Dorka Should Start

[Geesworld]

NC Sate and SC also played during the 20-21 season and both Cunane and Boston struggled in that game as well 3 for 13 and 4 for 14 respectively. Your premise (bigs struggle against other bigs and pile up numbers against other ) is not as applicable to Liv. Two of Liv's most notable struggles last season were in UCONN loses against Arkansas and Arizona. In the Arizona game Liv was matched up against 6'0" Baptize and 6'2"Cate Reese. Against Arkansas Liv was matched up against Taylah Thomas who is generously listed at 6'1" but she ain't.

Hard to play well when your the after thought in the game plan.

Didn't Arkansas double and triple whenever Liv received a pass low on the post? I'm sure they did because games Prior, Liv was a main go thru option down low because our offense was bad early part of season. Especially half court offense. If I remember correctly Liv spent most part of that Arkansas game as a glorified Stef Dolson, setting high screens. I think she was the best low post entry passer that game and all season. Not sure Liv struggled but I know for certain the Team struggled on defense against Arkansas and Arizona. Watching UCONN deliberately tried to post Evina, Christyn and Paige at times last year. But never commit to Liv and Aliyah.

 

[boontonbomber]

I had a thought watching SC against NC State last night. WE had a classic match-up of Boston vs. Cunane and sometimes with Cardosa. For the most part defense ruled, in other words when facing off against another very talented big performer, they couldn't dominate or do much offensively compared to what they normally do.

Obviously this board is well aware of how Liv's offensive output falls off a cliff against the top bigs, but based on Dorka's numbers in the past it has happened to her too, maybe not as much as Liv, but still a pretty big drop-off. So when I see top ranked bigs having trouble scoring against each other last night I wondered, maybe that is a more normal circumstance than we imagine.

Very good and talented C's are very very rare. They probably go thru most seasons like Liv pilling up big numbers with easy close baskets against players not nearly as big or good. Then they play a comparable player and those easy offensive rebound put-backs disappear, they might be shocked by getting a shot blocked, the same moves that worked with ease don't work anymore against tough competition. In many ways, for them it is entirely different situation that they face only a few times a year.

The only time they will face regular competition like that, is when they are in the WNBA. The players at other positions see talented opposition the same size far more often. But 6-5 and talented doesn't happen very often, so maybe they don't develop alternatives or counter moves against players of similar ability and size because they face it so rarely, and against 90% of their opponents they can just go with what works against smaller defenders.

very eloquent. thanks for your comments.

 

[BostonBay]

I’d MUCH prefer rebounding and defense from the bigs.
Got plenty of scoring elsewhere.

I'd much prefer rebounding, defense, and EASY BASKETS from the bigs.

 

[HopJim]

Excellent post. Last night I was also struck by how difficult it was for any of the Bigs on either team to score.

With about a quarter to go in the game between SC and NC State, Boston had 2 points. No one was criticizing her offense - was just the type of game it was. While Boston did not score much, her team won and most of the feedback about her play was positive. While last year ONO certainly had 1-2 horrid offensive games, she also played Boston well on defense and UConn won. For all those that like to focus on offense, lets not forget the many wins we had throughout the year, including South Carolina. Not many teams last year finished in the win column against SC.

 

[UConnCat]

Liv should start.

 

[oldude]

With about a quarter to go in the game between SC and NC State, Boston had 2 points. No one was criticizing her offense - was just the type of game it was. While Boston did not score much, her team won and most of the feedback about her play was positive. While last year ONO certainly had 1-2 horrid offensive games, she also played Boston well on defense and UConn won. For all those that like to focus on offense, lets not forget the many wins we had throughout the year, including South Carolina. Not many teams last year finished in the win column against SC.

The SC game last year was one of Liv’s best. While she didn’t score a lot, UConn ran much of their offense through Liv at the high post. She lead the team in assists (all to Paige) and continually freed up Paige for open jump shots with effective ball screens.

 

[meyers7]

So we all should close down this OPINION site? We are not entitled to express our OPINIONS? Jeeez....

No, everyone should be free to express their opinion (within reason), but just don't complain when other posters post disagreements with what your opinion is. Or tell you your opinion stinks.

 

[meyers7]

There is no hierarchy of opinions on the BY-that is a beautiful thing.

Not true, there are always Hierarchies.

When Geno credentials or his name is presented to support a posters BY argument one of our distinguished moderators call that a "conversation stopper". @HuskyNan

That's a good thing sometimes.

 

[CocoHusky]

Hard to play well when your the after thought in the game plan.

