. I don't know, I'm just regurgitating sheet.

edit: but there have been various reports suggesting FSU would not be invited under certain conditions.
"Neither the SEC or Big Ten are likely to pursue Florida State as a candidate for expansion if the school leaves the ACC and that conference survives, according to Action Network's Brett McMurphy."

College football expansion: SEC, Big Ten don't want Florida State, per report

The latest speculation around college football realignment as Florida State looks to get out of the ACC, but neither the SEC or the Big Ten appear to be interes

www.si.com

I'll believe it when I see it...

 

[storrsroars]

Do we have any reason to believe that neither the B1G or the SEC will take them??

I can't imagine any scenario where I would enter into a multimillion dollar litigation as an athletic department without having kicked those tires in advance. It would make zero sense to me.

To me, it's more likely that they have a very strong sense of where their new home will be (almost certainly one of those two conferences) and after having received that information have begun fighting the legal and public war...

No AAU = no B1G. B1G wants UNC & UVA.

I have read multiple places that SEC members like 16 teams and feel no pressure to add.

 

[UConnDan97]

No AAU = no B1G. B1G wants UNC & UVA.

I have read multiple places that SEC members like 16 teams and feel no pressure to add.

That's an illusion. It's a convenient argument that the B1G has held onto, but there is no legal prerequisite to be AAU to enter...

 

[UConnDan97]

No AAU = no B1G. B1G wants UNC & UVA.

I have read multiple places that SEC members like 16 teams and feel no pressure to add.

By the way, Nebraska is not an AAU school to the best of my knowledge, so...

 

[HuskyHawk]

By the way, Nebraska is not an AAU school to the best of my knowledge, so...

They were when they were admitted.

 

[UConnDan97]

They were when they were admitted.

And weren't kicked out after losing it. In other words, there is no prerequisite. The B1G presidents loved the idea of it, I'm sure.

But they love money more...

 

[HuskyHawk]

And weren't kicked out after losing it. In other words, there is no prerequisite. The B1G presidents loved the idea of it, I'm sure.

But they love money more...

I'm not sure FSU does anything to bring them any money. But that aside, FSU has improved its academic reputation pretty dramatically over the last 10-15 years. So it would probably have some appeal. Still, no non AAU has gotten an invite. Most of the original Big Ten go way back in AAU, to 1900 or 1908.

I really don't think anybody but the big XII wants FSU or Clemson. They are better off in the ACC. I think they'll get P2 money when the top programs break away from these conferences. The B1G would like FSU once they get rid of Indiana, Purdue and Northwestern (from a football perspective).