ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[Lefty2one]

I think it's tough to argue that the overall athleticism in the NBA (and every other major sports league) is higher today than it was 20-30 years ago. Not saying that there weren't amazing athletes in that era that would be similarly dominant today - just as there are Olympic records that still stand - but I think that arguing that the overall league isn't bigger, stronger and faster is flat wrong.

It's not bigger. The data shows that. There are larger players doing more guard/perimeter things though. I except the league to grow smaller in the next decade but we'll see. The NBA has been the same size since the 70s, which is pretty cool to think about but also makes sense: you can do all sorts of things to improve your strength, flexibility, diet, etc. but there's nothing you can do to make players taller.

I don't think it's stronger either because strength isn't as important as skill is now. There aren't any enforcer PFs anymore, guys whose top attribute was raw human strength. Same with some of the big, lumbering, strong centers. You take away a slew of players who were out there because they were big and strong and I think it brings down the strength across the board. Not a bad thing, just different. The average weight for SF, PF, and C has decreased in the last decade.

Players are quicker now, more agile/mobile, players are better ballhandlers now, players are better shooters now, in general I'd say they're better leapers but not by a huge margin. The overall skill level is higher now across the board. Back to those enforcers, most of those guys wouldn't have a prayer of making it in today's league. Charles Oakley is not playing in today's NBA. You don't want to be a big hulking guy in today's league.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I agree with that but the big guys don't look stronger to me and they definitely aren't more physical.

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

 

[Lefty2one]

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

Which makes sense given how the game is played. Back then when everything was post-oriented you needed to be able to move your man on the block, or if you're a defender be able to not give up any ground. Strength was a huge deal. It was simply a more physical game by nature: if teams are posting up a ton and shooting far less jumpers, it's just going to be less physical. Post play is more physical than perimeter play. Anyone who's played pickup basketball at the park can tell you that.

You want to be as mobile and agile as possible in the NBA. In general, that's going to mean giving up bulk and strength.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

Go back to the 70's with Artis Gilmore or 80's with Mark Eaton and Tree Rollins. Those were brick walls.

 

[superjohn]

Go back to the 70's with Artis Gilmore or 80's with Mark Eaton and Tree Rollins. Those were brick walls.

View attachment 54490

Eaton was a friggin' monster. He was basically a real life Paul Bunyan.

 

[Mr. French]

Agreed with both points, in different ways.

None of these "bigs" today are messing with Charles Oakley or Barkley or any of the other monsters mentioned ... but then again, I don't think Mark Eaton was going to be able to guard Joel Embiid or KAT or AD on the perimeter. It's a different game for sure.

My overall point about the generational differences in athleticism is that it's so far overblown, both in terms of how much more athletic guys are now AND how much of a difference athleticism makes.

A super good player with elite athleticism ends up being Lebron, MJ, insert name here. But I know just as many Gerald Greens that would get absolutely smoked by Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Klay Thompson, just to name some random guys that aren't super athletic but know how to play.

I hate to sound like "old man yelling at cloud" particularly because I'm not even very old, but the difference in a very athletic, average player and a below average guy who can shoot, pass and knows how to play is HUGE, and not in favor of the athletic dude.

Athleticism is overrated in basketball, long story short.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

He is in discussion with Olajuwon for 4th best C all time.

No one is slotting him above the Big 3 of Jabbar, Wilt or Russell.

I would put him ahead of Rusell. He shot 44% as a Center in an era where he only had one athletic equal. HOF defender and probably the best leader in the history of team sports, but if they were all at the playground and you were picking teams, no way are you taking him ahead of Shaq.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'm not convinced that the league is bigger, stronger, and faster. (I'm not arguing it isn't either)

I think the only thing obvious is that the bigger, stronger players, (frontcourt players) are much more comfortable playing much farther away from the basket than they used to.

Sure. And most of them can dribble better than their counterparts could from prior eras. Yet there is nobody in the NBA that approaches the back to the basket skill set that McHale or Kareem had. People tend to say "they are more skilled" because they can do some guard like things. Yes, but most centers can no longer do center like things. Game is just too different now.

 

[tzznandrew]

Russell is the guy punching above his weight. He reminds me a bit of Yogi Berra of being on the right team at the right time to enhance his numbers. Let's face it. When Russell flashes two hands and every finger has a ring and he's still holding one in his palm, you have to start quantifying that.

Wilt, I think is underrated and people just look at him for his size and dominance. I look at Wilt and see a dude who was a borderline all-American in 400/800 track and high jump. He was a phenomenal athlete who was still a high level athlete in his 50's. I think his combination of size, strength and speed translates to any era of basketball. No way Shaq is going on the beaches of SoCal and playing beach volleyball. And even a Shaq in his prime isn't doing the high jump.