Didn't Arkansas double and triple whenever Liv received a pass low on the post? I'm sure they did because games Prior, Liv was a main go thru option down low because our offense was bad early part of season. Especially half court offense. If I remember correctly Liv spent most part of that Arkansas game as a glorified Stef Dolson, setting high screens. I think she was the best low post entry passer that game and all season. Not sure Liv struggled but I know for certain the Team struggled on defense against Arkansas and Arizona. Watching UCONN deliberately tried to post Evina, Christyn and Paige at times last year. But never commit to Liv and Aliyah.

That 's not what happened. Very early in Arkansas game Carolyn Peck of all people stated that Liv need to make her presence felt on the floor because she was the tallest player. Arkansas was doubling Liv on the block but Liv was making it way too easy for them. Liv was putting the ball on the floor and moving to the baseline side which made it easy for the defense to double because the double was now coming from her blind side. In addition to that Liv was taking multiple dribbles. A good example of what I'm talking about was 5:53 of the first quarter where Desting Slocum (not exactly know for defense) stripped Liv just about a cleanly as possible. There is no need to put the ball on the floor when the catch is in that spot and you have a smaller defender on you. Just get the ball over your head, wait for the cutters to pass or shoot the ball. UCONN game plans usually does not commit to a single player. The offense is equal opportunity and each players have got to take advantage of the touch they get in the structure of offense. This was a game where Liv did not maximize her touches because she had more turnovers than assist. Also keep in mind that UCONN had a six point lead 22 16 when Liv picked up her second foul before the 1st Q. was over. That also changed the game because even if UCONN wanted to take advantage of the size advantage it could not with Liv sitting on the bench. BTW all things about Stefanie Dolson should be glorified-that woman was a baller of the highest order.

 

[Stymie]

Liv should start.

I’ll tell you what.
In my book, it’s hers to lose.
I don’t know what the competition in practice looks like, but that’s where the battle will be won or lost.
Not on the court against Big East chumps.
Let all of them Liv, Dorka, Aaliyah, Piath and Deberry go at it in practice.
Dominating against a 6’1” player from Georgetown doesn’t mean diddly.
——-Sacrilege below—-
If Geno can’t develop a dominant big from this group, then that’s on HIM.
I don’t want to hear it.
Past success IS in the past .
THIS IS NOW.
Huge size up and down this roster.
If you have to bring in a 6’6” or 6’7” GUY. for them to scrimmage against, then DO IT.

 

[DefenseBB]

That’s fine. I’ve seen every UConn game that Liv has played in for the past 3 years. I will venture to guess there isn’t a single BY’er that’s watched more than a handful of Dorka’s games over the past 3 years.

I’ve watched 2 of Dorka’s games, both against UConn, one as a freshman and one as a sophomore. She was 2/8 & 0/4 from the arc as a freshman and 4/15 & 0/5 as a sophomore.

Since one of the criticisms of Liv is that she doesn’t show up in big games, I thought it was interesting that in arguably the biggest games of her first 2 years, Dorka struggled shooting the ball.

However, I have an open mind. I believe Dorka will be much better playing with UConn than playing against UConn.

Actually, I have seen Dorka play in-person twice and 11 times overall. I don't think this question of starting is an "either/or" situation. Ultimately the question is can both play together to complement each other and push the other to get better.

Overall, I would say Dorka she is better than Liv as her offense (13 pts to 9 pts) and rebounding (9.42 to 6.37) are significantly better and against better competition and that is usually what you want-more offense. Liv's defense is better with 169 blocks to Dorka's 64 shows that. And yes, Liv does have more 164 assists to 70 for Dorka while their TO's are the same (145 to 136). 3 Point shooting is a no contest as Dorka is 62/211 vs. Liv 4/22. Liv can't keep opposing defenses honest.

That said, Geno for all his bluster, is fiercely loyal to his players and would not remotely consider benching Liv until it is so apparent he has to, which given the Big East schedule will not occur. If anything, Dorka should start over Aaliyah with Aaliyah coming in to support either of them-offense for Liv or defense for Dorka.

The best part of the internet is anyone can easily look up the stat history of a player and who they played against to see the results. As has been noted, Dorka's competition has been significantly better so her numbers would have a bump factor due to that.
Dorka is Dorka Juhasz | UConn Huskies | College Women's Basketball | Yahoo! Sports
Liv is Olivia Nelson-Ododa | UConn Huskies | College Women's Basketball | Yahoo! Sports

 

[CocoHusky]

Little perplexed that Dorka vs Olivia career stats and awards are being highlighted to make a compelling contrast between the two. So much is lost when a post of such is shared. But I stand in the minority so I'll keep quiet.

What do you belief to be the "minority" as it relates to this thread. Just curious?

