Duke AD bullish on ACC channel...New York presence

[billybud]

Whoa! I'm pumped for sure.

Yeah....I'm with ya.

Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise.

 

[upstater]

Yeah....I'm with ya.

Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise.

Virginia?

Huh?

Try Florida. Well, maybe Georgia.

Clemson, UNC, Virginia, etc. have done nothing Penn State couldn't do.

isn't this Florida State's perennial weakness?

You are in a conference with poor football teams, and still for many years FSU has not been able to dominate those weaklings enough to launch itself into the national championship.

I mean, UConn has played many of those weaklings over the years, Pitt, Syracuse, and heck Louisville, Virginia, Wake Forest, NC State, UNC, Duke. There hasn't been any dominance. UConn went toe-to-toe with the ACC weaklings. So, I don't see why you're drawing some border over the Mason-Dixon. Makes no sense. The ACC has accomplished NADA. And over those years, the BE blew it away in terms of BCS bowl victories and conference rankings.

 

[Fishy]

Let's call a spade a spade - college football is the top half of the SEC, Texas, Oklahoma, Oregon, USC, Michigan, Ohio State and Notre Dame.

Other teams catch some attention when they can, but they're making a cameo in the spotlight. No one truly cares about 'em.

 

[husky78]

Virginia?

Huh?

Try Florida. Well, maybe Georgia.

Clemson, UNC, Virginia, etc. have done nothing Penn State couldn't do.

isn't this Florida State's perennial weakness?

You are in a conference with poor football teams, and still for many years FSU has not been able to dominate those weaklings enough to launch itself into the national championship.

I mean, UConn has played many of those weaklings over the years, Pitt, Syracuse, and heck Louisville, Virginia, Wake Forest, NC State, UNC, Duke. There hasn't been any dominance. UConn went toe-to-toe with the ACC weaklings. So, I don't see why you're drawing some border over the Mason-Dixon. Makes no sense. The ACC has accomplished NADA. And over those years, the BE blew it away in terms of BCS bowl victories and conference rankings.

This is an accurate statement, whether you like it or not - "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise"
What this is intended to say is that the fan support for teams north of Virginia on the east coast is pretty poor (excluding Penn State which arguably isnt considered east coast anyway). UVa, Va Tech, and North Carolina have solid fan support. Regardless of their collective or individual success, their fans generate and exhibit way more excitement than any other school or fan base north of Virginia.

 

[husky78]

Let's call a spade a spade - college football is the top half of the SEC, Texas, Oklahoma, Oregon, USC, Michigan, Ohio State and Notre Dame.

Other teams catch some attention when they can, but they're making a cameo in the spotlight. No one truly cares about 'em.

Add in FSU and Miami - not necessarily for recent success but because of success up through 10 yrs ago (which is fairly recent). They still generate tons of attention. Throw in Nebraska and Penn St too.

 

[upstater]

This is an accurate statement, whether you like it or not - "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wis'e"
What this is intended to say is that the fan support for teams north of Virginia on the east coast is pretty poor (excluding Penn State which arguably isnt considered east coast anyway). UVa, Va Tech, and North Carolina have solid fan support. Regardless of their collective or individual success, their fans generate and exhibit way more excitement than any other school or fan base north of Virginia.

How is PSU not East Coast? 3/4 of the students are from Philly. What are we reducing the northeast to?

Va Tech has solid support.

Have you looked at UNC and Virginia football games? There are 35,000 fans in those stands tops for UNC. I watched the BC game. As for Virginia, they're even lower.

I'll say this again. Nothing distinguishes these northeast schools in the ACC (except for FSU) from one another. They all play a very weak brand of football. And though Clemson is the only other school with support, they have been bad at football for a long time (frankly, I think they are a giant fraud this year as well, and bowl season will prove me right on that one). You listed Miami as a well supported team in another post, but they struggle hugely to attract fans.

Of all the northeast and atlantic coast schools, there are only two that play football well and have good support. Penn State and FSU.

Miami used to play well but has poor support. Clemson is the opposite of Miami.

All the other schools draw a similar number of fans for games and have mediocre. 500 histories head-to-head.

 

[husky78]

How is PSU not East Coast? 3/4 of the students are from Philly. What are we reducing the northeast to?

Va Tech has solid support.

Have you looked at UNC and Virginia football games? There are 35,000 fans in those stands tops for UNC. I watched the BC game. As for Virginia, they're even lower.

I'll say this again. Nothing distinguishes these northeast schools in the ACC (except for FSU) from one another. They all play a very weak brand of football. And though Clemson is the only other school with support, they have been bad at football for a long time (frankly, I think they are a giant fraud this year as well, and bowl season will prove me right on that one). You listed Miami as a well supported team in another post, but they struggle hugely to attract fans.

