OT: Florida State to sue ACC over GOR

[UConnJim]

No ACC team is talking with the Big 12. It’s a step down financially and a lot more travel. The B1G and the SEC need a lot more TV revenue to expand, that they don’t have, hence Oregon & Washington getting half shares. That’s less than what the ACC schools will be receiving.

You are kidding yourself if you don't believe there haven't been feelers put out by ACC schools to the Big 12 as it's the prudent thing to do. And, the Big 12 already has Cincinnati and West Virginia which are close to Pitt and Louisville and maybe add NC State and/or VT. And, the ACC just added Cal, Stanford, and SMU, so travel isn't really part of the discussion.

 

[UConnJim]

Dawg, there has been multiple reports out that the SEC is not looking at Clemson and FSU. They don't add anything to their tv value. UNC and UVA do, but the B1G also would want them. FSU big hope is the B1G, but if UVA and UNC go to the B1G then they might have to take a Washington/Oregon deal.

Clemsons only hope is a Washington/Oregon deal with B1G and that one of UNC and UVA go to the SEC

Don't believe every report on realignment that you see. Of course, the SEC is going to deny any interest in FSU as they don't want to be seen as destroying the ACC. And, I really doubt the SEC is going to allow the Big 10 to get a foothold in Florida.

Hopefully, with FSU and the ACC suing each other, we will all find out how solid the GORs are which will end all of the internet speculation.

 

[History Geek]

It was done to shake some more $$ from ESPN's pockets in order to give that money to FSU and Clemson in the hopes they'd stop all their whining and moaning. No other reason.

Fair enough, but the addition of those specific three schools point them in that direction if they want to go there. May be it was a coincidence.

 

[dayooper]

I think UVA is the 4th school to get UNC, FSU and Clemson in the SEC. After those 4 are in the SEC, the SEC owns the south and any addition by BIG is just second place. Before anyone say FSU and Clemson adds nothing based on the state, SEC already has A&M, Miss St and Auburn. Having a second school in a state is not a huge issue (only maybe to SC and UofF).

Do you think that the SEC would admit Auburn or Miss St right now? Or is that a product of a different era. Do you think that the Big10 would admit Purdue or Michigan State? If the tables were turned and it was Texas in the SEC first, would the SEC admit TAMU? The only reason UCLA was admitted into the Big10 was to cripple the PAC. Could the SEC want FSU? Sure, but it’s not a given. Wr also have to ask what does FSU wants.

I’m not so sure that ESPN is in a place where they can be defensive to keep the Big10 out of Florida.

 

[billybud]

Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.

 

[Sea Goat]

I’m think the recent adds of Calford and SMU were are proactive step to start setting up the ACC remnants with a coast to coast more eggheady G5 conference that would be on par with the Big 12. Let the P2 do their thing and complete with the Big 12.

Eggheady conference? Louisville is a member!

 

[UConnTrumbull]

Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.

can’t imagine it’s all just to find a number and say “eh we tried”…they’re leaving they’re just trying to negotiate the best exit fee

 

[Zissou]

Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.

From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.

 

[Sea Goat]

A couple questions about your post:

1. Why does 2027 matter at all? ESPN can only opt out if 8 leave. But if 8 leave, that dissolves the conference. No one believes ESPN would re-up with the remaining members. Therefore, 2027 is irrelevant. Either the ACC exists in 2027 or it doesn't. Either 8 leave or they don't. If 8 don't leave, 2027 is totally irrelevant.

2. How many schools get into the SEC and B1G? 8? If it's less than 8, then explain why any school would take LESS money to go into the B12 AND, in addition, lose its NCAA credits, football playoff credits, and pay exit fees? That's a huge loss of money. Unless of course they all do it together, then that gets rid of the exit fees, but they still have losses! They make less money than they will make in the ACC, and surely in the dissolution they'd lose credits.

2027 was the original termination date. I assume you have read the respective complaints. The extension occurred in 2016. FSU claims there are consideration problems and fiduciary breaches in connection with any extension beyond that date . (Also consider that potentially extended GofR to an effective term of 24 years. Now that may work for many second tier members but not for a FSU or Clemson.) When you have such differences in members' outlook, investment, expectations etc. - how does one discharge their fiduciary duties fairly and equitably? That will be explored according to FSU's claims.
The fight over the ACC's GoR might be moot, if some sort single CFP super conference for football is developed.


I don't think all free agent universities will necessarily end up in a present conference set up. I think football may get separated out from the rest and exist in a CFP only linked conference. The old conference model may end up surviving for olympic sports only. Schools (say 50) can opt to make the investment (facilities, NIL etc.) to try to compete in a mini NFL conference and then play their olympic sports teams play in some existing conference. These conferences can offer football also - just at 1-AA type level.

One thing is certain - we are not near to writing the final chapter. But, a stand alone CFP category might make sense.
One thing will remain constant - change.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.