 

[Geesworld]

That 's not what happened. Very early in Arkansas game Carolyn Peck of all people stated that Liv need to make her presence felt on the floor because she was the tallest player. Arkansas was doubling Liv on the block but Liv was making it way too easy for them. Liv was putting the ball on the floor and moving to the baseline side which made it easy for the defense to double because the double was now coming from her blind side. In addition to that Liv was taking multiple dribbles. A good example of what I'm talking about was 5:53 of the first quarter where Desting Slocum (not exactly know for defense) stripped Liv just about a cleanly as possible. There is no need to put the ball on the floor when the catch is in that spot and you have a smaller defender on you. Just get the ball over your head, wait for the cutters to pass or shoot the ball. UCONN game plans usually does not commit to a single player. The offense is equal opportunity and each players have got to take advantage of the touch they get in the structure of offense. This was a game where Liv did not maximize her touches because she had more turnovers than assist. Also keep in mind that UCONN had a six point lead 22 16 when Liv picked up her second foul before the 1st Q. was over. That also changed the game because even if UCONN wanted to take advantage of the size advantage it could not with Liv sitting on the bench. BTW all things about Stefanie Dolson should be glorified-that woman was a baller of the highest order.

Ah yes the beloved Carolyn Peck! The one who called the game as a novice verses an expert. Called Liv out several times and our fan faithful, ate it up, because Liv, was flavor the of the month. Yes Liv had two poor turnovers. No excuse for either one of them. Just like there are no excuses for the other nine turnovers in that quarter committed by the other UCONN players, that for whatever reason go unnoticed. Carolyn Peck, could have pointed out how much attention Liv was drawing and that the other players should be capitalizing off that. She could have also mentioned, Liv's aggressiveness when trying to post and not receiving he ball. Liv did receive her second foul on fighting for post position. But the great Carolyn Peck mentioned how Liv needs to get herself involved....LMBO
She could have also mentioned the little things Liv did to affect the game especially on defense. Two turnovers followed by two turnovers by perimeter players is different how?
It was clear from tip off that Geno and UCONN had no plans to use height is might, that evening. All you had to do is watch from tip off and see they had Liv playing 10 feet away from the basket.

Liv's Junior numbers are comparable to Stef Dolson Junior year, Stef would be crucified in this era of fans.

 

[Geesworld]

What do you belief to be the "minority" as it relates to this thread. Just curious?

Because so many are unhappy with Liv and I am not. That is what I meant by minority.

 

[CocoHusky]

That said, Geno for all his bluster, is fiercely loyal to his players and would not remotely consider benching Liv until it is so apparent he has to, which given the Big East schedule will not occur. If anything, Dorka should start over Aaliyah with Aaliyah coming in to support either of them-offense for Liv or defense for Dorka.

The best part of the internet is anyone can easily look up the stat history of a player and who they played against to see the results. As has been noted, Dorka's competition has been significantly better so her numbers would have a bump factor due to that.
Dorka is Dorka Juhasz | UConn Huskies | College Women's Basketball | Yahoo! Sports
Liv is Olivia Nelson-Ododa | UConn Huskies | College Women's Basketball | Yahoo! Sports

Both Dorka and Liv are Geno's players-it is not as if Geno thinks of Dorka as an outsider as some BYers might envision. Geno is fiercely loyal to all his players, he is also fiercely competitive and wants to win. Quite honestly the only surprise to me is that Geno took until her senior season to throw down the gauntlet for Liv by stating paraphrased: " If she does not improve she in for a very long senior season". Arizona is also not Liv's first loss that should have motivated her to improve- there was the Oregon loss in 2020 as well.

 

[Geesworld]

Actually, I have seen Dorka play in-person twice and 11 times overall. I don't think this question of starting is an "either/or" situation. Ultimately the question is can both play together to complement each other and push the other to get better.

Overall, I would say Dorka she is better than Liv as her offense (13 pts to 9 pts) and rebounding (9.42 to 6.37) are significantly better and against better competition and that is usually what you want-more offense. Liv's defense is better with 169 blocks to Dorka's 64 shows that. And yes, Liv does have more 164 assists to 70 for Dorka while their TO's are the same (145 to 136). 3 Point shooting is a no contest as Dorka is 62/211 vs. Liv 4/22. Liv can't keep opposing defenses honest.

That said, Geno for all his bluster, is fiercely loyal to his players and would not remotely consider benching Liv until it is so apparent he has to, which given the Big East schedule will not occur. If anything, Dorka should start over Aaliyah with Aaliyah coming in to support either of them-offense for Liv or defense for Dorka.