Of all the northeast and atlantic coast schools, there are only two that play football well and have good support. Penn State and FSU.

Miami used to play well but has poor support. Clemson is the opposite of Miami.

All the other schools draw a similar number of fans for games and have mediocre. 500 histories head-to-head.

I have no idea where you get your figures from. Try reality buddy. Virginia seats about 62,000 - and they are sold out. UNC seats 63,000 and I'm willing to bet they are close to filling out every game. These are more than east coast teams north of Virginia.

As for your comment regarding PSU - read closely. I said they are ARGUABLY not an east coast team. Where you get that 3/4 are Philly students is pure fiction. This is not true. Even if many of their students come from eastern pensylvania, the reason why it isn't arguably considered an east coast school is because geographically it is located in central pennsylvania, and more importantly has cultural ties to the middle of the country and the big ten more so than it does to the east coast. Accordingly, it is arguably considered a midwest school more than an east coast school.

What distinguishes virginia, unc and va tech is their fan support, so your argument about weak brand is irrelevant - I went to both UVa and UConn and there is a stark difference in both the student and townie and state support for UVa than for UConn. From what I can see, same applies to UNC. Miami has a national following too.

 

[upstater]

I have no idea where you get your figures from. Try reality buddy. Virginia seats about 62,000 - and they are sold out. UNC seats 63,000 and I'm willing to bet they are close to filling out every game. These are more than east coast teams north of Virginia.

As for your comment regarding PSU - read closely. I said they are ARGUABLY not an east coast team. Where you get that 3/4 are Philly students is pure fiction. This is not true. Even if many of their students come from eastern pensylvania, the reason why it isn't arguably considered an east coast school is because geographically it is located in central pennsylvania, and more importantly has cultural ties to the middle of the country and the big ten more so than it does to the east coast. Accordingly, it is arguably considered a midwest school more than an east coast school.

What distinguishes virginia, unc and va tech is their fan support, so your argument about weak brand is irrelevant - I went to both UVa and UConn and there is a stark difference in both the student and townie and state support for UVa than for UConn. From what I can see, same applies to UNC. Miami has a national following too.

I'm getting them from the boxscores and watching the games. UNC announced 43000 tickets sold for BC but the stadium looked half filled. Virginia announced 41000 for last couple games in Charlottesville. They are not selling out and there are a lot of no shows.

You are wrong on PSU. The students are heavily from the Philly area. I know because I taught there and know all about admissions. The central part of the state is sparsely populated. When I say Philly, I am referring north to Bucks Cty and practically to Harrisburg. Coatesville for instance is Philly in the same way that Westchester is NYC.


Guess what? Rutgers now has ties to the B10. For ages, Paterno was angling for a Big East invite because he knew PSU was oreitned toward the East. School stood out like a sore thumb in the B1G.

 

[husky78]

I'm getting them from the boxscores and watching the games. UNC announced 43000 tickets sold for BC but the stadium looked half filled. Virginia announced 41000 for last couple games in Charlottesville. They are not selling out and there are a lot of no shows.

You are wrong on PSU. The students are heavily from the Philly area. I know because I taught there and know all about admissions. The central part of the state is sparsely populated. When I say Philly, I am referring north to Bucks Cty and practically to Harrisburg. Coatesville for instance is Philly in the same way that Westchester is NYC.


Guess what? Rutgers now has ties to the B10. For ages, Paterno was angling for a Big East invite because he knew PSU was oreitned toward the East. School stood out like a sore thumb in the B1G.

Your examples of capacity are outliers. Take a look at the attendance at games against big teams such as Oregon to see Virginia's attendance figures.
Take a closer look at actual attendance of a home UVa game against Duke (a team that does not draw much attendance during road ACC games) and compare to a UConn game against a team that should draw attention -

Duke at UVA: 40k attendance vs 62k capacity. 2/3 filled against a lowly team relative to the rest of their schedule
Louisville at UConn: 27k attendance vs. 44k capacity. 2/3 filled against a "big" team relative to the rest of their schedule

 

[btstimpy]

This is an accurate statement, whether you like it or not - "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise"
What this is intended to say is that the fan support for teams north of Virginia on the east coast is pretty poor (excluding Penn State which arguably isnt considered east coast anyway). UVa, Va Tech, and North Carolina have solid fan support. Regardless of their collective or individual success, their fans generate and exhibit way more excitement than any other school or fan base north of Virginia.

