OT: - Florida State to sue ACC over GOR | Page 9 | The Boneyard

OT: Florida State to sue ACC over GOR

NE Football said:
The ACC has a couple of big advantages over the Big 12. First the ACC has its own network that is making a lot of money for both the ACC and ESPN. Second the ACC has several top 20 TV markets. Third the ACC teams are still making more money per team than the Big 12 teams. Fourth, the ACC has Notre Dame and they don’t want the conference to fold.

If and it’s a very big if, a few teams leave the ACC they will be replaced by Big 12 teams. WVU Cincinnati & UCF are easy geographical adds. TCU, TT, KU, KSU, OK St, Arizona & ASU are all good additions to the ACC and the ACCN. It’s not really about the Big 12 versus the ACC, it’s the remaining teams from both conferences simply taking the assets of the better conference.

I think at the end of the day, FSU settles for more performance based payouts from the ACC. Their timing is not good due to the TV providers pulling back. They are not worth a full share in either the B1G or the SEC. They are worth a larger share in the ACC.
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I see a lot of problems with your analysis. IMO, FSU is gone and it's only the number we're talking about. In addition, it appears that there really is only a deal until 2027. In addition, there are more rumblings from the so-called "Magnificent Seven" (FSU, Clemson, UNC, NCSt, UVA, VT, UM) to leave also. It appears, the ACC is a "dead conferences walking" . It will never be in the Super Two Conference category. The SEC and the BIG will be paying more than double to their members than the ACC will pay. The recent effort to become the A&PCC by adding 3 geographically disconnected schools evidences more desperation rather then shrewd conference planning.

Months ago I suggested we'll come down to a hard core group of 36-40 CFP schools, most of these are in the Super Two conferences (BIG and SEC) already. I see this as more likely now. Maybe that number jumps to 50 by adding the ACC's "Magnificent Seven", plus ND a couple of one-offs and a couple of current Big 12 members. After that, the pickings get slim.

The remnants of the ACC, including under achievers, BCU,Syra, Pitt, WF etc, will be trying to preserve a conference that is (and will be) weak in football and other than Duke weak in hoops. This is where the rubber meets the road. How valuable in any sport is BCU or Syra to a conference? Let's be real, those schools have been riding coattails to a $30mm payout per year. This especially pissed off FSU and it likewise makes the rest of the "7" pissed off too. I think the TV markets angle is overdone - who in Boston tunes in at any time to watch BCU play football or BB? Even in Boston, college football fans will tune in a great SEC matchup vs. BCU playing anybody. If anything, college sports in Boston is driven by hockey. Getting eyeballs and markets is the end all? That catches up to you when your product doesn't attract viewership...
 
CTBballfan243 said:
BCU will try and leverage their premier hockey program to get into the B1G. Maybe ND will want another small religious institution in the B1G when they eventually are forced to join.
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Yeah, I don’t see that happening. Maybe a decade ago but I don’t think they bring enough to keep what the Big10 has with their contract. I believe there are 4 schools that can potentially can break even on their media deal and those are FSU, ND, UNC and maybe Clemson. That’s it. No one else moves the needle. The SEC might be able to bring in UVA or VT as well, but I’m not even sure on either of those schools.
 
Sea Goat said:
I see a lot of problems with your analysis. IMO, FSU is gone and it's only the number we're talking about. In addition, it appears that there really is only a deal until 2027. In addition, there are more rumblings from the so-called "Magnificent Seven" (FSU, Clemson, UNC, NCSt, UVA, VT, UM) to leave also. It appears, the ACC is a "dead conferences walking" . It will never be in the Super Two Conference category. The SEC and the BIG will be paying more than double to their members than the ACC will pay. The recent effort to become the A&PCC by adding 3 geographically disconnected schools evidences more desperation rather then shrewd conference planning.

Months ago I suggested we'll come down to a hard core group of 36-40 CFP schools, most of these are in the Super Two conferences (BIG and SEC) already. I see this as more likely now. Maybe that number jumps to 50 by adding the ACC's "Magnificent Seven", plus ND a couple of one-offs and a couple of current Big 12 members. After that, the pickings get slim.

