OT: Florida State to sue ACC over GOR

[Kolumbo]

Discussion about ACC, SEC, ESPN and network coverage

"Why can't we have a forking Finebaum Show?"

Facing identity crisis, frustrated ACC members point the finger at TV coverage — or lack of it

Clemson coach Dabo Swinney once complained about the ACC Network's programming, according to sources, and asked, "Why can't we have a Finebaum Show?" Swinney's not the only ACC power asking about its national bite.

247sports.com

 

[Kolumbo]

Let's take the temperature in Chapel Hill

"I agree that adding Cuse and BC did nothing for the ACC. They are leeches (for lack of a better word, that’s kind of harsh) financially and probably hurt the overall perception of the conference."

Clemson and Florida St. Big 12 Bound?

Clemson and Florida St. Big 12 Bound?

247sports.com

 

[Kolumbo]

Yes the GOR has been discussed ad infinitum, but a very good summary nevertheless

"Their concern essentially boils down to an admission that the old rationale for assigning rights to a conference -- that the sum exceeds the individual parts -- is no longer true in an era where Florida State and Clemson could, theoretically, command far more on the open market today than they will receive from the ACC over the next 12 years."

'Like smoke coming from the Vatican': The history -- and future -- of the grant of rights

In the ACC, a grant-of-rights agreement appears to hold the key to future realignment. It has been highly secretive and much argued over. What exactly is it, and where did it start?

www.espn.com

 

[dayooper]

Let's take the temperature in Chapel Hill

"I agree that adding Cuse and BC did nothing for the ACC. They are leeches (for lack of a better word, that’s kind of harsh) financially and probably hurt the overall perception of the conference."

Clemson and Florida St. Big 12 Bound?

Clemson and Florida St. Big 12 Bound?

247sports.com

Lots of things hurt the conference. Having 4 schools in North Carolina, Miami playing by the rules when they entered the league, Clemson being up and down, FSU dropping a duece after Bowden retired, Cuse and BC doing less than nothing and allowing ND to use the ACC to keep its independence are all reasons for the ACC’s perception.

Even Maryland bolting for the Big10 was a blow to the ACC’s perception. But the biggest blow was signing everything over to ESPN without negotiating a conference channel. They were so eager to sign the GOR and be with ESPN for an eternity, they didn’t think everything through. They left so much on the table.

 

[CL82]

Let's take the temperature in Chapel Hill

"I agree that adding Cuse and BC did nothing for the ACC. They are leeches (for lack of a better word, that’s kind of harsh) financially and probably hurt the overall perception of the conference."

Clemson and Florida St. Big 12 Bound?

Clemson and Florida St. Big 12 Bound?

247sports.com

They are lamenting accusing BCU, Syracuse, Louisville and Pittsburgh:

They talk about the strategy of the move being "adding enormous markets" but they completely missed the point. The ACC rated big east teams expressly with the goal of destroying the big east conference. Those raids were part of an ESPN lead consolidation move of the major conferences that is still happening.

 

[Kolumbo]

Drink Up!!!
The case of the GOR has been solv-ed

The ACC members convene and hold a vote to dissolve the conference which, as I understand it, would eliminate the GOR and exit fees. All programs would then be free to move on with their lives. This results in a few possible scenarios for the former ACC members in a high stakes poker scenario:

1. Programs which vote to dissolve and get picked up by SEC, Big 12, B1G - they each put ~ $100,000,000 e.g. into the kitty
2. Programs which vote to dissolve but do not get picked up by the P3 - they each take an evenly split share out of the kitty
3. Programs which vote to not dissolve - they each are SOL and get bupkes

End Result

1. Programs who know they will get picked up win by only paying $100 mill to go P3
2. Programs who go along knowing they were destined to miss out on the big money but make a nice windfall from the kitty in the short term, lick their wounds, and form a new ACC
3. Programs who don't go along get nothing and hope to be invited to the new ACC

Who knows the numbers but let's say 8 programs go P3 - kitty = $800,000,000
5 vote yes but don't get picked up - they each take $160,000,000 out of the kitty
5 vote no and get nothing - this would include ND because they don't invite ND to the vote - no one like the SOB in the first place

Programs who know they won't get picked up have to pick between 2 and 3 risk dissolution without payment.
10 remaining regroup in New ACC and backfill. And who knows, even though the new ACC is lesser than the old, the new tv deal may not be so bad given the market.

 

[AllHusky]

Kolumbo

You give some serious thought on Conference Realignment! I'm kidding but not kidding, Consulting?

Your work between 8 and 9 last night was outstanding! Great reading, good mix of facts detail and conspiracy.

Kolumbos Konference Realignment Konsultancy.

