ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

[CardiacAndre7]

Lebron's a freak physical talent but his flopping is an embarrassment which is why he may be top 10 or even top 5 but #2 is a stretch. I could never imagine MJ or Wilt getting grazed by someone's hand and falling down and rolling around on the floor like they got hit with a tire iron.

His flopping makes him lose spots in your ranking? That’s pretty weird.

 

[superjohn]

I’m not comparing him to LeBron in this circumstance, but you’re forgetting to point out that MJ shot about 1/3 the amount of 3’s per game that LeBron has. So that certainly skews the statistic.

Either was I was responding to the idea that MJ would average 40-45 ppg in today’s league, which is ridiculous.

Are you serious? Jordan would average 40-45 in his sleep in today's no touch 3 point shooting league. James Harden averages close to 40 for crissakes.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

He sure got the most out of those two stacked Heat teams that lost to Dallas and San Antonio.

You're thinking too much about the 15-16 Cavs and the subsequent couple of years. Don't forget the Eastern Conference was by and large objectively terrible. No one approaching the mid-90s Pacers, Knicks, or Magic. If James gets credit for great performances in losses to the Warriors, shouldn't Jordan get credit for his series performance against the loaded Celtics in 1986?

Lebron deserves immense credit for beating that Warriors team, that was one of the best overall individual performances in professional sports history. The thing that he'll never get past is losing so many times in the playoffs, especially with those two Miami teams. And some of his Cleveland Finals appearances are bolstered by a putrid Eastern Conference.

No I am not. What about the first team he took to the Finals. Hell, the last team he took to the Finals. Jordan never lost in the finals. He also never had to carry a bad team or even an inferior team in the Finals.

The lost to Dallas is as ugly as taking that 07 team to the finals was beautiful. Go back and watch that 07 playoff run. Most remember the game he scored 25 points in a row against one of the best defensive teams ever, but that entire run was phenomenal.

 

[SubbaBub]

MJ is #1 non-center which is the position that dominated the game until 1979.

But give Lebron his due, dragging the likes of Kyrie Irving and Dwayne Wade to the finals and championships. Neither comes close to how good Pippen was.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Are you serious? Jordan would average 40-45 in his sleep in today's no touch 3 point shooting league. James Harden averages close to 40 for crissakes.

People can hate on Harden all they want for whatever reasons, he is as creative and talented a shot maker i’ve ever seen, and a fantastic passer as well. He does turn it over a lot but that comes with the usage. And no, sorry, without being able to make 3’s consistently MJ would not average “40-45 in his sleep.” The game is built around the 3 now. And there are many more talented and versatile perimeter defenders that he would have to face.

 

[superjohn]

I agree.

Lebron taking several horrible teams to the Finals is also clutch. He has been to the Finals nine time in 17 years. Also Clutch.

The difference between the two is razor thin, and I don't think there is a bad answer. Just a matter of preference.

There's a pretty wide gap between them. Lebron has several playoff blemishes, Jordan has none. Only thing that stopped Jordan from gunning for 10 championships was the murder or his father and Reinsdorf letting Krause break up the team and forcing Jordan into early retirement. Jordan was just better offensively and defensively there's no comparison, once you throw in Jordan's insane mentality it becomes a fairly big mismatch.

Lebron is awesome but it's unfair to compare him to Jordan.

 

[Lefty2one]

LeBron's nine Finals trips are a weird thing to digest because the East was so bad for his entire tenure with CLE/MIA. I'm not sure who was the best team he beat in the East playoffs. I think it was the '14 Pacers. The '07 Pistons were declining but still tough.

A couple of years back someone put together the data comparing MJ's Eastern Conf to LeBron's. The number of 50 wins teams each guy faced and beat, the overall winning % of the teams they beat, etc. and it showed how weak the East was for LeBron.

On one hand, LeBron gets credit for dragging crappy teams to the Finals. On the other hand, in a normal, balanced East (which we haven't seen in over 20 years), most of those Cavs teams don't reach the Finals. This is why some MJ-haters knock the second three-peat because the East wasn't as strong but it was still a hell of a lot stronger than LeBron's era. The Pacers, Knicks, Heat, and Magic during the second three-peat were all tough.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

How blasphemous is that?!?

They aren't gods. It's an opinion, that's all.

 

[superjohn]

People can hate on Harden all they want for whatever reasons, he is as creative and talented a shot maker i’ve ever seen, and a fantastic passer as well. He does turn it over a lot but that comes with the usage. And no, sorry, without being able to make 3’s consistently MJ would not average “40-45 in his sleep.” The game is built around the 3 now. And there are many more talented and versatile perimeter defenders that he would have to face.

You're miasing the point. Guys barely ever practiced the 3 back then because it wasn't really a big part of the game. Jordan was a great shooter, of course he would've developed his 3 point shot way more in todays game. Harden has taken more threes in the past 2 seasons than Bird took in his whole career, you really think Harden is a better shooter?

Same goes for Jordan. Harden took more threes in 2 seasons than Jordan did in his career. What do you think is going to happen to Jordan's scoring average if he took a thosand threes instead of 200 in a season?

