Dishin & Swishin Podcast: Lin Dunn & Rebecca Lobo on the "UConn Dilemma"

[DishNSwish]

Sorry to disagree ...but the discussion revolved around around how to make UConn weaker and keep them off the air.

What about bringing everyone else's ability up?

And I really want to know who the "our" is in "our game". In most sports it referred to as "the game". Our is a dividing term...us vs them.

Oh I disagree with the assessment the discussion revolved around how to make UConn weaker. Both Coach Dunn and Rebecca focused on improving the competition, by studying the elite coaches, tougher OOC scheduling, not just spending time recruiting but also trying to better themselves as coaches.

 

[DishNSwish]

I need to come up to UCONN sometime this season then...

Just make sure you contact them first "Coach"

 

[Striper69]

What do you think about the point they made about Swoopes and Kidd getting the coaching jobs with no prior experience?

Right/wrong? Will they fail or succeed?

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

What do you think about the point they made about Swoopes and Kidd getting the coaching jobs with no prior experience?

Right/wrong? Will they fail or succeed?

I think they were suggesting they were very risky hires and neither is showing signs of success yet. Coaching is, like anything else, a profession. Some are clearly more talented than others, but it is a profession. Swoops and Kidd are entry level with head coaching jobs.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

UConn isn't the only team to blow out other teams. Lin Dunn complained about UConn/Cincinatti. I was looking at the top 25 schedule for Dec 29. The only game that might be interesting is Notre Dame vs Oregon St (8-3). Otherwise they all look like blow-outs and even that game will probably be a blow-out. Why not watch the "best" team (UConn). I don't want to watch those mid-games where there isn't quality play and your scores are 55-49. I don't expect to see that good of basketball from non-ranked teams. I know I wouldn't want to watch USF vs UCF unless I lived in Florida. The fact that the game is closer doesn't make it a good game to get people excited about women's basketball. However, I do think there should be an effort to show games with ranked teams. If someone happens to beat UConn, you wouldn't not want to show that game, so whenever UConn plays a ranked program that could beat UConn, you would want to show it.

I don't watch any of the mismatches on TV. Don't watch UConn against any but "real" competition; no matter how much I say I watch almost every game on TV, you won't see me watching OK vs. Samford or South Carolina against some in-state Little Sister, both games on TV this weekend.

I will watch many, not all, mid to upper level games televised, for example, Bonnies vs. Duquesne. I might turn it off it turns out to be a stinker, just as I stopped watching UConn / Duke and a couple of other games that didn't involve UConn when they became blow-outs. When games get around 20 points of domination, I'll just indicate to my wife that the "fat lady has sung" as the old saying goes.

 

[UConnCat]

Loved the discussion, particularly about coaches needing to do what's necessary to improve and Dunn talking about how she had to improve when she began coaching in the WNBA.

I'm still, however, trying to get my head around Dunn's position on the issues surrounding UConn, blow-out games and ESPN. She seems to be all over the place. Remember, she started the discussion of UConn and blow-out games during the HOF tournament played around Thanksgiving when UConn blew out Boston U, Monmouth and St Bona. Those games weren't on ESPN so we can remove that issue from the equation. Dunn (via Twitter) was bothered by UConn beating up on lesser teams by 40-50 points. What she didn't mention or tweet about, of course, were the numerous blow-outs we were seeing every night in women's basketball when ranked teams play over-matched opponents. Instead, she chose to focus only on UConn and 3 games it played over a holiday weekend.

Dunn's position has since changed to where she now focuses on UConn games shown on ESPN. But even her position on that seems a little scattered. On the one hand she seems to be suggesting that ESPN not broadcast UConn games, but when challenged on that she backs off and says that ESPN should have chosen to broadcast different UConn games ("of course show conn! but not vs some opponents they've shown!"). ESPN has shown UConn v #3 Stanford, #8 Maryland, #2 Duke and #21 Cal. What other games should ESPN have selected to broadcast? Something is seriously wrong if ESPN is being told not to broadcast #1 v #2 in WCBB which is what Dunn seemed to be saying on twitter in this exchange with Carolyn Peck:

CAROLYN PECK
@coachlindunn @DishNSwish On paper Duke vs UCONN should've been good. Don't blame us for showing, blame teams for not showing up.