The other thing to remember with Russell is that he won back to back titles at San Francisco in college. He had K.C. Jones on those teams with him, a beloved teammate also with the Celtics, but perhaps the least qualified NBA HOFer.

Someone in another thread asked if a player had made the HOF without averaging double figures in any category, and, well, the answer is yes. KC Jones. A whopping 7.4 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 4.3 apg on 38% shooting and 63% FT. A Hall of Famer who literally never scored over 22 points. A very good defender, but...I mean...

Anyway, Russell averaged 21 and 21 on those San Francisco teams. The second title, nobody else averaged 10 ppg. He sacrificed for the greater good for his teams.

 

[tzznandrew]

1,000%

Also hate when people talk about "athleticism" nowadays ... I played 20 years ago and coach kids now that are in no way more athletic than my peers, regardless of how many trainers they go to. That helps them, it doesn't make them suddenly unstoppable Monstars.

Michael Jordan is and always will be one of the most athletic 2 guards ever. Larry Bird wasn't a great "athlete" in any era, but he could play. I know guys that aren't great athletes that will give the best athlete on the floor 40. It's very indicative of people not really knowing how playing basketball actually works.

People didn't draft Dončić because he wasn't a great athlete. Look what he's doing in the League: he's already one of the best players in it because of his creativity.

Bird was taller, a better shooter, and meaner than Dončić is. Bird would be killing the League right now, just like he did then, regardless of "athleticism."

 

[tzznandrew]

Definitely. There’s no one like Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Those guys were brick walls.

Which, to the point: Ewing and Robinson were all world athletes. Imagine if, from their high school days they weren't yelled at for taking shots beyond the FT line? Those are two guys who I think would translate well to today's game given their frame/athleticism.

 

[BlueMAB]

Sure. And most of them can dribble better than their counterparts could from prior eras. Yet there is nobody in the NBA that approaches the back to the basket skill set that McHale or Kareem had. People tend to say "they are more skilled" because they can do some guard like things. Yes, but most centers can no longer do center like things. Game is just too different now.

I don't disagree, just making an observation.

 

[Mr. French]

People didn't draft Dončić because he wasn't a great athlete. Look what he's doing in the League: he's already one of the best players in it because of his creativity.

Bird was taller, a better shooter, and meaner than Dončić is. Bird would be killing the League right now, just like he did then, regardless of "athleticism."

Great example. And if you watch him play, I don't get how you come away saying "he's not athletic enough to be as good as" ... who? Derrick Williams of AZ fame? Kelly Oubre? That's exactly my point.

Another one I always think of is Jerry West. I'm way too young to have watched him live, but I'm positive Jerry West is a stud shooting guard in basically any era. I don't care if every SG in the league right now is, by combine standards, "more athletic." Dude would be a killer regardless.

Maybe me being a crafty, not ripped and can't jump lefty who could shoot and get buckets has me in my feelings, but really it's always just been a pet peeve of mine.

I talk to kids I coached in HS and they act like a guy in the 90s had zero chance in today's game, it's quite baffling ... it wasn't THAT long ago, how much do you think athleticism changes in mankind over 30 years?!?!

 

[navery12]

We've had basically every other argument, so let's have this one

 

[Dean Wormer]

We've had basically every other argument, so let's have this one

Oooh, this is a tough one.
Maybe for the Dream Team Stockton was the better choice. Zeke was a scoring PG, while that loaded DT1 squad needed a facilitator.
But no way was Stockton a better player than Zeke, one of the best PG’s ever.

 

[Mr. French]

We've had basically every other argument, so let's have this one

Long term career was definitely better, he was reputedly a very good defender and for that team he absolutely fit better. But they really only had one PG they coulda still used Zeke if he wasn’t hated, lol.

 

[Mr. French]

Which, to the point: Ewing and Robinson were all world athletes. Imagine if, from their high school days they weren't yelled at for taking shots beyond the FT line? Those are two guys who I think would translate well to today's game given their frame/athleticism.

Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson could all shoot it ... and Malone was deadly from 17. So yeah, I agree, if the game was how it is now, they'd all be still the best Centers in the league, but they'd be shooting some 3s instead of all 15-18 footers.

 

[tzznandrew]

Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson could all shoot it ... and Malone was deadly from 17. So yeah, I agree, if the game was how it is now, they'd all be still the best Centers in the league, but they'd be shooting some 3s instead of all 15-18 footers.

You have to imagine with practice Malone could extend his range. He was less athletic than the others, though, and 6'9" rather than 7'0" like the others, so I don't entirely know how his game translates.

The others, though, with their touch, could be dominant on defense while also being stars on offense.