The best part of the internet is anyone can easily look up the stat history of a player and who they played against to see the results. As has been noted, Dorka's competition has been significantly better so her numbers would have a bump factor due to that.
Dorka is Dorka Juhasz | UConn Huskies | College Women's Basketball | Yahoo! Sports
Liv is Olivia Nelson-Ododa | UConn Huskies | College Women's Basketball | Yahoo! Sports

So my question for the stat lines. Do we keep in mind usage rate of each player. I'm guessing Dorka is first or second option.

 

[CocoHusky]

Ah yes the beloved Carolyn Peck! The one who called the game as a novice verses an expert. Called Liv out several times and our fan faithful, ate it up, because Liv, was flavor the of the month. Yes Liv had two poor turnovers. No excuse for either one of them. Just like there are no excuses for the other nine turnovers in that quarter committed by the other UCONN players, that for whatever reason go unnoticed. Carolyn Peck, could have pointed out how much attention Liv was drawing and that the other players should be capitalizing off that. She could have also mentioned, Liv's aggressiveness when trying to post and not receiving he ball. Liv did receive her second foul on fighting for post position. But the great Carolyn Peck mentioned how Liv needs to get herself involved....LMBO
She could have also mentioned the little things Liv did to affect the game especially on defense. Two turnovers followed by two turnovers by perimeter players is different how?
It was clear from tip off that Geno and UCONN had no plans to use height is might, that evening. All you had to do is watch from tip off and see they had Liv playing 10 feet away from the basket.

Liv's Junior numbers are comparable to Stef Dolson Junior year, Stef would be crucified in this era of fans.

Stef Dolson was a National Champion and one of the best centers in the nation during her Junior season. Statistically her junior season was her one of her best. What are you even talking about?

 

[Geesworld]

Both Dorka and Liv are Geno's players-it is not as if Geno thinks of Dorka as an outsider as some BYers might envision. Geno is fiercely loyal to all his players, he is also fiercely competitive and wants to win. Quite honestly the only surprise to me is that Geno took until her senior season to throw down the gauntlet for Liv by stating paraphrased: " If she does not improve she in for a very long senior season". Arizona is also not Liv's first loss that should have motivated her to improve- there was the Oregon loss in 2020 as well.

Liv was surrounded by Giants when she played Oregon and Baylor. Please share with the group who our other post was?

 

[Geesworld]

Stef Dolson was a National Champion and one of the best centers in the nation during her Junior season. Statistically her junior season was her one of her best. What are you even talking about?

Look up the stats and tell me what's different. I love Stef just like I love all players from UCONN. Don't read into this as disrespect of Stef.

 

[Geesworld]

With about a quarter to go in the game between SC and NC State, Boston had 2 points. No one was criticizing her offense - was just the type of game it was. While Boston did not score much, her team won and most of the feedback about her play was positive. While last year ONO certainly had 1-2 horrid offensive games, she also played Boston well on defense and UConn won. For all those that like to focus on offense, lets not forget the many wins we had throughout the year, including South Carolina. Not many teams last year finished in the win column against SC.

Bingo!

 

[CocoHusky]

Because so many are unhappy with Liv and I am not. That is what I meant by minority.

You might want to reverse that kind of thinking. There is no consensus but I'm pretty sure the majority of posters in this thread want Liv to remain the starter. I maybe wrong but I think you may be in the majority.

 

[oldude]

Hard to fathom just how long this thread has plodded on and on. So let me introduce a multiple choice question for all to consider. There is only one correct answer, but you never know with some folks.

Which player would you prefer to have on UConn’s Roster?

A. Liv
B. Dorka
C. ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!

(Hint - Choose C)

 

[Carnac]

Liv should start.

That’s putting it out there cat! Again, no one should win or lose a starting position after that 1 exhibition game.

 

[Carnac]

I’ll tell you what.
In my book, it’s hers to lose.
I don’t know what the competition in practice looks like, but that’s where the battle will be won or lost.
Not on the court against Big East chumps.
Let all of them Liv, Dorka, Aaliyah, Piath and Deberry go at it in practice.
Dominating against a 6’1” player from Georgetown doesn’t mean diddly.
——-Sacrilege below—-
If Geno can’t develop a dominant big from this group, then that’s on HIM.
I don’t want to hear it.
Past success IS in the past .
THIS IS NOW.
Huge size up and down this roster.
If you have to bring in a 6’6” or 6’7” GUY. for them to scrimmage against, then DO IT.

Hey Stymie, why don’t you hop down off that fence and take a stand!!