The remnants of the ACC, including under achievers, BCU,Syra, Pitt, WF etc, will be trying to preserve a conference that is (and will be) weak in football and other than Duke weak in hoops. This is where the rubber meets the road. How valuable in any sport is BCU or Syra to a conference? Let's be real, those schools have been riding coattails to a $30mm payout per year. This especially pissed off FSU and it likewise makes the rest of the "7" pissed off too. I think the TV markets angle is overdone - who in Boston tunes in at any time to watch BCU play football or BB? Even in Boston, college football fans will tune in a great SEC matchup vs. BCU playing anybody. If anything, college sports in Boston is driven by hockey. Getting eyeballs and markets is the end all? That catches up to you when your product doesn't attract viewership...
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A couple questions about your post:

1. Why does 2027 matter at all? ESPN can only opt out if 8 leave. But if 8 leave, that dissolves the conference. No one believes ESPN would re-up with the remaining members. Therefore, 2027 is irrelevant. Either the ACC exists in 2027 or it doesn't. Either 8 leave or they don't. If 8 don't leave, 2027 is totally irrelevant.

2. How many schools get into the SEC and B1G? 8? If it's less than 8, then explain why any school would take LESS money to go into the B12 AND, in addition, lose its NCAA credits, football playoff credits, and pay exit fees? That's a huge loss of money. Unless of course they all do it together, then that gets rid of the exit fees, but they still have losses! They make less money than they will make in the ACC, and surely in the dissolution they'd lose credits.
 
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dayooper said:
Yeah, I don’t see that happening. Maybe a decade ago but I don’t think they bring enough to keep what the Big10 has with their contract. I believe there are 4 schools that can potentially can break even on their media deal and those are FSU, ND, UNC and maybe Clemson. That’s it. No one else moves the needle. The SEC might be able to bring in UVA or VT as well, but I’m not even sure on either of those schools.
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I think UVA is the 4th school to get UNC, FSU and Clemson in the SEC. After those 4 are in the SEC, the SEC owns the south and any addition by BIG is just second place. Before anyone say FSU and Clemson adds nothing based on the state, SEC already has A&M, Miss St and Auburn. Having a second school in a state is not a huge issue (only maybe to SC and UofF).
 
History Geek said:
I’m think the recent adds of Calford and SMU were are proactive step to start setting up the ACC remnants with a coast to coast more eggheady G5 conference that would be on par with the Big 12. Let the P2 do their thing and complete with the Big 12.
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It was done to shake some more $$ from ESPN's pockets in order to give that money to FSU and Clemson in the hopes they'd stop all their whining and moaning. No other reason.
 
Tfoyle said:
I think UVA is the 4th school to get UNC, FSU and Clemson in the SEC. After those 4 are in the SEC, the SEC owns the south and any addition by BIG is just second place. Before anyone say FSU and Clemson adds nothing based on the state, SEC already has A&M, Miss St and Auburn. Having a second school in a state is not a huge issue (only maybe to SC and UofF).
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Dawg, there has been multiple reports out that the SEC is not looking at Clemson and FSU. They don't add anything to their tv value. UNC and UVA do, but the B1G also would want them. FSU big hope is the B1G, but if UVA and UNC go to the B1G then they might have to take a Washington/Oregon deal.

Clemsons only hope is a Washington/Oregon deal with B1G and that one of UNC and UVA go to the SEC
 
NE Football said:
No ACC team is talking with the Big 12. It’s a step down financially and a lot more travel. The B1G and the SEC need a lot more TV revenue to expand, that they don’t have, hence Oregon & Washington getting half shares. That’s less than what the ACC schools will be receiving.
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You are kidding yourself if you don't believe there haven't been feelers put out by ACC schools to the Big 12 as it's the prudent thing to do. And, the Big 12 already has Cincinnati and West Virginia which are close to Pitt and Louisville and maybe add NC State and/or VT. And, the ACC just added Cal, Stanford, and SMU, so travel isn't really part of the discussion.
 
How Sway?! said:
Dawg, there has been multiple reports out that the SEC is not looking at Clemson and FSU. They don't add anything to their tv value. UNC and UVA do, but the B1G also would want them. FSU big hope is the B1G, but if UVA and UNC go to the B1G then they might have to take a Washington/Oregon deal.

Clemsons only hope is a Washington/Oregon deal with B1G and that one of UNC and UVA go to the SEC
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Don't believe every report on realignment that you see. Of course, the SEC is going to deny any interest in FSU as they don't want to be seen as destroying the ACC. And, I really doubt the SEC is going to allow the Big 10 to get a foothold in Florida.

