ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[CardiacAndre7]

That's not how what works?

We can't extrapolate data to make reasonable assumptions? Why not? Because you say so?

Of course you don't have to agree, but that doesn't make the point less valid.

Because, as i’m saying, assuming what would have maybe/probably happened doesn’t mean it would have. You can’t just plop a player in a different era and say this is what would happen.

My main point is I believe what ifs should not have any place in this argument. Compare MJ and LeBron on their resume’s.

 

[BlueMAB]

Because, as i’m saying, assuming what would have maybe/probably happened doesn’t mean it would have. You can’t just plop a player in a different era and say this is what would happen.

My main point is I believe what ifs should not have any place in this argument. Compare MJ and LeBron on their resume’s.

Check my edit, I think it explains the disconnect.

If we're talking about what Jordan would have averaged today (which is what I was doing), of course we have to make assumptions. But those should be based on data, not pulled from thin air.

 

[BlueDogs]

MJ was dominant and transformed the game using the entire floor as a weapon. Chamberlain shaped low post big man basketball for years. Bird brought the low post drive and long range dagger. Johnson transformed the point guard position. LJ is hugely dominant using his physicality in iso but hasn’t changed the game IMO. For that reason MJ is GOAT, Chamberlain is next, then Bird and Magic as toss up, and then LJ. Whatever the case, you’re talking about simply extraordinary players head and shoulders above their peers.

 

[UConnSean]

It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”

 

[gtcam]

Shaq in the top 10 is ridiculous
To me, Bird is above Magic
Kobe is way underrated in this poll
MJ is pure basketball ability without the physical attributes of LeBron so MJ definitely deserves the nod as #1 but anyone's top 10 is going to include questions - it a hard thing to do

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Shaq in the top 10 is ridiculous
Myself, Bird is above Magic
Kobe is way underrated in this poll
MJ is pure basketball ability without the physical attributes of LeBron so MJ definitely deserves the nod as #1 but anyone's top 10 is going to include questions - it a hard thing to do

I personally think Hakeem > Shaq, but Shaq in the top 10 is not ridiculous to me, he’s borderline. The most dominant player for a good amount of time, only blemish for me is a somewhat short-lived prime.

 

[Chin Diesel]

The problem with your analysis is that the level of talent greatly diminished as time passed.

Jordan had to go against Bird, Issiah, Magic, Wilkins, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwan, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, and so many more all stars.

Lebron is amazing, but honestly, the NBA during the Lebron era pales into comparison with the heavy weights the Jordan faced every game.

Jordan > Lebron

Ooh that’s a bad take IMO. There are more stars back to front in todays NBA.

Take a look at the top 25 in this list and compare how many of them Jordan competed against and how many of them Lebron competed against. Jordan competed against more of the all-time greats than Lebron has.

 

[superjohn]

It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”

I like Morey but he's on an island with that one, not sure anyone other than Isiah Thomas wants to join him on that island.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Take a look at the top 25 in this list and compare how many of them Jordan competed against and how many of them Lebron competed against. Jordan competed against more of the all-time greats than Lebron has.

That’s completely irrelevant right now as current players who aren’t top-25 will very likely end up top 25, such as KD, Steph, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, and a few younger guys who have that potential.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Shaq in the top 10 is ridiculous
To me, Bird is above Magic
Kobe is way underrated in this poll
MJ is pure basketball ability without the physical attributes of LeBron so MJ definitely deserves the nod as #1 but anyone's top 10 is going to include questions - it a hard thing to do

I personally think Hakeem > Shaq, but Shaq in the top 10 is not ridiculous to me, he’s borderline. The most dominant player for a good amount of time, only blemish for me is a somewhat short-lived prime.

You can definitely makes the case for Olajuwon > Shaq. With Jordan gone, Houston wins 2 straight and Olajuwon eviscerated Robinson, Ewing and Shaq in every head to head meeting.

 

[Chin Diesel]

That’s completely irrelevant right now as current players who aren’t top-25 will very likely end up top 25, such as KD, Steph, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, and a few younger guys who have that potential.

So, in another 10-15 years this list may get revisited and maybe LeBron slides past MJ for #1. Not inconceivable.

But, for right now, Jordan has a better peer list than Bron Bron.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I remember when the NBA was a Pretty local league.
I was a huge Oscar Robertson fan as a kid.
comparing LJ and MJ is really difficult
MJ did it with great athleticism,Incredible skill, and an unmatched artistry. combined with determination. He used all those in combination to impose his will.
LJ is Size , incredible Power, determination and guard skills , to impose his will.
Very different player,The question is who was more successful.
LB definitely carried less talented teams farther but MJ. despite his individual talent was better able to get teammates involved.
I’m old school team BB guy so I give the each to MJ.

 

[superjohn]

Check my edit, I think it explains the disconnect.

If we're talking about what Jordan would have averaged today (which is what I was doing), of course we have to make assumptions. But those should be based on data, not pulled from thin air.

He doesn't seem to get how Jordan taking .7 three pointers a game for his career and Harden taking 7.7 threes per game for his career accounts for a dramatic scoring increase in favor of Harden. The idea that a shooter as good as Jordan wouldn't be taking and making way more threes if he played in this era and his ppg average wouldn't be way higher is being just being disingenuous.

 

[BlueMAB]

It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”

FWIW - Morey appears to be in the minority.