 

[CardiacAndre7]

You're miasing the point. Guys barely ever practiced the 3 back then because it wasn't really a big part of the game. Jordan was a great shooter, of course he would've developed his 3 point shot way more in todays game. Harden has taken more threes in the past 2 seasons than Bird took in his whole career, you really think Harden is a better shooter?

Same goes for Jordan. Harden took more threes in 2 seasons than Jordan did in his career. What do you think is going to happen to Jordan's scoring average if he took a thosand threes instead of 200 in a season?

I think you’re missing the point. You can’t just say “Oh he didn’t need to but he would’ve been great at them.” That’s not how analysis works, that’s how What If’s work. If you want to work with those, how about I proclaim that LeBron would’ve averaged just as many points as Jordan in the 80’s/90’s because he’s way faster, stronger, and more athletic than pretty much every perimeter defender he would’ve matched up against.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

His flopping makes him lose spots in your ranking? That’s pretty weird.

And I'm supportive of your freedom to feel that way.

 

[BlueMAB]

40PPG is not ridiculous. It's entirely possible, but based on this guy's math/reasoning it would be about 37ppg.

That is based on his 5th lowest PPG season due to the lack of Pace and shot data prior to 1997.

In an era where there were far more rim protectors, where the pace was slower, where fouls weren't called nearly as often, and where you could hand check, he still averaged 35 for one season, and over 30 for his career.

For a portion of his career centers could just clog the lane on defense. It's a more wide-open game. But Jordan wouldn't benefit from that???

But if the adjusted stats don't tell the story, most of the players do. Most guys who played with/against both Jordan/Lebron admit Jordan would average 40+ in today's game.

 

[ucp990411]

I’m not comparing him to LeBron in this circumstance, but you’re forgetting to point out that MJ shot about 1/3 the amount of 3’s per game that LeBron has. So that certainly skews the statistic.

Either was I was responding to the idea that MJ would average 40-45 ppg in today’s
league, which is ridiculous.

The 3 point shot was not nearly as much a part of the game during Michael's day as it is now

 

[superjohn]

I think you’re missing the point. You can’t just say “Oh he didn’t need to but he would’ve been great at them.” That’s not how analysis works, that’s how What If’s work. If you want to work with those, how about I proclaim that LeBron would’ve averaged just as many points as Jordan in the 80’s/90’s because he’s way faster, stronger, and more athletic than pretty much every perimeter defender he would’ve matched up against.

Ok, if you don't think practicing something more makes you better at it just take Jordan's career three point percentage and now see analyze what that would do to his ppg average if he took as many threes as Harden. I'm not even going to get into all the carrying you can do now, the no handcheck, freedom of movement etc. Just extrapolate the added three pointers taken.

By the way I know you weren't making the point but Jordan was also a freak. Lebron is bigger and stronger but Jordan jumped even higher, was even faster, and has much bigger hands.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Ok, if you don't think practicing something more makes you better at it just take Jordan's career three point percentage and now see analyze what that would do to his ppg average if he took as many threes as Harden. I'm not even going to get into all the carrying you can do now, the no handcheck, freedom of movement etc. Just extrapolate the added three pointers taken.

By the way I know you weren't making the point but Jordan was also a freak. Lebron is bigger and stronger but Jordan jumord even higher, was even faster, and has much bigger hands.

But that’s just my point, I think the era argument is worthless because I could pick and choose and you could pick and choose. Just take the careers at face value and argue that way. Make a point about the championships because that’s a clear advantage for MJ. What ifs are just that, what ifs. What if MJ wanted to take wayyy more 3s but in turn became significantly less efficient on the offensive end? What if his incredible FG percentage would’ve went way down? There’s always two sides to the coin.

 

[BlueMAB]

I think you’re missing the point. You can’t just say “Oh he didn’t need to but he would’ve been great at them.” That’s not how analysis works, that’s how What If’s work. If you want to work with those, how about I proclaim that LeBron would’ve averaged just as many points as Jordan in the 80’s/90’s because he’s way faster, stronger, and more athletic than pretty much every perimeter defender he would’ve matched up against.

Except we watched Jordan's game develop.

He went from a guy who really need to drive to score consistently to a guy who's jumper was lethal.

We watched how much better he got. We watched his game improve. We watched his 3pt shooting get better throughout his career. He had 2 or 3 seasons where he shot better than 37% from deep.

There's enough evidence to suggest he would have adapted to today's game, because we watched him adapt during his own career.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Except we watched Jordan's game develop.

He went from a guy who really need to drive to score consistently to a guy who's jumper was lethal.

We watched how much better he got. We watched his game improve. We watched his 3pt shooting get better throughout his career. He had 2 or 3 seasons where he shot better than 37% from deep.

There's enough evidence to suggest he would have adapted to today's game, because we watched him adapt during his own career.