 

[prankster]

Drink Up!!!
The case of the GOR has been solv-ed

The ACC members convene and hold a vote to dissolve the conference which, as I understand it, would eliminate the GOR and exit fees. All programs would then be free to move on with their lives. This results in a few possible scenarios for the former ACC members in a high stakes poker scenario:

1. Programs which vote to dissolve and get picked up by SEC, Big 12, B1G - they each put ~ $100,000,000 e.g. into the kitty
2. Programs which vote to dissolve but do not get picked up by the P3 - they each take an evenly split share out of the kitty
3. Programs which vote to not dissolve - they each are SOL and get bupkes

End Result

1. Programs who know they will get picked up win by only paying $100 mill to go P3
2. Programs who go along knowing they were destined to miss out on the big money but make a nice windfall from the kitty in the short term, lick their wounds, and form a new ACC
3. Programs who don't go along get nothing and hope to be invited to the new ACC

Who knows the numbers but let's say 8 programs go P3 - kitty = $800,000,000
5 vote yes but don't get picked up - they each take $160,000,000 out of the kitty
5 vote no and get nothing - this would include ND because they don't invite ND to the vote - no one like the SOB in the first place

Programs who know they won't get picked up have to pick between 2 and 3 risk dissolution without payment.
10 remaining regroup in New ACC and backfill. And who knows, even though the new ACC is lesser than the old, the new tv deal may not be so bad given the market.

View attachment 102532

If the case is, indeed, solv-ed, along lines you suggest....

What does "Phoenix-ACC" look like? Other universities join? Downstream shakeup among other conferences to make up for the ripple effect of their own defections?

There is a Netflix series coming out of this.

 

[AllHusky]

Ya gotta laugh, if you don't you cry.

As a long time CR student(studied it back in 80-81 getting Masters at UMass) it perplexes me that we are where we are, over and over and over. As Karaban said, "Push through". Might be the battle cry for 3 and 7!!

 

[billybud]

Things swirl a little differently now than they did in realignments of a decade ago.

Disney is going hard to the direct to consumer model. They are very interested in minimizing their exposure to the constant haggling with bundled carriers.

Although we still talk on about "markets", Disney and ESPN may be much more concerned with brand than market right now. Fox and B1g on the other hand are still more invested in the older model and markets do matter more to them.

Disney, in a direct to consumer model, knows people want to watch the marquee matches and big brands and will pay top dollar to watch them live. It is the only content that they will do that for in todays market.

 

[KryHavok]

They are lamenting accusing BCU, Syracuse, Louisville and Pittsburgh:


They talk about the strategy of the move being "adding enormous markets" but they completely missed the point. The ACC rated big east teams expressly with the goal of destroying the big east conference. Those raids were part of an ESPN lead consolidation move of the major conferences that is still happening.

Bwhahahahaha, they are complaining now, 12 years after Loserville was chosen over UConn for entry into the ACC because of its football "excellence" only to realize they royally screwed up ?!?! They are makers of their own doom. Only thing I hate more than Notre Dame is the ACC.

 

[billybud]

I wonder...if Louisville, Syracuse, BC had gone to the Big 12 and UConn to the ACC....

How would things be today ?

Cuse and BC have had the kind of experience in the ACC that UConn had in the AAC.

Louisville did go to the AAC from the BE for one year...had a 12-1 year and went to the ACC. And last year was the Cards' first double digit win season in the ACC...a decade to make it.

 

[KryHavok]

I wonder...if Louisville, Syracuse, BC had gone to the Big 12 and UConn to the ACC....

How would things be today ?

Cuse and BC have had the kind of experience in the ACC that UConn had in the AAC.

Louisville did go to the AAC from the BE for one year...had a 12-1 year and went to the ACC. And last year was the Cards' first double digit win season in the ACC...a decade to make it.

I would argue that UConn had a better overall experience in the AAC than BCuse(less) have had in the ACC in that at least UConn had major championships outside of football for mens and womens teams, but football wise I get your point. Loserville may have been better off in the B12 for a while playing Texas and Oklahoma in lieu of facing FSU and Clemson in terms of drawing fan interest in football. As had been iterated many times, AAC wasn't a good fit for UConn, and likely BCuse(less) would've sucked eggs too.

 

[Pat125]

I wonder...if Louisville, Syracuse, BC had gone to the Big 12 and UConn to the ACC....

How would things be today ?

Cuse and BC have had the kind of experience in the ACC that UConn had in the AAC.

Louisville did go to the AAC from the BE for one year...had a 12-1 year and went to the ACC. And last year was the Cards' first double digit win season in the ACC...a decade to make it.

Too bad that the two teams who had pushed for Louisville over UConn in the ACC no longer want to be in the ACC.

Regardless, I still think that…

1. UConn was the better choice over Louisville, and still can’t believe that people think the disgraced crook Jurich was a genius for simply saying that Louisville would be interested in joining the ACC.