 

[Chin Diesel]

We've had basically every other argument, so let's have this one

In '92 Stockton was better than Zeke.

81-91 Zeke was a stud. By '92 he had slipped a bit.

 

[superjohn]

I always liked this video of Wilt showing Shaq how strong he is. Wilt is almost 60 here and he still amost rips Shaq's arm off...

Watch "Wilt Chamberlain shakes hands with Shaq" on YouTube

 

[methodology]

Players today overall might be more athletic but they also have less fundamentals.

 

[PAHusky]

Players today overall might be more athletic but they also have less fundamentals.

Source? With the rise of all year basketball through AAU I'd think that the overall skill level of players has gone up.

 

[Waquoit]

Players today overall might be more athletic but they also have less fundamentals.

So what? Athleticism trumps fundamentals at this level. But I think it hurts the game.

 

[uconnfan68]

I always liked this video of Wilt showing Shaq how strong he is. Wilt is almost 60 here and he still amost rips Shaq's arm off...

Watch "Wilt Chamberlain shakes hands with Shaq" on YouTube

He looks a lot bigger than either Shaq or Ewing too. Saw him once live, at old Boston Garden. Seats were far away and I had to lie down to see the other side of the court, but it was Wilt vs. Russell.

 

[methodology]

So what? Athleticism trumps fundamentals at this level. But I think it hurts the game.

McHale would have an absolute field day with post defenders today.

Athleticism helps you get away with poor fundamentals. But a guy with elite fundamentals is going to embarrass you

 

[Chin Diesel]

McHale would have an absolute field day with post defenders today.

Athleticism helps you get away with poor fundamentals. But a guy with elite fundamentals is going to embarrass you

As a Sixers fan I hated that monkey-armed ape. In today's game he'd be killer as a trail man on the fast break hitting 3's from the top of the key.

 

[BlueMAB]

As a Sixers fan I hated that monkey-armed ape. In today's game he'd be killer as a trail man on the fast break hitting 3's from the top of the key.

*double-checks post*

*breathes a sigh of relief*

Thank god you're talking about a white guy.

 

[JimHurley]

As someone who did not see Jordan in his prime, what made him BETTER than LeBron? Not looking for an argument, just generally curious. I think there's difference between best player and greatest player. The best player is simply who is the best basketball player of all time. The greatest player is who left the greatest legacy and their impact on the game of basketball. I think Jordan is unquestionably the greatest but I also think there's an easy argument for LeBron as the best.

LeBron is a better shooter, passer, and rebounder. He didn't score as much but Jordan was also more of a volume scorer. Jordan's toughness and defense beat LeBron easy. So what is the argument for Jordan being better than LeBron? You can always say 6-0 in the Finals, but winning alone doesn't make you the better player. If that was the case then Bill Russell is #1. And before anyone asks, I love both guys. Not hating on either one.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Players today overall might be more athletic but they also have less fundamentals.

This is sort of a lazy observation that doesn't seem to be based in reality. I mean, we're not comparing NBA teams of the 80s and 90s with AAU teams in 2020. Athleticism and skill aren't mutually exclusive and it's increasingly difficult in the modern NBA with the change in style of play to hide guys who aren't skilled. Who are all the freak athletes who lack the fundamentals of yesteryear? I think the stars of prior eras would undoubtedly thrive today but I would bet that a lot of former journeymen and role players wouldn't have a place on an NBA roster these days.

 

[HuskyHawk]

As someone who did not see Jordan in his prime, what made him BETTER than LeBron? Not looking for an argument, just generally curious. I think there's difference between best player and greatest player. The best player is simply who is the best basketball player of all time. The greatest player is who left the greatest legacy and their impact on the game of basketball. I think Jordan is unquestionably the greatest but I also think there's an easy argument for LeBron as the best.

LeBron is a better shooter, passer, and rebounder. He didn't score as much but Jordan was also more of a volume scorer. Jordan's toughness and defense beat LeBron easy. So what is the argument for Jordan being better than LeBron? You can always say 6-0 in the Finals, but winning alone doesn't make you the better player. If that was the case then Bill Russell is #1. And before anyone asks, I love both guys. Not hating on either one.

They play different positions, so it's not an easy comparison. Nobody would expect Jordan to have the rebounds the Lebron has.

Jordan was named to the all defensive first team nine times (tied for most). Jordan has a higher PER. Jordan took a lot fewer 3's yet his scoring average was higher. Jordan almost 10 percentage points better from the FT line. Led the league in scoring 11 times. Lebron has done it once.

Ultimately, Jordan was better relative to the rest of the league, than Lebron is. His competitive drive also made him a bigger winner overall. If you told me I had to win a playoff game and I could choose any one guy, I'd choose Jordan.