Lin Dunn ‏
@CAROLYNPECK @DishNSwish aaah has the Duke-- Uconn matchup been good lately?

How can choosing not to showcase the best team in a sport ever be good for that sport?

BTW, Dunn says that fans want to be entertained by competitive games and that she finds blow-outs boring. I know WCBB and college football are vastly different, but the margin of victory in Florida State's 13 wins this season were: 28, 55, 48, 34, 63, 37, 32, 27, 56, 56, 66, 30 and 38 points. Imagine if someone suggested that ESPN no longer televise Florida State football games because its games aren't competitive enough and are boring?

 

[pap49cba]

Loved the discussion, particularly about coaches needing to do what's necessary to improve and Dunn talking about how she had to improve when she began coaching in the WNBA.

I'm still, however, trying to get my head around Dunn's position on the issues surrounding UConn, blow-out games and ESPN. She seems to be all over the place. Remember, she started the discussion of UConn and blow-out games during the HOF tournament played around Thanksgiving when UConn blew out Boston U, Monmouth and St Bona. Those games weren't on ESPN so we can remove that issue from the equation. Dunn (via Twitter) was bothered by UConn beating up on lesser teams by 40-50 points. What she didn't mention or tweet about, of course, were the numerous blow-outs we were seeing every night in women's basketball when ranked teams play over-matched opponents. Instead, she chose to focus only on UConn and 3 games it played over a holiday weekend.

Dunn's position has since changed to where she now focuses on UConn games shown on ESPN. But even her position on that seems a little scattered. On the one hand she seems to be suggesting that ESPN not broadcast UConn games, but when challenged on that she backs off and says that ESPN should have chosen to broadcast different UConn games ("of course show conn! but not vs some opponents they've shown!"). ESPN has shown UConn v #3 Stanford, #8 Maryland, #2 Duke and #21 Cal. What other games should ESPN have selected to broadcast? Something is seriously wrong if ESPN is being told not to broadcast #1 v #2 in WCBB which is what Dunn seemed to be saying on twitter in this exchange with Carolyn Peck:

CAROLYN PECK
@coachlindunn @DishNSwish On paper Duke vs UCONN should've been good. Don't blame us for showing, blame teams for not showing up.

Lin Dunn ‏
@CAROLYNPECK @DishNSwish aaah has the Duke-- Uconn matchup been good lately?

How can choosing not to showcase the best team in a sport ever be good for that sport?

BTW, Dunn says that fans want to be entertained by competitive games and that she finds blow-outs boring. I know WCBB and college football are vastly different, but the margin of victory in Florida State's 13 wins this season were: 28, 55, 48, 34, 63, 37, 32, 27, 56, 56, 66, 30 and 38 points. Imagine if someone suggested that ESPN no longer televise Florida State football games because its games aren't competitive enough and are boring?

I totally agree that Dunn is all over the place on this. She doesn't like blow-outs obviously but has no serious solution. Plus, she acts like these games are scheduled on ESPN the week before.... A point Lobo tried to refute in addressing why Cal was scheduled for the MDixon.

 

[rjp172]

Good stuff! As much as they suggest sitting in on successful teams practices and emulating what they do that's only part of the equation. Finding and successfully recruiting players that can change your program is the other component like Baylor or ND in recent years. Changing your practice habits isn't going to make you compete with the likes of KML or Stewie. You have to have players that bring some type of intangible to your team whether it be skill or attitude/competitiveness. Then, of course, you have to do something with them once you get them.

 

[johnnyc]

FWIW I've been watching teams other than UCONN and other top teams and enjoying it. Last night I watched a game between BYU and Utah State that I had recorded and thought it was pretty good.
Utah State has a guard named Jennifer Schlott that scored 44 points in the previous game and she did pretty good. I mainly recorded the game because I wanted to watch Jen Hamson the 6' 7" center for BYU. BYU just got the ball to Hamson as much as they could and Utah State played "Hack-a-Shack" but still lost.
I like watching Kansas play because of the Gonzalez sisters and Louisville because of the Schimmel sisters.