 

[tchalla1]

I agree excitement is justified. Calling Liv unserviceable seems a bit harsh though. Calling for Dorka to start after watching one game against a D2 opponent is an exaggeration.
Let’s see how they both fair in the tournament. I’d love for Dorka to prove she’s better than Liv, that’s only going to make us that much better. I just haven’t seen enough yet. They looked pretty even in the exhibition against a much lesser opponent, they just have different styles.

Using the term "unserviceable" is neither unduly harsh nor overstating the overall assessment of Liv. Whatever you and I may think of her, we have the SME of Geno, who plainly said he was not satisfied with Liv's play, especially in the big games. If we use satisfied to be congruous with serviceable, then it stands that dissatisfied equates unserviceable...

 

[tchalla1]

It is not shameful at all it is perfectly justified because this debate started long before Dorka decided to come to UCONN and was based on lack of "individual" development of Liv. Liv was a starter as a sophomore. Liv failed to make a sophomore leap in her development. Specifically she failed to play with better control so as not to pick up ticky tacky fouls and be available to her team at crunch time. More significantly, she failed to impact games against ranked opponents. Liv actually impacted more games as a freshman than she did as a sophomore the most notable of which was her swat of a Mabrey shot in the ND game which help to turned the tide of that game in UCONN's favor. I have heard/read all the possible arguments/excuses for Liv's lack of development. Your argument falls in to the category of she was the only post player and the burden was too heavy . Others have put forth the argument that post players take longer to develop. Still others view every critique as a criticism, piling on, or not being supportive enough. Last season the debate continued because in certain games freshman Aaliyah Edwards outplayed Junior Liv leaving many to opine that UCONN should go to a 4 guard 1 post offense and that 1 post should be Aaliyah because Aaliyah provided more of the the post presence that UCONN needed. The debate was bound to continue because of the way UCONN's season ended. Consider that freshman Aaliyah not only outplayed Liv in the Arizona game (more points & rebounds) but the 8 points Aaliyah scored in the Arizona game was only 1 less than the total points (9) that Liv scored in the last three games of UCONN's season. Dorka is just the latest chapter in this debate but let's be clear It was Liv's inability to become a reliable starter that first started the debate and allows it to continue. Personally I'm resigned and less optimistic about Liv finally turning a corner in this her senior season. I'm also resigned to the fact that Liv is a very good player and can be and has been a solid contributor to UCONN teams. I'm also resigned to the fact that in order for UCONN to win another championship more productivity will be required from the post position. I'm optimistic that Alliyah, Dorka & Liv can provide that productivity this season.

Well said, Coco! This is the post of the month, IMO, because it's balanced, poignant and gets to the core essence of the Liv situation, which is although her play has been fair to good--sporadically very good even--regardless of the comparative, it has not been consistently up to the standard of a UCONN team, at least not a national championship-winning UCONN team... People are confusing solid with being spectacular or superior. They say when people show you who they really are, believe them. Liv has unequivocally shown us--she does not possess a complete post package, but I think Dorka will significantly compliment Liv's overall skillset. Rather than Dorka being a minus for Liv, I really think she will invigorate Liv, plus playing together will be mutually beneficial. It's going to be great!

 

[D J B]

You might want to reverse that kind of thinking. There is no consensus but I'm pretty sure the majority of posters in this thread want Liv to remain the starter. I maybe wrong but I think you may be in the majority.

Well they say that if you're a nail everyone else looks like a hammer, right? Or is it the other way around? Me, I'm more worried about power tools.

 

[HopJim]

Using the term "unserviceable" is neither unduly harsh nor overstating the overall assessment of Liv. Whatever you and I may think of her, we have the SME of Geno, who plainly said he was not satisfied with Liv's play, especially in the big games. If we use satisfied to be congruous with serviceable, then it stands that dissatisfied equates unserviceable...

???????

 

[Stymie]

You might want to reverse that kind of thinking. There is no consensus but I'm pretty sure the majority of posters in this thread want Liv to remain the starter. I maybe wrong but I think you may be in the majority.

I’d like Liv to IMPROVE so she may remain the starter.
Still have a problem giving her a pass on the last three games of last season.
That level of performance will not yield the championship.
Kinda think Geno concurs.

 

[CocoHusky]

Look up the stats and tell me what's different. I love Stef just like I love all players from UCONN. Don't read into this as disrespect of Stef.

The stats will not tell you what the difference was as clearly as I can. Junior Stef Dolson was a reliable, consistent player by the start of her Junior campaign who could be relied upon on most nights to win her position battle. That was at a time when the center/post challenge were more significant that it is today. That landscape included Britney Griner, Kelsey Boone, Natalie Achowa Chiney Ogwmike, &. Elizabeth Willams. The BE was also the best conference in WCBB.