Virginia has fan support, but the fans are starting to lose interest in football this year because the team needs a new coach, and they are terrible. If the team is at least decent, we'll fill up the stadium and have a good track record of doing that. Mike London doesn't show signs of putting a decent team on the field, so that will erode support. The players and talent aren't the problem either.

 

[upstater]

Your examples of capacity are outliers. Take a look at the attendance at games against big teams such as Oregon to see Virginia's attendance figures.
Take a closer look at actual attendance of a home UVa game against Duke (a team that does not draw much attendance during road ACC games) and compare to a UConn game against a team that should draw attention -

Duke at UVA: 40k attendance vs 62k capacity. 2/3 filled against a lowly team relative to the rest of their schedule
Louisville at UConn: 27k attendance vs. 44k capacity. 2/3 filled against a "big" team relative to the rest of their schedule

Yeah, well, UConn isn't beating anyone at anything this year. When Virginia showed up at UConn a few years ago, it was a sellout. I'm comparing attendance there to like Rutgers and Cuse and the other northeastern schools, and UConn when they had a decent team.

I have no doubt UConn doesn't have the fanbase in football that UVa does. There's an obvious reason for that. UConn's run in major college football is a decade old. But in that short time it even defeated Virginia once by 45-10. Those are the kind of results I look at to tell me that this is a silly discussion at the end of the day. Neither school is good at football and neither school is a world beater in terms of fan support, though Virginia no doubt has a bigger and better base.

But look at Penn State--they are definitely east coast, any PSU fan will tell you that--and you'll see that northerners take football seriously in some parts.

If Billybud had compared the deep south the football over the Mason-Dixon line I would have agreed. Georgia, LSU, Alabama, etc. But he didn't. The ACC has been pretty weak over the years. That's all there is to oit.

 

[husky78]

Yeah, well, UConn isn't beating anyone at anything this year. When Virginia showed up at UConn a few years ago, it was a sellout. I'm comparing attendance there to like Rutgers and Cuse and the other northeastern schools, and UConn when they had a decent team.

I have no doubt UConn doesn't have the fanbase in football that UVa does. There's an obvious reason for that. UConn's run in major college football is a decade old. But in that short time it even defeated Virginia once by 45-10. Those are the kind of results I look at to tell me that this is a silly discussion at the end of the day. Neither school is good at football and neither school is a world beater in terms of fan support, though Virginia no doubt has a bigger and better base.

But look at Penn State--they are definitely east coast, any PSU fan will tell you that--and you'll see that northerners take football seriously in some parts.

If Billybud had compared the deep south the football over the Mason-Dixon line I would have agreed. Georgia, LSU, Alabama, etc. But he didn't. The ACC has been pretty weak over the years. That's all there is to oit.

You're missing the point regarding your last sentence. Irrespective of the fact that the ACC has been weak, their fan support (as far north as Virginia) even during such times is stronger than north of Virginia as shown both by numbers and more importantly because football is more deeply rooted there than north of Virginia. As a result, the statement "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise" has truth to it.

 

[upstater]

You're missing the point regarding your last sentence. Irrespective of the fact that the ACC has been weak, their fan support (as far north as Virginia) even during such times is stronger than north of Virginia as shown both by numbers and more importantly because football is more deeply rooted there than north of Virginia. As a result, the statement "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise" has truth to it.

Well, we can disagree too you know. I will disagree as far as the ACC goes. No question you are right about the south in general. Just not the ACC. Even Miami has poor fan support relative to the south.

We can even rank the best fan bases north of the border and south, and you'd find that PSU does 110k average prior to Sandusky, Rutgers is 50k (albeit with free tix), while BC and Cuse are in the mid 40k range, UConn and Pitt in the mid to low 30k range. Pitt nd UConn are below the ACCs Virginia and UNC and NC State, but above Duke and Wake Forest, about even with Ga. Tech. FSU and Clemson have great fanbases, but are below PSU. Va Tech gets 65k. Then a bunch of those ACCs get 50k. To me, outside of FSU, Va, Tech, Clemson and Penn State, not much difference in terms of butts in seats. And outside of FSU, Clemson and (historically) Miami, pretty weak football on the national scale.

Seriously, do you think Virginia and North Carolina are doing better than Rutgers fanwise?

 

[husky78]

Well, we can disagree too you know. I will disagree as far as the ACC goes. No question you are right about the south in general. Just not the ACC. Even Miami has poor fan support relative to the south.