I enjoy watching other teams play also. In fact I watched BYU/Utah St. when it was on live. Kansas and St. John's are on ESPN3 a lot. But as I am watching these games the realization always sets in that UConn would kill these teams.

I wish I was able to get the PAC-12. I would like to see Oregon more. I do get the Big 10 network but they don't seem to show much WCB.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I enjoy watching other teams play also. In fact I watched BYU/Utah St. when it was on live. Kansas and St. John's are on ESPN3 a lot. But as I am watching these games the realization always sets in that UConn would kill these teams.

I wish I was able to get the PAC-12. I would like to see Oregon more. I do get the Big 10 network but they don't seem to show much WCB.

I don't watch much BYU because the station is not HiDef on my service, although I did watch 2 games (one was Arizona). I don't get ESPN3.

I wish I could get the Pac12 network, but I wouldn't bother with Oregon. Run and gun, under Paul Westhead.

The Big10 network shows a decent amount of in-conference games, at least 2 or more a week live and several next day tape, or they have in the past. They have some kind of a program for student production that they then re-televise, I think that is most of their tapes, but I usually only watch the live stuff.

 

[DishNSwish]

All of these networks and options are good news and bad news, and we covered that in the podcast. It's great we can see them if we have those networks, but with all these individual TV deals, it's virtually impossible for an ESPN or other big network to change things around and get those games on their network.

Pac 12 network for example, isn't going to give up Tennessee at Stanford, it was probably one of their biggest games.

 

[Striper69]

I enjoy watching other teams play also. In fact I watched BYU/Utah St. when it was on live. Kansas and St. John's are on ESPN3 a lot. But as I am watching these games the realization always sets in that UConn would kill these teams.

I wish I was able to get the PAC-12. I would like to see Oregon more. I do get the Big 10 network but they don't seem to show much WCB.

If Hamson would start hitting all her free throws then they might have a chance against UCONN. I like their approach but she should learn the Jabbar Sky Hook. So easy to shoot and noone could stop it.

It's fun watching a team like Utah St. cause Schlott could get hot and score 40+ points again.

Kansas is playing mostly freshmen so they wouldn't have a chance against UCONN.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Podcast was a mix of insightful comments and suggestions and other stuff from Dunn that didn't really have a strong connection to reality about game broadcasting, as noted in the comments above. Her heart's obviously in the right place but much of what she said was not well thought out and her complaints don't necessarily have a quick solution. But the calls for the following are sound:

• Education. Yeah, if you are a coach and you want to play at the top level, learn what you need to know to face the top 5 teams and have a chance to win instead of conceding that your team will lose by a huge amount beforehand. But getting that education can take a long time as with Muffet playing UConn for many years before she reached the level that allowed ND to compete effectively, and it took her another decade after that to put together the system that could repeatedly beat UConn, whether Husky fans liked all of the tactics or not. But putting together the complete education package is tough, and maybe Geno, Muffet, and Tara have to put together a detailed online course dealing with practices and game management for some type of WCBB institute.
• Preparation. Unless teams put in the work in practice to get ready for the big contests, they don't have much chance against a top 5 team. But though UConn's team of two years ago was not at the level of this year's, it was still stunning when St. John's took down the Huskies at Storrs. So clearly teams can compete with Geno's squads sometimes even when they are not a top 10 team and don't have a bunch of All-Americans. From what Lobo and Dunn were discussing, it doesn't sound like most teams are ready yet to put in the practice work and create a flexible enough system to compete at the top. If the defenses of teams like UConn, ND, and Stanford see that you have only a few simple slow-moving offensive options, you're going to end up shooting 30% against them.
• Coaches. As noted in the podcast, get the best youngish coaches, whether they be guys, Geno's ex-assistants, or whoever is eager to make the mark in WCBB. For too many years the WCBB lived in the ghetto of Pat's old-girls coaching club that were pretty hostile to the men moving in. That's understandable when many of them fought the good fight before and after Title IX was put into effect, but at some point the game had to grow beyond those who had paid their dues and go towards the coaches who could improve the game. It doesn't have to be gender-related, but it seems that many times the main criteria for being a WCBB coach was that you had been a star player, and the two don't always meld well. But as Lobo and Dunn noted in the Foster case, schools have to take the success of their WCBB teams seriously enough to find good coaches and see that they have the resources to keep developing.