2. I support Florida St. and Clemson leaving, and settling with the ACC ~$280 million each, and stop paying money and time wasting lawyers tens of millions of dollars. Move on!

 

[billybud]

FSU and Clemson would pay the exit fee and scoot. But the ACC is desperate and claiming they own the rights until 1936. The court will decide what the ESPN agreement/GOR really dictates. The ACC’s experience with the northeast has not been stellar.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

FSU and Clemson would pay the exit fee and scoot. But the ACC is desperate and claiming they own the rights until 1936. The court will decide what the ESPN agreement/GOR really dictates. The ACC’s experience with the northeast has not been stellar.

Typo's aside, the ACC has legitimate claim that they own the right through 2036 because all members of the ACC signed over their rights to the conference through 2036.

The posturing, the claims "we didn't know what we were signing over", the "they're keeping the details of the contract secret" is just that, an attempt to win battles in the courts of public opinion with the hope that it will gain favor from the P-2 conferences and lead the ACC to acquiesce to some (non-existent) public outcry.

 

[billybud]

Obviously...you have not pored over the actual language of the GOR and it's connected ESPN agreement...and are not fully cognizant of the GOR/ESPN Agreement.

The ACC has misled their members...and now that the total agreements are forced out by court order, there is a more complete understanding

...The GOR clearly states that the rights are assigned to the conference only to meet the requirements of the ESPN Agreement.

...The ESPN Agreement states that ESPN's ACC Agreement was through 2027 and ESPN could extend that to 2036 if they exercised that option by Februart 1, 2021...ESPN did not do so.

....ESPN has not exercised the option and the contract is over in June 2027.

a. The original contract was from 2012-2027.
b. The Gor was extended in 2016 with but with no extension of the ESPN contract except an OPTION was added for ESPN to pick up 2027-2036 if exercised by Feb. 1, 2021

These are facts.

....No contract...no ACC ownership of rights...new contract (since it is not THE ESPN Agreement referenced in the GOR), and that would require all schools to sign a new GOR..

1. FSU is patiently waiting for February 1, 2025 at which time:
2. ESPN does not pick up the extension and they are free, the negotiation will be about the the exit fee.
3. ESPN picks up the extension which necessitates a new GOR and they don’t sign, just pay an agreed upon exit fee.
4. ESPN doesn’t pick up the extension and 8 teams bolt to new conferences and FSU/Clemson lead the break

 

[FfldCntyFan]

If it were anywhere near as cur and dried as you've been claiming it would have been settled months ago.

 

[billybud]

Why would the ACC settle ? The Florida judge ordered remediation and both parties have said it won't go anywhere.

This is an existential matter for them...Why not delay as long as possible?

...there is no need to settle. FSU and Clemson won't even announce that they are leaving (and thus have the ACC withhold conference payouts). But FSU and Clemson won't play in the ACC in 2026.

Come 2025..it is over.

You have an opinion...and I have another...

 

[Hamms30]

Why would the ACC settle ? The Florida judge ordered remediation and both parties have said it won't go anywhere.

This is an existential matter for them...Why not delay as long as possible?

...there is no need to settle. FSU and Clemson won't even announce that they are leaving (and thus have the ACC withhold conference payouts). But FSU and Clemson won't play in the ACC in 2026.

Come 2025..it is over.

You have an opinion...and I have another...

why is FSU free on Feb 1, 2025 if the GoR is through 2027?

 

[kibblesnbits]

Things swirl a little differently now than they did in realignments of a decade ago.

Disney is going hard to the direct to consumer model. They are very interested in minimizing their exposure to the constant haggling with bundled carriers.

Although we still talk on about "markets", Disney and ESPN may be much more concerned with brand than market right now. Fox and B1g on the other hand are still more invested in the older model and markets do matter more to them.

Disney, in a direct to consumer model, knows people want to watch the marquee matches and big brands and will pay top dollar to watch them live. It is the only content that they will do that for in todays market.

If Disney thinks that I think they are misreading the market. I think many fans love to watch the big matchups as long as they are served up to them in a convenient, low marginal cost manner. In terms of interest and viewership, I'm an above average sports fan that certainly watches many big time games, but the minute that they tell me I have to subscribe to yet another service to see those games, I make a different calculation. Sports leagues, in general, I think are over-estimating how important they are. Even the NFL. Leagues assume that no matter where they put games fans like me will find a way to watch. That's true for the very wealthy or most hardcore, but I think many of us are starting to realize that if I don't see that Thursday night matchup that requires taking out another subscription, life will go on. I'm already tired, and its only just beginning, of constantly playing "where's the game"? The "we'll divide our media rights among 3 purchasers, each of whom will place games on at least 2 or 3 different vehicles" rights optimization strategy may backfire as fans like me pull back and focus our money on teams of direct interest.