I think FSU and the B1G have had third party talks with the B1G's media partners whereby all parties are content enough to the point of the B1G telling FSU "once you are able to leave the ACC, we will take you in." So, they're engaged to be engaged. Time will tell.

 

[billybud]

From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.

Not the whole of that...

"FLORIDA STATE requests entry of a judgment against the ACC declaring that the ACC GofR did not form a contract, or, in the alternative, that if the ACC GOR is a contract it is not enforceable vis-a-vis FLORIDA STATE, and that in that event, FLORIDASTATE be deemed to have issued its formal notice of withdrawal from the ACC under Section1.4.5 of the ACC Constitution effective August 14, 2023."

You have to read the ...that in that event....if the court finds FSU's way, then consider notice given. But notice is predicated upon the court's finding and that the court is requested to accept August 2023 as the date of notice.

 

[hoopsfan22]

From a previously quoted legal assessment:
“FSU in the last paragraph asks the court to deem its lawsuit as official notice of intent to withdraw as a member from the ACC and that such notice be effective as of August 14, 2023 (i.e. backdated). Together, these mean that FSU is leaving, the only question is when and how much it will cost.”

So this interpretation is that FSU has formally announced they are leaving.

Here’s a scenario: Let’s say the courts find some middle ground and settle the exit costs at $250M including GOR and exit fees. FSU says that’s too much, maybe we’ll stay. The ACC says, no thanks, we are ok with you leaving, just pay up. So FSU is booted at that point and has to pay. Then, the SEC and B1G say to FSU, “not so fast”, we want to see how this next tier of FBS plays out, so we aren’t expanding just yet. FSU sits as an independent until the next realignment wave.

Can the ACC kick them out just like that? Seems kind of crazy that they would boot one of their biggest TV draws. That would be cutting off your nose in spite of your face.

 

[billybud]

FSU has no desire to play against ACC refs next year....if they are forced to play a year while waiting release, the flags will fly...holding called every drive..PI called when there are 3rd down stops...

 

[Chin Diesel]

FSU has no desire to play against ACC refs next year....if they are forced to play a year while waiting release, the flags will fly...holding called every drive..PI called when there are 3rd down stops...

Have FSU play UConn using ACC refs. They'll be vapor locked throwing flags against both teams on every play.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

FSU has no desire to play against ACC refs next year....if they are forced to play a year while waiting release, the flags will fly...holding called every drive..PI called when there are 3rd down stops...

Something UCONN experienced with ACC refs this past year.

 

[History Geek]

Eggheady conference? Louisville is a member!

I think they will land in the Big 12

 

[upstater]

You are kidding yourself if you don't believe there haven't been feelers put out by ACC schools to the Big 12 as it's the prudent thing to do. And, the Big 12 already has Cincinnati and West Virginia which are close to Pitt and Louisville and maybe add NC State and/or VT. And, the ACC just added Cal, Stanford, and SMU, so travel isn't really part of the discussion.

2027 was the original termination date. I assume you have read the respective complaints. The extension occurred in 2016. FSU claims there are consideration problems and fiduciary breaches in connection with any extension beyond that date . (Also consider that potentially extended GofR to an effective term of 24 years. Now that may work for many second tier members but not for a FSU or Clemson.) When you have such differences in members' outlook, investment, expectations etc. - how does one discharge their fiduciary duties fairly and equitably? That will be explored according to FSU's claims.
The fight over the ACC's GoR might be moot, if some sort single CFP super conference for football is developed.


I don't think all free agent universities will necessarily end up in a present conference set up. I think football may get separated out from the rest and exist in a CFP only linked conference. The old conference model may end up surviving for olympic sports only. Schools (say 50) can opt to make the investment (facilities, NIL etc.) to try to compete in a mini NFL conference and then play their olympic sports teams play in some existing conference. These conferences can offer football also - just at 1-AA type level.

One thing is certain - we are not near to writing the final chapter. But, a stand alone CFP category might make sense.
One thing will remain constant - change.

This doesn't answer the question about the relevance of 2027. 2027 is ESPN's chance to opt out IF the conference unravels. We're discussing this here on the understanding that FSU will be resisted and the conference won't unravel. If it does, there's nothing to talk about.

FSU knew all this when it signed on. ESPN gave this huge amount of money (which it no doubt regrets giving them) only because it knew it could control the TV rights for the full duration of the contract.

Regardless, the idea that 4 schools (or 5 if ND takes a spot in the B1G) will willingly take less money in the next year in a potential move to the B12, that's hard to believe.

 

[upstater]

Most are misinterpreting the FSU suit. It is to have the courts give guidance on the cost of leaving the ACC. FSU has not formally announced to the ACC that they are leaving a date certain. The suit is about clarity of the liability.

The whole exit fee talk is irrelevant. It's the minor part of all this.

