Expansion Rumors site profiles UConn

[Exit 4]

I'm not as bullish on UConn's potential standing in a college draft situation. I think UConn is clearly better than the following, after that is heavily debatable.

ACC - Wake, NC State <--because Duke and UNC already cover the NC footprint and of course, because Wake is tiny
B1G - Purdue, Northwestern <- both of these schools have inherent limited appeal
B12 - Iowa State, Baylor, Kansas State, Texas Tech <--because UT, OK, Iowa and Kansas cover these states already with superior public interest
PAC - Colorado, Utah, Washington State, Arizona, Arizona State, Washington, Oregon State <--these are all tough calls as all of these states have favorable demographic trends and plenty of fan support - sans the AZ and Washington schools - but again, two states with good demographic trends and a real opportunity to be the dominate university for the next 100 years.
SEC - Vandy, Miss St <--agreed

 

[pj]

I have stated and will continue to state that if there was some sort of "College Draft*" that started completely from scratch, UCONN would be picked over about 1/3 of the currently grandfathered institutions that are in the Power 5. For fun, here's who I think UCONN definitely gets selected ahead of:

ACC - BCu, Wake, Pitt, Fruit, NC State, Miami, Virginia
B1G - Purdue, Illinois, Minnesota, Northwestern, Rutgers, Maryland
B12 - Iowa State, Baylor Kansas State, Texas Tech, West Virginia
PAC - Colorado, Utah, Washington State, Arizona, Arizona State, Washington, Oregon State
SEC - Vandy, Miss St

Debatable as to whether UCONN gets selected ahead of (not saying/thinking they would, just saying there would be some debate before the selection is made):
ACC - Duke, UNC, Louisville
B1G - Indiana
B12 - Kansas
PAC - UCLA, Cal, Stanford
SEC - Ole Miss, Kentucky, Arkansas, Missouri

*Selection criteria assumes that politics (both political and institutional) are not a factor. Selection criteria weighed in my hypothetical draft: demographics, academic body as a whole (no specific weight given to AAU status), athletic success as a whole, future growth potential in academics and athletics, and future revenue potential.

Unlikely, considering that Pitt, Cuse, Louisville, Rutgers, Maryland, West Virginia, Utah, and Colorado were recently picked ahead of us. UNC, UCLA -- what are you thinking?

 

[Limbo Land]

Those who think BC is the only problem are naive. We have schools lined up against us for different reasons...
Florida St and Clemson will want Cincy instead of us for football
Syracuse and Pitt want us left out because of recruiting
Louisville wants us out because rather have Cincy as a partner... have more history with them and natural regional rival
BC wants us out because of regional turf

None of these reasons are logical, we are the better overall choice and university, but these feeling are out there. We are a great fit for the ACC and it make sense to land there. But it is not going to be easy.

 

[upstater]

I admit, I have not heard the new AD's comments.

If BC did not learn from GDF's foot-in-mouth misstep, they will never learn. Carolina and Duke thrive as neighbors, and, rivals. And, when NC State is good at the same time, the Research Triangle Rivalries are even more intense, and, fun.

How or why the folks in Chestnut Hill want to miss out on something like that in their own backyard makes no sense to me.

GDF's misstep was carefully calculated. He knew what he was doing. The mention of ESPN put a big kibosh on what was going down at the time. Virginia has big UConn and Notre Dame connections, and both ND and UConn were a part of a much bigger expansion. When GDL said ESPN was engineering everything, people inside the ACC, at ESPN, Pitt, Syracuse were livid. And the BE pricked up its ears for the first time. He killed it with that statement.

In other words, GDL accomplished what he set out to do, even if he looked like a buffoon in the process. And this is why the current AD (who is close school friends from Michigan with UConn's AD) still has the same policy that GDL did. Because it's a school policy.

 

[upstater]

Those who think BC is the only problem are naive. We have schools lined up against us for different reasons...
Florida St and Clemson will want Cincy instead of us for football
Syracuse and Pitt want us left out because of recruiting
Louisville wants us out because rather have Cincy as a partner... have more history with them and natural regional rival
BC wants us out because of regional turf

None of these reasons are logical, we are the better overall choice and university, but these feeling are out there. We are a great fit for the ACC and it make sense to land there. But it is not going to be easy.

Who said BC is the only problem? We are talking about past history, are we not? BC was a big problem in the 2011 expansion.

 

[coachcap]

The best thing about Thunder Chickens is boiling them for chicken stock.