 

[CJasmer]

If Disney thinks that I think they are misreading the market. I think many fans love to watch the big matchups as long as they are served up to them in a convenient, low marginal cost manner. In terms of interest and viewership, I'm an above average sports fan that certainly watches many big time games, but the minute that they tell me I have to subscribe to yet another service to see those games, I make a different calculation. Sports leagues, in general, I think are over-estimating how important they are. Even the NFL. Leagues assume that no matter where they put games fans like me will find a way to watch. That's true for the very wealthy or most hardcore, but I think many of us are starting to realize that if I don't see that Thursday night matchup that requires taking out another subscription, life will go on. I'm already tired, and its only just beginning, of constantly playing "where's the game"? The "we'll divide our media rights among 3 purchasers, each of whom will place games on at least 2 or 3 different vehicles" rights optimization strategy may backfire as fans like me pull back and focus our money on teams of direct interest.

Understood but most big FBS games people will pay. Would many pay to watch G5 games? Given UConn only gets $500k for the TV rights for football games what if they went to pay per view model at even $5 per year. UConn would only need 100,000 people to sign up to equate to the amount of money they are collecting now.

 

[billybud]

https://twitter.com/djbrianpate/sta...^1816980738400555276|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=

 

[Pat125]

Why would the ACC settle ? The Florida judge ordered remediation and both parties have said it won't go anywhere.

This is an existential matter for them...Why not delay as long as possible?

...there is no need to settle. FSU and Clemson won't even announce that they are leaving (and thus have the ACC withhold conference payouts). But FSU and Clemson won't play in the ACC in 2026.

Come 2025..it is over.

You have an opinion...and I have another...

The point is the contract is not as cut and dried as you state it is. If it was, Florida St. would be out, regardless of the ACC’s interest to drag things out, and Florida St. would save a lot on attorney fees. Yet here we are months later with no end in sight, and lots of attorneys continue to get rich for the unforeseeable future.

Your interpretation of the ACC/ESPN agreements may be right for all I know, and maybe all the courts will agree to that someday well into the future, but the problem is there are parts that both sides are vehemently fighting for regarding the interpretation.

In the paragraph of the agreement including “only to meet the requirements of the ESPN agreement” also includes the phrase whether the school “is a member of the conference or not.”

Also, I have not read from anyone or seen in any documentation regarding February 2021. If that were true, then the GOR is over in 2027 according to you. Why would Florida St. have to wait until February 2025?

Also, it does not seem fair to me that the option to extend to 2036 is one-sided towards ESPN. Both the ACC and the individual schools should have the option as well. But contracts can include one-sided provisions, and the ACC and the schools apparently agreed to it when they signed.

 

[billybud]

Lots of comments about the belief that since ESPN did not exercise its option to extend the ACC TV contract to 2036, then the contract ends in 2027. Period.

The concern goes that if this is so obvious, why hasn’t anyone influential to ending this debate come forward?

The answer lies in the documentation, or lack of it. FSU first announced that there was this ESPN “opt out” in a BOT meeting held several months before it filed the first suit in December. And they noted that it was extended after it expired and without a member vote.

But FSU only read those documents without being allowed to take notes and while being proctored and weren’t sure they read everything. The ESPN Agreement was unavailable to review except in a heavily redacted form. Several hundred pages to eyeball only. They needed all the documentation to make the legal case. They needed the TV contract(s) in their hands.

The ACC has kept documents unavailable..has instead, told members what the deals were...Clemson has filed in court that the conference, with malice, misrepresented the GOR and the ESPN Agreement...and acted outside of the bylaws.

Phillips just stated that he is negotiating with ESPN...If ESPN is already negotiating ”something” with the ACC, it is likely that Phillips knows that ESPN is not going to extend the contract.

ESPN probably doesn’t see the necessity of making a public announcement. Even if ESPN decides to extend the current contract, FSU and CU will then sue that the extension is invalid for all the reasons noted in former posts. ESPN will have no certainty that FSU and CU will be in the conference in the near future.

It will be glacierly slow if it goes through the courts with appeals, etc. But we will soon know with more clarity the contract details.

"Now, in response to Attorney General Moody’s action, the ACC has notified the state of Florida that the following documents will be produced in accordance with the Florida Public Records Act: (due by August 1, 2024)

..2010 ACC Multi Media Agreement
..2012 Amendment and Exten sion Agreement
..2014 Second Amendment to Multi Media Agreement
..2016 Amended and Restated ACC ESPN Multi Media Agreement
..ACC- ESPN Network Agreement (2016)
..Letter Amendment to Amended and Restated Multi Media Agreement (Aug. 10, 2021)