Hopefully, with FSU and the ACC suing each other, we will all find out how solid the GORs are which will end all of the internet speculation.
 
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upstater said:
It was done to shake some more $$ from ESPN's pockets in order to give that money to FSU and Clemson in the hopes they'd stop all their whining and moaning. No other reason.
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Fair enough, but the addition of those specific three schools point them in that direction if they want to go there. May be it was a coincidence.
 
Tfoyle said:
I think UVA is the 4th school to get UNC, FSU and Clemson in the SEC. After those 4 are in the SEC, the SEC owns the south and any addition by BIG is just second place. Before anyone say FSU and Clemson adds nothing based on the state, SEC already has A&M, Miss St and Auburn. Having a second school in a state is not a huge issue (only maybe to SC and UofF).
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Do you think that the SEC would admit Auburn or Miss St right now? Or is that a product of a different era. Do you think that the Big10 would admit Purdue or Michigan State? If the tables were turned and it was Texas in the SEC first, would the SEC admit TAMU? The only reason UCLA was admitted into the Big10 was to cripple the PAC. Could the SEC want FSU? Sure, but it’s not a given. Wr also have to ask what does FSU wants.

I’m not so sure that ESPN is in a place where they can be defensive to keep the Big10 out of Florida.
 
Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.
 
billybud said:
Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.
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can’t imagine it’s all just to find a number and say “eh we tried”…they’re leaving they’re just trying to negotiate the best exit fee
 
billybud said:
Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.
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From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.
 
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upstater said:
A couple questions about your post:

1. Why does 2027 matter at all? ESPN can only opt out if 8 leave. But if 8 leave, that dissolves the conference. No one believes ESPN would re-up with the remaining members. Therefore, 2027 is irrelevant. Either the ACC exists in 2027 or it doesn't. Either 8 leave or they don't. If 8 don't leave, 2027 is totally irrelevant.

2. How many schools get into the SEC and B1G? 8? If it's less than 8, then explain why any school would take LESS money to go into the B12 AND, in addition, lose its NCAA credits, football playoff credits, and pay exit fees? That's a huge loss of money. Unless of course they all do it together, then that gets rid of the exit fees, but they still have losses! They make less money than they will make in the ACC, and surely in the dissolution they'd lose credits.
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2027 was the original termination date. I assume you have read the respective complaints. The extension occurred in 2016. FSU claims there are consideration problems and fiduciary breaches in connection with any extension beyond that date . (Also consider that potentially extended GofR to an effective term of 24 years. Now that may work for many second tier members but not for a FSU or Clemson.) When you have such differences in members' outlook, investment, expectations etc. - how does one discharge their fiduciary duties fairly and equitably? That will be explored according to FSU's claims.
The fight over the ACC's GoR might be moot, if some sort single CFP super conference for football is developed.


I don't think all free agent universities will necessarily end up in a present conference set up. I think football may get separated out from the rest and exist in a CFP only linked conference. The old conference model may end up surviving for olympic sports only. Schools (say 50) can opt to make the investment (facilities, NIL etc.) to try to compete in a mini NFL conference and then play their olympic sports teams play in some existing conference. These conferences can offer football also - just at 1-AA type level.

One thing is certain - we are not near to writing the final chapter. But, a stand alone CFP category might make sense.
One thing will remain constant - change.
 
Zissou said:
From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.
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I think FSU and the B1G have had third party talks with the B1G's media partners whereby all parties are content enough to the point of the B1G telling FSU "once you are able to leave the ACC, we will take you in." So, they're engaged to be engaged. Time will tell.
 
Zissou said:
From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.
Expand ...

Not the whole of that...

"FLORIDA STATE requests entry of a judgment against the ACC declaring that the ACC GofR did not form a contract, or, in the alternative, that if the ACC GOR is a contract it is not enforceable vis-a-vis FLORIDA STATE, and that in that event, FLORIDASTATE be deemed to have issued its formal notice of withdrawal from the ACC under Section1.4.5 of the ACC Constitution effective August 14, 2023."

You have to read the ...that in that event....if the court finds FSU's way, then consider notice given. But notice is predicated upon the court's finding and that the court is requested to accept August 2023 as the date of notice.
 