 

[upstater]

That is exactly right. They made a mess of what was a decent FB program. Firing Jags, and, replacing him with Spaz, was a monumental mistake. BC competed well in the ACC with O'Brien and Jags as HC. Spaz undid all of their good work in four short years. Basketball-wise, after their first two ACC seasons, they've disappeared.

BC's problems are of their own making.

While what you say is true, the longer term outlook shows that long before ACC expansion in 2003 the Boston Globe was running stories from the likes of Bob Ryan about how BC feared UConn jumping to D1. He had quotes from BC AD sources. And BC feared losing football players because the heyday of BC basketball in the 1980s (when they made the Elite 8) coincided with Ct. heavy bball team.

Those 80s teams had players like John Bagley, Michael Adams, John Garris, Jay Murphy and others. These were all Connecticut products. So Calhoun moves in, and he not only grabs the best Connecticut players but regional talent. By the end of his career, he was grabbing Boston kids. There is a case to be made that losing Conn. players hurt BC basketball, since their heyday coincided with a time when they grabbed pretty good players.

 

[BoatShow]

Sooooo that site has HFD all over it.

 

[pj]

While what you say is true, the longer term outlook shows that long before ACC expansion in 2003 the Boston Globe was running stories from the likes of Bob Ryan about how BC feared UConn jumping to D1. He had quotes from BC AD sources. And BC feared losing football players because the heyday of BC basketball in the 1980s (when they made the Elite 8) coincided with Ct. heavy bball team.

Those 80s teams had players like John Bagley, Michael Adams, John Garris, Jay Murphy and others. These were all Connecticut products. So Calhoun moves in, and he not only grabs the best Connecticut players but regional talent. By the end of his career, he was grabbing Boston kids. There is a case to be made that losing Conn. players hurt BC basketball, since their heyday coincided with a time when they grabbed pretty good players.

As well as an important source of basketball talent regionally, Connecticut is also the best football recruiting ground in New England. Connecticut consistently produces more BCS players than the rest of New England combined, and more than New York State. Of course New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland are stronger still.

Moreover, UConn does better on TV than BC due to its larger alumni base and non-alumni state fans. Also, BC is hemmed in and has no room for expansion, so it is stuck with rather mediocre facilities, while UConn can grow significantly.

BC, in other words, has peaked in value, while UConn lots of room to grow.

 

[woomba]

As well as an important source of basketball talent regionally, Connecticut is also the best football recruiting ground in New England. Connecticut consistently produces more BCS players than the rest of New England combined, and more than New York State. Of course New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland are stronger still.

I think you're thinking on a per capita basis - Massachusetts and New York have more FBS players.

 

[upstater]

I think you're thinking on a per capita basis - Massachusetts and New York have more FBS players.

Look closely at Blue Chips and it flips right back to Connecticut. Look at NFL players even.

 

[SouthronCross]

That site makes a profile for us first. Only can be a good sign. Should I add the Pittsburgh Panthers as a rival on Wikipedia? Do not underestimate the power of Wikipedia.

Honestly, this is nuts. Never imagined that some ACC people would want us so much and that their conference would stay intact.

UConn is a natural fit into the ACC's northern reach. The access into NYC and New England make it a no-brainer. Your academic culture would be a natural fit, and, your emphasis on a diverse athletic program matches those already here.

To be fair, those same characteristics also make UConn appealling to the B1G as well.

I always felt that the ACC would stay together. Losing Maryland was disappointing, as the Terps had been fellow conference members, in various organisations, with both Carolina and State for 106 years. But, none of the other ACC member institutions were in the same dire financial straits that UMD was, and, still is, in. UNC and UVA are peer institutions, and, each other's oldest rival. Neither was going to the B1G without the other. UNC wasn't leaving their ancient in-state rivals, either. Even Clemson's head football coach said it would have been a mistake for CU to leave the ACC. That their natural rivals and primary recruiting grounds are here. Plus, they'd already proven that they could win a national title in football as a member of the league.

Now, I am pretty sure that both FSU and CU spoke to the Big 12, at least informally, and, they both made the choice to stay. Some fans from outside of the ACC say Swofford is a spinmeister, but, I seriously doubt he could BS the academic types at those two schools enough about the league's prospects going forward to fool them.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[woomba]

Look closely at Blue Chips and it flips right back to Connecticut. Look at NFL players even.

Blue Chip college players...vs. New York? Pretty sure that's not the case. You can make a case vs. Massachusetts depending on how you define "blue chip"

 

[woomba]

...Even Clemson's head football coach said it would have been a mistake for CU to leave the ACC. That their natural rivals and primary recruiting grounds are here. Plus, they'd already proven that they could win a national title in football as a member of the league.