And note that part of the big problem about UConn dominance this year sprang up because Stanford did not do its job like they did last year when they beat a superior reigning champ early in the season, after which Baylor raged through its schedule by huge margins like this year's Huskies, winning all of their games by double-digits before their finale except for two games against UConn and OK St. UConn's current dominance only extends through about 20 games spanning two seasons, but all that bulky trophy baggage that the Huskies have to drag behind them from past years makes it seem like they never lose.

 

[pap49cba]

But as Lobo and Dunn noted in the Foster case, schools have to take the success of their WCBB teams seriously enough to find good coaches and see that they have the resources to keep developing.

I thought this was an interesting comment but I couldn't help wondering if OSU would have made the same decision if the coach had been a woman with Foster's record.

 

[bbsamjj]

The coaching conversation was a little all over the place as well. At one hand, they applauded OSU for firing Foster because the school decided Big 10 Championship wasn't enough. On the other hand, Lobo was critical for the Tulsa (I think) firing, saying, basically--who are they gonna find that is better?

The underlying problem was that there needs to be more coaching talent in WCBB. Geno said the Cal coach has done it the "right way"--working her way up the assistant ladder, and others have done that as well--with mixed success.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I thought this was an interesting comment but I couldn't help wondering if OSU would have made the same decision if the coach had been a woman with Foster's record.

Not sure there will ever be an opportunity to do that, at least not on Foster's level. As you note, if a female coach has that type of record she's an institution. Perhaps a somewhat similar comparison could be made to CViv's situation, but Rutgers has gotten to higher levels in the not so distant past even if the past few years have made the 2007 NC game seem more distant. There are a few other women coaches whose teams have appeared to have stagnated at a first of second round NCAA game for four to five years, but I'm guessing the schools think that's fine and all the team needs to do for the admin to be happy.

 

[AllHusky529]

Here's an idea, how about those pulling the strings, or have the influence on those that do - namely the media, how about they use UConn's dominance to "sell" the sport to a broader audience? How many drawn out, over-analyzed discussions were had on ESPN and it's programs when the Pats were going 18 - 0? How many recycled segments were put together when LeBron made "The Decision"? My point is if the have the wherewithal to invest in sensationalizing such things, why not use the truly historic nature of UConn's 2013-14 run to draw attention to the game of WCBB?
There are plenty of storylines they could come up with to introduce other good teams like ND, MD, TN, Duke, Lou, Ky, etc. And how many times are undefeated/ dominating teams celebrated in other sports? Why is it when it's WCBB it's a problem?
And as for recruiting, didn't we just have a one recruit class? So apparently the talent is going elsewhere. How many recruits has Geno lost to Duke, Md, Nd, Tn, Stan, Ky? The spread of talent, or the lack of it, has nothing to do with it. It's coaching, period! You can have 5 Stewies and if you don't coach em up you will lose! Well, maybe not with 5, lol. But, here's an example of poor philosophy by a coach...Tn vs Stan, the Tn post-players were 13/23 from the field - this includes #1 2013UConn recruit 6'6class M. Russell, the 2 starting guards (Simmons & Massengale) 9/31from the field. Ladies n gentlemen this is nothing new.
At this point, UConn is the standard bearer and they should be looked to to showcase what's great n appealing about WCBB, not used to argue what's wrong with it! If the rest of the D-1 teams don't like what UConn is doing, then they need to get with their coaches and AD's and encourage them to step up...because UConn isn't bowing out ! Go Huskies!

 

[VAUConnFan]

VAUConn Fan: I disagree.

The main reason UCONN is such a power is because of Geno. If anyone else were coaching then they could be beaten.

No doubt the program is a power because of Coach Auriemma, but this year's team compared to the rest of WCBB, this season, is like Secretariat. An apprentice jockey could have ridden Secretariat to the Triple Crown.

 

[VAUConnFan]

What do you think about the point they made about Swoopes and Kidd getting the coaching jobs with no prior experience?

Right/wrong? Will they fail or succeed?