We can even rank the best fan bases north of the border and south, and you'd find that PSU does 110k average prior to Sandusky, Rutgers is 50k (albeit with free tix), while BC and Cuse are in the mid 40k range, UConn and Pitt in the mid to low 30k range. Pitt nd UConn are below the ACCs Virginia and UNC and NC State, but above Duke and Wake Forest, about even with Ga. Tech. FSU and Clemson have great fanbases, but are below PSU. Va Tech gets 65k. Then a bunch of those ACCs get 50k. To me, outside of FSU, Va, Tech, Clemson and Penn State, not much difference in terms of butts in seats. And outside of FSU, Clemson and (historically) Miami, pretty weak football on the national scale.

Seriously, do you think Virginia and North Carolina are doing better than Rutgers fanwise?

I still stand by north of Virginia being the dividing line of college football being exciting, going back to the original statement "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise" with the understanding that PSU is not considered an east coast team in my definition. I have not looked at the actual attendance figures of Rutgers, but more important than attendance, as stated in my previous statement, is how deeply rooted football tradition is in places like Virginia compared to NJ, NY and CT. And because of that, yes I do think that Virginia and NC are "doing better" than Rutgers.

 

[upstater]

I still stand by north of Virginia being the dividing line of college football being exciting, going back to the original statement "Nothing that happens north of Virginia on the east coast is too exciting college football wise" with the understanding that PSU is not considered an east coast team in my definition. I have not looked at the actual attendance figures of Rutgers, but more important than attendance, as stated in my previous statement, is how deeply rooted football tradition is in places like Virginia compared to NJ, NY and CT. And because of that, yes I do think that Virginia and NC are "doing better" than Rutgers.

Yeah, Rutgers claims tradition, but to say its deep, I agree. Syracuse gets as many fans AND has a very deep tradition. Not sure why you'd discount it. Even Pitt has some championships.

But let's get back to the PSU thing. State College is east of Charlottesville, east of Raleigh-Durham, and every other ACC city except for College Park. I myself currently live in a northeastern city that is west of State College (Buffalo). Everyone up here considers themselves northeasterners, just as everyone at PSU did (the students were overwhelmingly from Eastern PA). As someone who has lived in Ann Arbor I can tell you there's a huge difference between the midwest and Buffalo, State College, Pa.

 

[husky78]

Yeah, Rutgers claims tradition, but to say its deep, I agree. Syracuse gets as many fans AND has a very deep tradition. Not sure why you'd discount it. Even Pitt has some championships.

But let's get back to the PSU thing. State College is east of Charlottesville, east of Raleigh-Durham, and every other ACC city except for College Park. I myself currently live in a northeastern city that is west of State College (Buffalo). Everyone up here considers themselves northeasterners, just as everyone at PSU did (the students were overwhelmingly from Eastern PA). As someone who has lived in Ann Arbor I can tell you there's a huge difference between the midwest and Buffalo, State College, Pa.

Sure, let's debate PSU - While State College may very well be geographically east of Cville and Raleigh-Durham, it is further from the coast by virtue of the fact that Jersey stands between the eastern edge of Pennsylvania and the Atlantic Ocean. Cville and Raleigh are a shorter drive to the ocean than State College is to the ocean because the coast curves inward south of NJ and into Virginia. So that diminishes your argument. Even more important than geography in my mind is the cultural fit. I consider PSU to be a bit of a hybrid in terms of cultural fit, east coast and midwest, and i tend to reasonably point the needle closer to the midwest because it is in the big ten and because Pennsylvania as a state is Philly on one side and Pittsburgh on the other with Alabama in between. It is less east coast like than Rutgers, UConn, BC, etc. PSU most certainly would and should be more east coast like than say Ann Arbor, but that isn't enough to say that PSU is really east coast in the grand scheme of things.

 

[upstater]

Sure, let's debate PSU - While State College may very well be geographically east of Cville and Raleigh-Durham, it is further from the coast by virtue of the fact that Jersey stands between the eastern edge of Pennsylvania and the Atlantic Ocean. Cville and Raleigh are a shorter drive to the ocean than State College is to the ocean because the coast curves inward south of NJ and into Virginia. So that diminishes your argument. Even more important than geography in my mind is the cultural fit. I consider PSU to be a bit of a hybrid in terms of cultural fit, east coast and midwest, and i tend to reasonably point the needle closer to the midwest because it is in the big ten and because Pennsylvania as a state is Philly on one side and Pittsburgh on the other with Alabama in between. It is less east coast like than Rutgers, UConn, BC, etc. PSU most certainly would and should be more east coast like than say Ann Arbor, but that isn't enough to say that PSU is really east coast in the grand scheme of things.

So, because it's remote, and rural, it's like the midwest? Even though the midwest is a huge population center. Other places that are remote and rural and feel like State College: Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, NW Connecticut, southern New Jersey, west Maryland. If you dropped State College into any of these places, you wouldn't know the difference.