The ownership of the TV rights is the major consideration.

 

[Zissou]

Not the whole of that...

"FLORIDA STATE requests entry of a judgment against the ACC declaring that the ACC GofR did not form a contract, or, in the alternative, that if the ACC GOR is a contract it is not enforceable vis-a-vis FLORIDA STATE, and that in that event, FLORIDASTATE be deemed to have issued its formal notice of withdrawal from the ACC under Section1.4.5 of the ACC Constitution effective August 14, 2023."

You have to read the ...that in that event....if the court finds FSU's way, then consider notice given. But notice is predicated upon the court's finding and that the court is requested to accept August 2023 as the date of notice.

I agree with that context seeing the actual wording.

In that case, it’s a very strange ask of the courts. “If you rule in our favor, our notice is effective August. If not, never mind”.

 

[UConnJim]

This doesn't answer the question about the relevance of 2027. 2027 is ESPN's chance to opt out IF the conference unravels. We're discussing this here on the understanding that FSU will be resisted and the conference won't unravel. If it does, there's nothing to talk about.

FSU knew all this when it signed on. ESPN gave this huge amount of money (which it no doubt regrets giving them) only because it knew it could control the TV rights for the full duration of the contract.

Regardless, the idea that 4 schools (or 5 if ND takes a spot in the B1G) will willingly take less money in the next year in a potential move to the B12, that's hard to believe.

It seems there may have been an agreement between the ACC commissioner and ESPN to allow ESPN to push out the time to extend the contract. If true, and done without a vote, it may make 2027 relevant and might provide FSU with an out.

 

[Dove]

And somehow I am not the least bit surprised.

 

[CL82]

And yet, it's still better than pouring it on pasta.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Most of the arguments about growing rights fees seem to ignore this thing called “streaming” which is transforming entertainment. I will not rehash every point I have made in the past, but I do believe that every conference is on its last massive linear contract, ever. They are all downhill from here.

Also, ESPN is for sale. Robert Iger, who knows a lot more about trends in the entertainment industry than anyone in this thread, wants out of ESPN. What should that tell us about the future of a linear based sports network?

That ACC contract goes from being mediocre to pretty good for the ACC in the 2030’s. The corollary is also true for ESPN. The contract is pretty good for ESPN right now, but it gets worse every year as people continue to cut the cord. Take a network that is for sale and a tv contract that keeps getting worse for ESPN, and you have a very strong incentive for whoever the next owner of ESPN is to try to get out of or renegotiate the ACC agreement for 2027.

ESPN has a well documented track record of blowing up a league (Big East, PAC 12) when it is in ESPN’s interest to do so. It appears that FSU is the first ACC school to face that reality and try to do something about it, and it certainly won’t be the last.

 

[Dove]

And yet, it's still better than pouring it on pasta.

I dunno. I quality mezz rigatoni needs a superb chili on top.

 

[upstater]

Most of the arguments about growing rights fees seem to ignore this thing called “streaming” which is transforming entertainment. I will not rehash every point I have made in the past, but I do believe that every conference is on its last massive linear contract, ever. They are all downhill from here.

Also, ESPN is for sale. Robert Iger, who knows a lot more about trends in the entertainment industry than anyone in this thread, wants out of ESPN. What should that tell us about the future of a linear based sports network?

That ACC contract goes from being mediocre to pretty good for the ACC in the 2030’s. The corollary is also true for ESPN. The contract is pretty good for ESPN right now, but it gets worse every year as people continue to cut the cord. Take a network that is for sale and a tv contract that keeps getting worse for ESPN, and you have a very strong incentive for whoever the next owner of ESPN is to try to get out of or renegotiate the ACC agreement for 2027.

ESPN has a well documented track record of blowing up a league (Big East, PAC 12) when it is in ESPN’s interest to do so. It appears that FSU is the first ACC school to face that reality and try to do something about it, and it certainly won’t be the last.

I agree with most of what you're saying here, but if you're contracted to give me a lot of money from 2027-2036, I'm going to do my best to make sure you can't get out of it.

ESPN has roped themselves into a noose on this one. It's easy to break up a conference when the exit fees and the grant of rights are within a much smaller range, but when they extend so far into the future? It's an enormous amount of money that creates huge incentives for the remaining schools. ESPN has never faced this before.

Is it possible that ESPN can talk to 4 schools TOGETHER about leaving for the B12? Yes. But that would be an incredibly risky gamble given the huge stakes. When there's a pittance in the conference coffers, schools are much less willing to sue. When there's an incredible amount there, and when ESPN has already signaled they're getting out of the business of megacontracts, you're going to have legal blowback finally against ESPN.

Simply put, the deal ESPN made (huge money for extended period of TV rights) was too big for both ESPN and for the ACC. (It's great for the likes of Syracuse and BC though).