Bill Russell, Dave Debusschere. Larry Bird, Pat Riley, Wes Unseld, Pat Summit, C. Vivian Stringer, Richard Williams; Just off the top of my head. Whether it is right or wrong is only important if a long time assistant gets passed over for bogus reasons. Very good experienced coaches have failed. Very inexperienced coaches have succeeded.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

. . . I wish I was able to get the PAC-12. I would like to see Oregon more. I do get the Big 10 network but they don't seem to show much WCB.

I suspect that both the Pac-10 and Big-10 networks will be showing more women's games
now that the conference schedules have begun, and the football season is over.

 

[UcMiami]

Good stuff! As much as they suggest sitting in on successful teams practices and emulating what they do that's only part of the equation. Finding and successfully recruiting players that can change your program is the other component like Baylor or ND in recent years. Changing your practice habits isn't going to make you compete with the likes of KML or Stewie. You have to have players that bring some type of intangible to your team whether it be skill or attitude/competitiveness. Then, of course, you have to do something with them once you get them.

But ... getting great players and not giving them the coaching to succeed ends up with early round losses to Ball State or exits in the regionals year after year. And good coaching takes teams like Louisville and Cal to the FF with players who are not as 'talented' as the teams they defeated to get there.
It will be interesting to see what happens at UNC because they just got a TASSK like class but not a lot of people are expecting them to have TASSK like success. Duke has had a string of top three classes but still lost to UCONN BY 20, TN continued to recruit up a storm after Parker, but ..., etc. Geno gets very good players and a few exceptional ones, but they get better every year he has them. The same cannot be said about most other WBB college coaches. Same can be said for Muffet and Tara - ND is not loaded with superstar HS players and never has been nor is Stanford, but they compete, they get better, and they demand effort from their kids.
People complain about some of the blow outs we've had this year, but I actually enjoyed watching some of those teams more than Duke, because they were never going to win, but they fought hard for 40 minutes and their coach never stopped caring about each and every possession. And they never stopped teaching. So maybe they do not win against Uconn, but maybe they go back to their mid major and kick some .

 

[Icebear]

One question:

Since Geno seems to be so competitive would he welcome other coaches to learn from his practices? Maybe he likes dominating the game.

The suggestion that other coaches learn from the elite coaches was the main point of the conversation to me.

Yes, he welcomes teams that ask to watch his practices numerous times and has for many years.

 

[Tonyc]

The problem in the women's game with coaching is there seems to be no accountability. Some of these coach's seem to coach forever without winning anything or taking their program to a new level. If Geno never got a 7 digit salary most of the coach's would still be making less then $100,000 a year. When Geno got the big salary so did many other big name coach's. The problem is many of those coach's haven't done much lately. I compare that to a thermostat. You set a thermostat at 70degrees and the house heats up. When it hits 70 in the house the thermostat shuts off. That's the way it is with many coach's with high salaries and long term contracts. When they get that big contract they shut down or slow down and they've reached their goal. With Geno its not about the money. Much like many of the top coach's and players in all sports. Its about championships and records.

 

[easttexastrash]

FWIW I've been watching teams other than UCONN and other top teams and enjoying it. Last night I watched a game between BYU and Utah State that I had recorded and thought it was pretty good.
Utah State has a guard named Jennifer Schlott that scored 44 points in the previous game and she did pretty good. I mainly recorded the game because I wanted to watch Jen Hamson the 6' 7" center for BYU. BYU just got the ball to Hamson as much as they could and Utah State played "Hack-a-Shack" but still lost.
I like watching Kansas play because of the Gonzalez sisters and Louisville because of the Schimmel sisters.

I enjoy watching almost any game that is not a blowout. I have watched other teams this year and thoroughly enjoyed them.

Unless you are watching "your" team it is a real snooze fest to watch a layup drill when one team is just blowing another team out of the gym.

 

[David 76]

Let's not get too defensive because a Coach who has dedicated her life to women's basketball is concerned about our dominance. Unlike college football, WBB is still trying to win over fans. And when you are #1, you have a target on your back. I'm sure UCLA had to put up with a lot of garbage. And, except from those of us that are fortunate to be Yankee fans, the Yankees don't get a lot of love.