 

[husky78]

So, because it's remote, and rural, it's like the midwest? Even though the midwest is a huge population center. Other places that are remote and rural and feel like State College: Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, NW Connecticut, southern New Jersey, west Maryland. If you dropped State College into any of these places, you wouldn't know the difference.

Quite frankly, I don't really care about PSU, but yes I do think because of its remote location and ties to the Big Ten that it has a bit of a Midwest vibe to it. It also has an east coast vibe because of the abundance of eastern Pennsylvania students it attracts, which is why it has a hybrid dynamic. Nonetheless, I consider it to be a bit more midwest than east coast.

UVa is similar - it has a large population of students from the DC metro area. The DC area (DC, and surrounding MD and northern VA) is culturally considered part of the "north" and less like the southern US. But because of its geographical presence in middle Virginia and because it also attracts students from NC, Tennessee, Georgia, etc., it is widely considered a southern school as a whole irrespective of the fact that a large percentage of its students come from the north.

 

[upstater]

Quite frankly, I don't really care about PSU, but yes I do think because of its remote location and ties to the Big Ten that it has a bit of a Midwest vibe to it. It also has an east coast vibe because of the abundance of eastern Pennsylvania students it attracts, which is why it has a hybrid dynamic. Nonetheless, I consider it to be a bit more midwest than east coast.

UVa is similar - it has a large population of students from the DC metro area. The DC area (DC, and surrounding MD and northern VA) is culturally considered part of the "north" and less like the southern US. But because of its geographical presence in middle Virginia and because it also attracts students from NC, Tennessee, Georgia, etc., it is widely considered a southern school as a whole irrespective of the fact that a large percentage of its students come from the north.

So what do you consider upstate NY?

There are a lot of rurals and remote areas all over the east.

Heck, east Carolina is about as remote and rural as you can get. I've been in places with no roads and criminals hiding out from the law (i.e. Outer banks). Aer you just associating just general backwardness and calling that the midwest?

I'm asking this because every single person I have ever met from PSU thinks of it as an east coast school, and practically all of the alumni head to Washington, DC, Philly and NYC. Almost no one I met ends up in Chicago.

 

[husky78]

I consider PSU to be a hybrid school with a slightly heavier midwest vibe. Similarly, I consider UVa to be a more of a southern school. Both schools have several students coming from northern and east coast areas (Philly and DC) but nonetheless the geography dictates its fit as midwest (in the case of PSU) and southern (in the case of UVa).

As for upstate NY, I don't consider Syracuse and west to be east coast either. Not sure I would call it midwest - let's just say it has its own rural fit.

 

[upstater]

I consider PSU to be a hybrid school with a slightly heavier midwest vibe. Similarly, I consider UVa to be a more of a southern school. Both schools have several students coming from northern and east coast areas (Philly and DC) but nonetheless the geography dictates its fit as midwest (in the case of PSU) and southern (in the case of UVa).

As for upstate NY, I don't consider Syracuse and west to be east coast either. Not sure I would call it midwest - let's just say it has its own rural fit.

We will never ever agree on this.

I've lived in the midwest. I know the midwest. You sir (State College, PA) are NOT the midwest.

 

[husky78]

We will never ever agree on this.

I've lived in the midwest. I know the midwest. You sir (State College, PA) are NOT the midwest.

Good debate. There doesn't need to be a meeting of the minds - I enjoyed laying out my reasons and reading yours.

BTW, I too have lived in the midwest (Chicago) for grad school.

 

[Fishy]

Add in FSU and Miami - not necessarily for recent success but because of success up through 10 yrs ago (which is fairly recent). They still generate tons of attention. Throw in Nebraska and Penn St too.

Nebraska, yes. That was an oversight.

The others are a solid step behind.

 

[husky78]

Nebraska, yes. That was an oversight.

The others are a solid step behind.

Not sure how you could consider Nebraska as part of that elite group, but not PSU, FSU and Miami. Nebraska and Miami each have 5 national championships - reason enough to include Miami. PSU is as storied as JoPa - seems like a no brainer, especially if the "top half of the SEC" includes South Carolina and Missouri. How would you include SC and Mizz but not PSU or FSU.

 

[Fishy]

You're not keeping up and honestly, you're a human speed bump here. Try to follow the thread if you insist on commenting.

Even in Florida, Florida State and Miami aren't given half the attention that UF gets.

Year in and year out, attention in college football is directed to the SEC and a bare handful of other schools. (PSU doesn't rate - lovely record, but they're not Michigan. FSU and Miami - nope and nope.)

This was in response to the gentlemen who decided that college football only matters from Virginia south.