Zissou said:
From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.
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Can the ACC kick them out just like that? Seems kind of crazy that they would boot one of their biggest TV draws. That would be cutting off your nose in spite of your face.
 
FSU has no desire to play against ACC refs next year....if they are forced to play a year while waiting release, the flags will fly...holding called every drive..PI called when there are 3rd down stops...
 
billybud said:
FSU has no desire to play against ACC refs next year....if they are forced to play a year while waiting release, the flags will fly...holding called every drive..PI called when there are 3rd down stops...
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Have FSU play UConn using ACC refs. They'll be vapor locked throwing flags against both teams on every play.
 
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UConnJim said:
You are kidding yourself if you don't believe there haven't been feelers put out by ACC schools to the Big 12 as it's the prudent thing to do. And, the Big 12 already has Cincinnati and West Virginia which are close to Pitt and Louisville and maybe add NC State and/or VT. And, the ACC just added Cal, Stanford, and SMU, so travel isn't really part of the discussion.
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Sea Goat said:
2027 was the original termination date. I assume you have read the respective complaints. The extension occurred in 2016. FSU claims there are consideration problems and fiduciary breaches in connection with any extension beyond that date . (Also consider that potentially extended GofR to an effective term of 24 years. Now that may work for many second tier members but not for a FSU or Clemson.) When you have such differences in members' outlook, investment, expectations etc. - how does one discharge their fiduciary duties fairly and equitably? That will be explored according to FSU's claims.
The fight over the ACC's GoR might be moot, if some sort single CFP super conference for football is developed.


I don't think all free agent universities will necessarily end up in a present conference set up. I think football may get separated out from the rest and exist in a CFP only linked conference. The old conference model may end up surviving for olympic sports only. Schools (say 50) can opt to make the investment (facilities, NIL etc.) to try to compete in a mini NFL conference and then play their olympic sports teams play in some existing conference. These conferences can offer football also - just at 1-AA type level.

One thing is certain - we are not near to writing the final chapter. But, a stand alone CFP category might make sense.
One thing will remain constant - change.
Expand ...
This doesn't answer the question about the relevance of 2027. 2027 is ESPN's chance to opt out IF the conference unravels. We're discussing this here on the understanding that FSU will be resisted and the conference won't unravel. If it does, there's nothing to talk about.

FSU knew all this when it signed on. ESPN gave this huge amount of money (which it no doubt regrets giving them) only because it knew it could control the TV rights for the full duration of the contract.

Regardless, the idea that 4 schools (or 5 if ND takes a spot in the B1G) will willingly take less money in the next year in a potential move to the B12, that's hard to believe.
 
billybud said:
Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.
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The whole exit fee talk is irrelevant. It's the minor part of all this.

The ownership of the TV rights is the major consideration.
 
billybud said:
Not the whole of that...

"FLORIDA STATE requests entry of a judgment against the ACC declaring that the ACC GofR did not form a contract, or, in the alternative, that if the ACC GOR is a contract it is not enforceable vis-a-vis FLORIDA STATE, and that in that event, FLORIDASTATE be deemed to have issued its formal notice of withdrawal from the ACC under Section1.4.5 of the ACC Constitution effective August 14, 2023."

You have to read the ...that in that event....if the court finds FSU's way, then consider notice given. But notice is predicated upon the court's finding and that the court is requested to accept August 2023 as the date of notice.
Expand ...

I agree with that context seeing the actual wording.

In that case, it’s a very strange ask of the courts. “If you rule in our favor, our notice is effective August. If not, never mind”.
 
upstater said:
This doesn't answer the question about the relevance of 2027. 2027 is ESPN's chance to opt out IF the conference unravels. We're discussing this here on the understanding that FSU will be resisted and the conference won't unravel. If it does, there's nothing to talk about.

FSU knew all this when it signed on. ESPN gave this huge amount of money (which it no doubt regrets giving them) only because it knew it could control the TV rights for the full duration of the contract.

Regardless, the idea that 4 schools (or 5 if ND takes a spot in the B1G) will willingly take less money in the next year in a potential move to the B12, that's hard to believe.
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It seems there may have been an agreement between the ACC commissioner and ESPN to allow ESPN to push out the time to extend the contract. If true, and done without a vote, it may make 2027 relevant and might provide FSU with an out.
 
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