The ACC in 1981 is a very different beast from today - none of the other ACC members back then would be considered a "power FB school" in the current ACC aside from Clemson. Since expansion the ACC FB title has been won by the original members just 4 times (and one of them is Maryland)...just once by Clemson.

 

[SouthronCross]

Elitism. BC doesn't need a regional rival. It has a national rival - ND. Besides, why risk humiliation on the football field as they suffered on the basketball court (23 straight losses to UConn).

UNC also has a national rival, Kentucky, in hoops. But, NCSU and Duke are who we want to beat more than anybody else annually. Especially Duke. At one point, they'd had beaten us 16 out of 20. Heck, they've won 24 of the past 36 from us. And, that drives Roy Williams, just like Dean Smith owning Coach K drove him to lift Duke to new heights. We had beaten State 13 straight, before they spanked us this past January, in Raleigh. We exacted our revenge four weeks later in Chapel Hill. State also whipped Duke In Raleigh. Duke won in Durham. State finally being good again reinvigorated the Triangle rivalries.

And, fans in NC went bananas.

BC already has no real rival within the ACC. Now, its elitism towards UConn has left them without any real rival at all. Its only marginalised them more than previously thought. And, if they're worried about UConn bypassing them on the football field, too, then, I worry about anybody at Chestnut Hill having a real competitive spirit within them.

 

[CL82]

UConn is a natural fit into the ACC's northern reach. The access into NYC and New England make it a no-brainer. Your academic culture would be a natural fit, and, your emphasis on a diverse athletic program matches those already here.

To be fair, those same characteristics also make UConn appealling to the B1G as well.

I always felt that the ACC would stay together. Losing Maryland was disappointing, as the Terps had been fellow conference members, in various organisations, with both Carolina and State for 106 years. But, none of the other ACC member institutions were in the same dire financial straits that UMD was, and, still is, in. UNC and UVA are peer institutions, and, each other's oldest rival. Neither was going to the B1G without the other. UNC wasn't leaving their ancient in-state rivals, either. Even Clemson's head football coach said it would have been a mistake for CU to leave the ACC. That their natural rivals and primary recruiting grounds are here. Plus, they'd already proven that they could win a national title in football as a member of the league.

Now, I am pretty sure that both FSU and CU spoke to the Big 12, at least informally, and, they both made the choice to stay. Some fans from outside of the ACC say Swofford is a spinmeister, but, I seriously doubt he could BS the academic types at those two schools enough about the league's prospects going forward to fool them.

Just my .02 worth.

I agree it is stable now (much to my disappointment...nothing personal) but I suspect it was far closer to coming apart than you suggest. If FSU had bolted the wheels likely would have come of the bus. Swofford is a master of the high pressure, sxhxixt or get off the pot choice. I think he offered that choice to FSU GOR. I think he used some schools testing the water of a conference affiliation change to put pressure on all of them to be in or out. It was masterful. I hate the guy but the ACC was nearly as fragile as the Big East and it has survived. You have to respect that.

 

[upstater]

Blue Chip college players...vs. New York? Pretty sure that's not the case. You can make a case vs. Massachusetts depending on how you define "blue chip"

Somewhere here there is a chart where Conn. produces them at 3x the rate of NY (don't know their definition), but even then Ct. would be behind since it has 1/5th the population. For NFL players UConn is behind as of last January by 31 to 24.

 

[Fishy]

BC already has no real rival within the ACC. Now, its elitism towards UConn has left them without any real rival at all. Its only marginalised them more than previously thought. And, if they're worried about UConn bypassing them on the football field, too, then, I worry about anybody at Chestnut Hill having a real competitive spirit within them.

Let's just make sure no one actually confuses Boston College for some sort of rival here. UConn's batting over .600 against the beanies.

Let's understand the state of affairs prior to Boston College leaving the Big East...

They were just coming off of a stretch where UConn beat them 23 straight times. Boston College lost every single game they played against UConn in the 1990's. They beat UConn in 1988 and then didn't manage to do it again until sometime in 2001.

I think Boston College was perfectly happy to leave that 'rivalry' behind forever.

 

[SouthronCross]

BC is a terribly insular institution and that stems from its leadership at the very top. GDF is a buffoon and institutions with good leadership don't allow buffoons to get into prominent positions of leadership, let alone stay in those positions should they somehow get there.

One small example of the insular culture. A couple of years ago there was strong evidence that BC's women's hockey coach had a s e xual relationship with one of his players. Could that happen anywhere? Sure. But, good institutions under good leadership vet the incident in a process that allows for process improvement for the future. BC publicly thanked this coach for his service as he purportedly moved on to other opportunities. A full investigation, if there was one, was never revealed.