 

[superjohn]

Scoring- Jordan 10 time nba scoring champ out of the 11 seasons he played enough games to qualify with the Bulls.

Lebron 1 time scoring champ out of his 16 seasons he played enough games to qualify.

Defense- Jordan 1 time defensive player of the year, 9 time first team all-defense out of those 11 seasons.

Lebron 0 time defensive player of the year, 5 time first team all defense out of those 16 seasons.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Somewhat of a tangent and realizing this doesn't decide who is the best player to play in the NBA...………..

One on one, Bron v. MJ. Who are you taking?

 

[tzznandrew]

I’m not comparing him to LeBron in this circumstance, but you’re forgetting to point out that MJ shot about 1/3 the amount of 3’s per game that LeBron has. So that certainly skews the statistic.

Either was I was responding to the idea that MJ would average 40-45 ppg in today’s league, which is ridiculous.

He also wasn't practicing for it. It was a different era. Jordan, who was a way better mid-range shooter, and way better FT shooter than people in his era, could have certainly extended that range if that was the style of the game. He taught himself how to post-up and fade away midway through his career.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Somewhat of a tangent and realizing this doesn't decide who is the best player to play in the NBA...………..

One on one, Bron v. MJ. Who are you taking?

In their prime that’s so hard to pick. LeBron was an All-World defender for a good chunk and probably should’ve won that 2013 DPOY over Gasol, and obviously MJ is one of the greatest defenders ever. Toss up for me.

 

[tzznandrew]

It really is almost all young people who didn't see MJ at his absolute prime who make this argument. It's recency bias, largely from people now in their 20s and early 30s who also didn't see Bird, Thomas, Magic, Kareem. If they don't watch the games, no amount of argument is going to change their minds. Meanwhile, people who played against both, people around the league who watched both, etc. all pick Jordan.

And what's interesting is that this isn't a hardened position, as it is for the people who didn't really see Jordan. Many of these former players and journalists, if you asked them in the 1980s, would have picked any number of people as the best ever: Robertson, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain, Magic (by the late 80s). But after watching Jordan for his whole career, they changed their mind. I think that's important: most of the Jordan supporters aren't people my age or a little older, born in the early-mid 80s wanting to be like Mike. They're people who have been around the game a whole hell of a lot longer than the LeBron fans.

And saying LeBron is one of the 5 best players ever--certainly that's not a criticism! Many agree he's #2, but I think that crowning him that is a bit of recency bias, and I think there are arguments for Magic or Kareem ahead of him even if I might ultimately come out with LeBron being the best of that trio.

 

[Lynyrd]

They aren't gods. It's an opinion, that's all.

Larry Bird begs to differ ...

“I would never have called him the greatest player I’d ever seen if I didn’t mean it,” Bird told The Boston Globe. “It’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

 

[Spaceman213J]

I will always take Jordan if for no other reason than something he has naturally that LeBron doesn't... and that is a killer instinct unsurpassed in basketball. He had a mental toughness that other guys just don't have.

The refs didn't help LeBron's reputation in the beginning. People complained because the refs gave him a long leash in the beginning the Jordan had to "earn" at first. And anyone who brings up Jordan getting away with traveling needs to go to youtube and type in Lebron and travel.

LeBron is great and as cerebral as he is athletic. But if the two went head to head in their prime, it comes down to a battle of wills and I take Jordan then.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Jordan played and started every game in four of the six seasons the Bulls won. He missed a combined six games over those six seasons. LeBron missed six games in 15-16 alone. He missed 34 in the four years he was with Miami.

 

[Lefty2one]

It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”

This is a brutal take by Morey. MJ was in the NBA one season before LeBron's rookie year. People act like there was some massive gap in the time MJ retired and LeBron's career. People also act like it was 1985 for all of MJ's career and 2019 for all of LeBron's. Nearly every major player that LeBron did battle with for the first decade of his career was in the NBA when MJ was on the Wizards, giving people buckets at 40 years of age with a sliver of his prime athleticism.

Did Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Shaq, Kobe, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Steve Nash, and co all magically get significantly more athletic in the years after MJ retired? Because those are the guys who were LeBron's main competition for more than half of his career.

I'm not saying the NBA isn't more athletic in 2020 than it was in 1985, obviously it is, but this notion that MJ played his entire career against far inferior athletes than LeBron did is way off base.

 

[Lefty2one]

Meanwhile, people who played against both, people around the league who watched both, etc. all pick Jordan.

And what's interesting is that this isn't a hardened position, as it is for the people who didn't really see Jordan. Many of these former players and journalists, if you asked them in the 1980s, would have picked any number of people as the best ever: Robertson, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain, Magic (by the late 80s). But after watching Jordan for his whole career, they changed their mind. I think that's important: most of the Jordan supporters aren't people my age or a little older, born in the early-mid 80s wanting to be like Mike. They're people who have been around the game a whole hell of a lot longer than the LeBron fans.

It's wild that guys like Bird and Magic were publicly declaring MJ the best player in the league, and then the best player ever, before they retired. These guys were uber-competitive, still active players, the face of the league, the guys who saved the NBA, and they're saying MJ is the best. That's nuts.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Jordan played and started every game in four of the six seasons the Bulls won. He missed a combined six games over those six seasons. LeBron missed six games in 15-16 alone. He missed 34 in the four years he was with Miami.

You can argue a lot of things, but arguing against LeBron’s durability is 1000% a losing argument.