 

[easttexastrash]

Let's not get too defensive because a Coach who has dedicated her life to women's basketball is concerned about our dominance. Unlike college basketball, WBB is still trying to win over fans. And when you are #1, you have a target on your back. I'm sure UCLA had to put up with a lot of garbage. And, except from those of us that are fortunate to be Yankee fans, the Yankees don't get a lot of love.

This type of dominance is so unique that when you are part of it, it's such a splendid thing that it is hard to imagine that others may find it to be bad for the sport. But bad for the sport, IMO, means people saying "why watch when I already know what the outcome will be?"

Not sure of this, but what were the ratings like for UCONN vs Louisville in comparison to the previous 5 years?

As was pointed out, UCLA had close games, which probably made their situation different. Ive hated Baylor's schedule for the fact that it made many of their game completely irrelevant. And who cares if they are the highest scoring team in the nation if they aren't playing anyone. I never cite any of their team stats because they mean nothing due to the level of competition.

 

[easttexastrash]

Where are all these coaches that are as brilliant as Geno and coach K hanging out? Would CD be able to go to UT and compete with Geno?

Game against Baylor, do you want to see a good game or a blowout that would have viewers stop watching the game at half time?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Let's not get too defensive because a Coach who has dedicated her life to women's basketball is concerned about our dominance. Unlike college basketball, WBB is still trying to win over fans. And when you are #1, you have a target on your back. I'm sure UCLA had to put up with a lot of garbage. And, except from those of us that are fortunate to be Yankee fans, the Yankees don't get a lot of love.

What's love got to do with it? Everyone is just talking about greenbacks and fans in seats and eyeballs on TV sets. I have never heard a single piece of purported fact from the "woe is the UConn blowout" (most of them jealous schmucks) that would indicate that hordes of sports fans would be rushing to their view screen to watch a nailbitingly close Mississippi vs Alabama game instead of a UConn vs Duke blowout. Pundits like Dunn have a lot to complain about but no answers and even fewer cogent thoughts about that issue. "Well y'all, just get out there and get better and give UConn a game." Doesn't work that way, and I know Dunn is in the early phases of grappling with the issue and trying to make sense of it all, but she's been around women's basketball for many decades and her understanding of the situation of WCBB still seems a bit fuzzy.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Not sure of this, but what were the ratings like for UCONN vs Louisville in comparison to the previous 5 years?

Yep, ratings for the NC game were down a bit last year, but it's interesting to read what Sports Media Watch gave as the reason for that. Seems there was this team called Baylor with a star named Britney Griner who bailed out early. After that, the ratings for WCBB tournament games plummeted. I guess that is why the WCBB should never put a big egg in one basket, because if Humpty Dumpty falls, so do the ratings.

 

[UcMiami]

What's love got to do with it? Everyone is just talking about greenbacks and fans in seats and eyeballs on TV sets. I have never heard a single piece of purported fact from the "woe is the UConn blowout" (most of them jealous schmucks) that would indicate that hordes of sports fans would be rushing to their view screen to watch a nailbitingly close Mississippi vs Alabama game instead of a UConn vs Duke blowout. Pundits like Dunn have a lot to complain about but no answers and even fewer cogent thoughts about that issue. "Well y'all, just get out there and get better and give UConn a game." Doesn't work that way, and I know Dunn is in the early phases of grappling with the issue and trying to make sense of it all, but she's been around women's basketball for many decades and her understanding of the situation of WCBB still seems a bit fuzzy.

No question that the Uconn/LV games were 'the game' that everyone watched each year. When those went away, Uconn/Stanford, Uconn/ND, TN/Stanford, Uconn/Baylor, etc. became on a rotating basis the GAME. And to some degree there does need to be some suspense in a sports season to make the audience grow. So in that way, I can understand the concern being expressed. I think the NCAA will have some added fire this year as the story of Geno going for the record championship and doing it in TN will have some legs to it. And if Uconn succeeds this year, then story of trying to tie Wooden will also get some play next year. But a great champion is better for having a great opponent (see Wilt/Russell or Celtics/Lakers) and unless Louisville or ND can step up to the plate later this year, then there will not be much suspense. Pray ND remains undefeated as that would be a good story line for sure, but I doubt they roll through the ACC without one stumble at least.
Is this Uconn's fault, no.