That kind of culture does not embrace competition and it does not have the vision to realize that such competition might actually be in its own best interest. BC is in the ACC over UCONN right now for one reason and one reason only. They started playing D1A football before UCONN did. Were the choice to be made today between the two there would not even by a discussion on the choice.

Good leadership at BC would also have not treated former HC Jeff Jagodzinski the way that they did. Their last good FB teams were with him as HC.

I cannot understand why BC would not embrace the competition UConn would provide them. Sure, they'd take their lumps from you for a while, but, at some point, somebody there would have to say, 'Damn it, I am freaking tired of losing to UConn! Get me somebody in here who can beat those (expletive of your choice)!'

Hey, I WANT more competition in the ACC, in all sports. Your hoops programs are just the starting point. UNC knowing it will face UConn annually would only make us work harder to be good annually. I like that. Yeah, you all would bust our chops on occasion, but, we'd do the same to you as well. Both programs win, and, the league as a whole wins. And, we all get paid as a result.

Sorry for the little rant...lol.

 

[SouthronCross]

GDF's misstep was carefully calculated. He knew what he was doing. The mention of ESPN put a big kibosh on what was going down at the time. Virginia has big UConn and Notre Dame connections, and both ND and UConn were a part of a much bigger expansion. When GDL said ESPN was engineering everything, people inside the ACC, at ESPN, Pitt, Syracuse were livid. And the BE pricked up its ears for the first time. He killed it with that statement.

In other words, GDL accomplished what he set out to do, even if he looked like a buffoon in the process. And this is why the current AD (who is close school friends from Michigan with UConn's AD) still has the same policy that GDL did. Because it's a school policy.

Its a pretty damn sad school policy, and, an especially sad statement on BC as an institution of higher education.

After learning all of this, theres a part of me who'd like to kick BC to the curb. If they're that afraid of competition, they do not need to be in the ACC anymore.

 

[SouthronCross]

While what you say is true, the longer term outlook shows that long before ACC expansion in 2003 the Boston Globe was running stories from the likes of Bob Ryan about how BC feared UConn jumping to D1. He had quotes from BC AD sources. And BC feared losing football players because the heyday of BC basketball in the 1980s (when they made the Elite 8) coincided with Ct. heavy bball team.

Those 80s teams had players like John Bagley, Michael Adams, John Garris, Jay Murphy and others. These were all Connecticut products. So Calhoun moves in, and he not only grabs the best Connecticut players but regional talent. By the end of his career, he was grabbing Boston kids. There is a case to be made that losing Conn. players hurt BC basketball, since their heyday coincided with a time when they grabbed pretty good players.

I knew Bagley and Garris were Connecticut kids, but, not the others, so, that explains a lot of their negativity towards UConn.

BC had some pretty good teams back then. I wonder why they didn't just expand their recruiting base to NYC, Philadelphia, and, the Baltimore-DC corridor. They were a good program, competing well in a tough league. They had plenty to sell to kids, in both sports.

Fear of UConn succeeding is a part of their reluctance, but, to me anyways, a lot of it seems like laziness. Its almost like 'Why compete with UConn, when we can move to try and block them from joining?'

Thats a sorry ass attitude.

 

[SouthronCross]

The ACC in 1981 is a very different beast from today - none of the other ACC members back then would be considered a "power FB school" in the current ACC aside from Clemson. Since expansion the ACC FB title has been won by the original members just 4 times (and one of them is Maryland)...just once by Clemson.

All true. But, my point was that Clemson believes that they can still compete for the national title from here. I believe they are correct in that assumption.

The ACC's naysayers have been putting out the thought that its champion would basically be automatically left out of the 4-team playoff annually, and, thats just not true. In 2011, CU were ranked No 5, until late-season losses at NCSU and South Carolina. VPI was later ranked in the top 5, until CU spanked them in the ACCCG. Had either of them won out, they would've been ranked in the Top 4, and thus, eligible for the playoff. Ditto FSU last season. Like CU, they suffered a late-season loss to NCSU, and, then tanked vs Florida. Had FSU won out, they, not Alabama, would have played ND for the title.

The ACC chances to make a statement win have been there for the taking, but, have gone begging.

 

[ctchamps]

Those who think BC is the only problem are naive. We have schools lined up against us for different reasons...
Florida St and Clemson will want Cincy instead of us for football
Syracuse and Pitt want us left out because of recruiting
Louisville wants us out because rather have Cincy as a partner... have more history with them and natural regional rival
BC wants us out because of regional turf

None of these reasons are logical, we are the better overall choice and university, but these feeling are out there. We are a great fit for the ACC and it make sense to land there. But it is not going to be easy.