Okay and I believe you, but that’s not how it works. Assuming things would’ve happened doesn’t mean they definitely would have. It doesn’t add anything to the original argument

 

[BlueMAB]

What if MJ wanted to take wayyy more 3s but in turn became significantly less efficient on the offensive end?

Because the data doesn't suggest that is what would happen. He improved his 3pt shot through most of his career. He went from being a very bad 3pt shooter, to being an average one.

 

[BlueMAB]

Okay and I believe you, but that’s not how it works.

That's not how what works?

We can't extrapolate data to make reasonable assumptions? Why not? Because you say so?

Of course you don't have to agree, but that doesn't make the point less valid.

Edit:
I want to be clear. I'm not talking about who is better, Lebron v MJ, but whether or not Jordan could average 40 today.

He averaged over 30 when the defense had an advantage, when 7' centers were allowed to hang out in the lane on defense, and when the pace was slower. Averaging 40 is far from "ridiculous".

 

[CardiacAndre7]

That's not how what works?

We can't extrapolate data to make reasonable assumptions? Why not? Because you say so?

Of course you don't have to agree, but that doesn't make the point less valid.

Because, as i’m saying, assuming what would have maybe/probably happened doesn’t mean it would have. You can’t just plop a player in a different era and say this is what would happen.

My main point is I believe what ifs should not have any place in this argument. Compare MJ and LeBron on their resume’s.

 

[BlueMAB]

Because, as i’m saying, assuming what would have maybe/probably happened doesn’t mean it would have. You can’t just plop a player in a different era and say this is what would happen.

My main point is I believe what ifs should not have any place in this argument. Compare MJ and LeBron on their resume’s.

Check my edit, I think it explains the disconnect.

If we're talking about what Jordan would have averaged today (which is what I was doing), of course we have to make assumptions. But those should be based on data, not pulled from thin air.

 

[BlueDogs]

MJ was dominant and transformed the game using the entire floor as a weapon. Chamberlain shaped low post big man basketball for years. Bird brought the low post drive and long range dagger. Johnson transformed the point guard position. LJ is hugely dominant using his physicality in iso but hasn’t changed the game IMO. For that reason MJ is GOAT, Chamberlain is next, then Bird and Magic as toss up, and then LJ. Whatever the case, you’re talking about simply extraordinary players head and shoulders above their peers.

 

[UConnSean]

It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”

 

[gtcam]

Shaq in the top 10 is ridiculous
To me, Bird is above Magic
Kobe is way underrated in this poll
MJ is pure basketball ability without the physical attributes of LeBron so MJ definitely deserves the nod as #1 but anyone's top 10 is going to include questions - it a hard thing to do

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Shaq in the top 10 is ridiculous
Myself, Bird is above Magic
Kobe is way underrated in this poll
MJ is pure basketball ability without the physical attributes of LeBron so MJ definitely deserves the nod as #1 but anyone's top 10 is going to include questions - it a hard thing to do

I personally think Hakeem > Shaq, but Shaq in the top 10 is not ridiculous to me, he’s borderline. The most dominant player for a good amount of time, only blemish for me is a somewhat short-lived prime.

 

[Chin Diesel]

The problem with your analysis is that the level of talent greatly diminished as time passed.

Jordan had to go against Bird, Issiah, Magic, Wilkins, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwan, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, and so many more all stars.

Lebron is amazing, but honestly, the NBA during the Lebron era pales into comparison with the heavy weights the Jordan faced every game.

Jordan > Lebron

Ooh that’s a bad take IMO. There are more stars back to front in todays NBA.

Take a look at the top 25 in this list and compare how many of them Jordan competed against and how many of them Lebron competed against. Jordan competed against more of the all-time greats than Lebron has.

 

[superjohn]

It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”

I like Morey but he's on an island with that one, not sure anyone other than Isiah Thomas wants to join him on that island.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Take a look at the top 25 in this list and compare how many of them Jordan competed against and how many of them Lebron competed against. Jordan competed against more of the all-time greats than Lebron has.

That’s completely irrelevant right now as current players who aren’t top-25 will very likely end up top 25, such as KD, Steph, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, and a few younger guys who have that potential.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Shaq in the top 10 is ridiculous
To me, Bird is above Magic
Kobe is way underrated in this poll
MJ is pure basketball ability without the physical attributes of LeBron so MJ definitely deserves the nod as #1 but anyone's top 10 is going to include questions - it a hard thing to do

I personally think Hakeem > Shaq, but Shaq in the top 10 is not ridiculous to me, he’s borderline. The most dominant player for a good amount of time, only blemish for me is a somewhat short-lived prime.

You can definitely makes the case for Olajuwon > Shaq. With Jordan gone, Houston wins 2 straight and Olajuwon eviscerated Robinson, Ewing and Shaq in every head to head meeting.

 

[Chin Diesel]

That’s completely irrelevant right now as current players who aren’t top-25 will very likely end up top 25, such as KD, Steph, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, and a few younger guys who have that potential.

So, in another 10-15 years this list may get revisited and maybe LeBron slides past MJ for #1. Not inconceivable.

But, for right now, Jordan has a better peer list than Bron Bron.