The Ville position is the only one that makes sense from a standpoint of strategic development of the league. All the rest of the points you make demonstrate pettiness and myopic decision making although FSU and Clemson have some rationality to their thinking.

It's a conference composed of desperate and short sighted decision makers. It's BE2. It really bothers me because it would be the conference I would love to see UConn land.

 

[SouthronCross]

I agree it is stable now (much to my disappointment...nothing personal) but I suspect it was far closer to coming apart than you suggest. If FSU had bolted the wheels likely would have come of the bus. Swofford is a master of the high pressure, sxhxixt or get off the pot choice. I think he offered that choice to FSU GOR. I think he used some schools testing the water of a conference affiliation change to put pressure on all of them to be in or out. It was masterful. I hate the guy but the ACC was nearly as fragile as the Big East and it has survived. You have to respect that.

I do agree that FSU leaving would've been huge, but, unless Clemson agreed to go with them, they would not go it alone. They see how tough it has been, and will be, on WVU in the Big 12.

So, for the sake of discussion, lets say FSU and CU leave for the Big 12.

If UNC decides to stay, then the UNC System BOGs is not letting NCSU go anywhere. And, vice versa. If those two stay, I think UVA and VPI stay. All of which saves Duke, and Wake Forest. Pitt and Syracuse still come aboard. That makes 8 teams.

Miami and GT are the wild cards. If they stay, thats 10 teams, and, a fair mid-major league. If not, now, they have some decisions to make. Do they expand back to 10 teams (the optimum number, IMHO), or, go all the way back to 12, so as to continue holding a football CCG?

Thankfully, we do not have to go through those scenarios, since everybody decided to stay.

 

[junglehusky]

There's deep-seated hatred that goes back generations between people who swear by the UConn Dairy Bar and those who swear by the Penn State Creamery.

Middle East conflicts come and go, but ice cream wars are forever.

And before that were the Pennamite-Yankee Wars. #NeverForget

 

[woomba]

All true. But, my point was that Clemson believes that they can still compete for the national title from here. I believe they are correct in that assumption.

The ACC's naysayers have been putting out the thought that its champion would basically be automatically left out of the 4-team playoff annually, and, thats just not true. In 2011, CU were ranked No 5, until late-season losses at NCSU and South Carolina. VPI was later ranked in the top 5, until CU spanked them in the ACCCG. Had either of them won out, they would've been ranked in the Top 4, and thus, eligible for the playoff. Ditto FSU last season. Like CU, they suffered a late-season loss to NCSU, and, then tanked vs Florida. Had FSU won out, they, not Alabama, would have played ND for the title.

The ACC chances to make a statement win have been there for the taking, but, have gone begging.

A 13-0 ACC champ will be fine. I think the danger will be in a hypothetical where there are multiple one-loss champs vying for the #4 spot. In that situation the ACC will be outside looking in most years unless there's something screwy with the schedule that year (i.e. only loss is a OT loss to a #1 ranked SEC team early in the season)

The problem is that it's hard to predict how often that will happen - my guess is 2-3 times over the next 12 years, which I personally don't think is enough to justify switching conferences over.

 

[pj]

Blue Chip college players...vs. New York? Pretty sure that's not the case. You can make a case vs. Massachusetts depending on how you define "blue chip"

I mis-spoke when I said New York. Here are NFL players by state of high school: http://www.maxpreps.com/news/J_G3Ol...ery-active-nfl-player-went-to-high-school.htm

Connecticut doubles up Massachusetts and has 71% more NFL players than the other NE states combined. It produces more than 3/4 as many NFL players as NY despite having less than 1/5 the population.

You're right about FBS players which tracks population more closely, although Connecticut has equalled Massachusetts in recent years as a source of FBS players (eg 2013, see http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1470883). But as you go to better quality -- I said BCS -- Connecticut does better relative to Mass, New England, and NY.

 

[NickyNewark]

And before that were the Pennamite-Yankee Wars. #NeverForget

Funny you would think of that particular conflict?My moms a Jackson from Tunkhannock,Wyoming County,Pa whose ancestor's were part of the Connecticut Yank contingent!!LOL...not talked about much!!

 

[Pudge]

BC basketball was never all that good.

 

[Adios]

And before that were the Pennamite-Yankee Wars. #NeverForget

Stuff like this goes to show we are culturally similar to the B1G. Because we used to own some of their land! Let's take it back!

Is that the first civil strife in the US after the American Revolutionary War?