Dishin & Swishin Podcast: Lin Dunn & Rebecca Lobo on the "UConn Dilemma"

[mhshuskies]

The best way to develop a team to reach the elite status may be to get Lynn Dunn for your coach. She was on the way to building a top program at Purdue when the dunderhead administrators forced her out. Carolyn Peck came in and won a championship with what Coach Dunn had built!

 

[ASweet3781]

I did like the discussion and they brought up some interesting points. They really didn't address the issue that makes UConn so dominant in some years.

When you sign #1 Tina Charles and #1 Maya Moore in back to back years, there's not much that can be done. Ditto when you sign #1 Kaleena Lewis and #1 Breanna Stewart in back to back years.

Game changers in WCBB can be counted on 2 hands. UConn got 4 of them between 2006-2012. You can't really stop some dominating years when that happens.

 

[stwainfan]

Isn't part of the reason that there are not more top teams. I mean teams that can win a championship. That some of the big colleges don't support WCBB. Some of them support football or men's basketball ect. I think WCBB needs more colleges supporting their teams.

 

[hoophuskee]

Loved the discussion, particularly about coaches needing to do what's necessary to improve and Dunn talking about how she had to improve when she began coaching in the WNBA.

I'm still, however, trying to get my head around Dunn's position on the issues surrounding UConn, blow-out games and ESPN. She seems to be all over the place. Remember, she started the discussion of UConn and blow-out games during the HOF tournament played around Thanksgiving when UConn blew out Boston U, Monmouth and St Bona. Those games weren't on ESPN so we can remove that issue from the equation. Dunn (via Twitter) was bothered by UConn beating up on lesser teams by 40-50 points. What she didn't mention or tweet about, of course, were the numerous blow-outs we were seeing every night in women's basketball when ranked teams play over-matched opponents. Instead, she chose to focus only on UConn and 3 games it played over a holiday weekend.

Dunn's position has since changed to where she now focuses on UConn games shown on ESPN. But even her position on that seems a little scattered. On the one hand she seems to be suggesting that ESPN not broadcast UConn games, but when challenged on that she backs off and says that ESPN should have chosen to broadcast different UConn games ("of course show conn! but not vs some opponents they've shown!"). ESPN has shown UConn v #3 Stanford, #8 Maryland, #2 Duke and #21 Cal. What other games should ESPN have selected to broadcast? Something is seriously wrong if ESPN is being told not to broadcast #1 v #2 in WCBB which is what Dunn seemed to be saying on twitter in this exchange with Carolyn Peck:

CAROLYN PECK
@coachlindunn @DishNSwish On paper Duke vs UCONN should've been good. Don't blame us for showing, blame teams for not showing up.

Lin Dunn ‏
@CAROLYNPECK @DishNSwish aaah has the Duke-- Uconn matchup been good lately?

How can choosing not to showcase the best team in a sport ever be good for that sport?

BTW, Dunn says that fans want to be entertained by competitive games and that she finds blow-outs boring. I know WCBB and college football are vastly different, but the margin of victory in Florida State's 13 wins this season were: 28, 55, 48, 34, 63, 37, 32, 27, 56, 56, 66, 30 and 38 points. Imagine if someone suggested that ESPN no longer televise Florida State football games because its games aren't competitive enough and are boring?

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C'mon people. Just reading this comment back to Carolyn Peck- isn't it completely - and I mean completely --absurd? I have to say- this isn't meant to be personal at all - but how can anyone take Lin Dunn seriously ?

You know what this is like saying?

LeBron James as a high school senior commits to a powerhouse school like Duke or Kentucky. There are other 1st team college all-americans and other high school all-americans with a chance to be all-americans when he joins. BUTTTTT let's not show LeBron James because it will more than likely be a blowout. Especially if we look at history between LeBron's chosen school and the team he is playing. Even if they are number 2 at the time but LBJ's team has blown them out lately--don't show LeBron or the game.

What's embarrasing"for our game" is this professional championship coach saying something so absurd.

Do we realize how ridiculous her position is? She needs to stick to the WNBA.

And just to let someone like Lin Dunn know - I for one enjoy the WNBA games. I recognize players. There is NO WAY I am going to enjoy watching Coppin State/Utah State just because the score is close. It's why I don't watch very many men's games. The quality has dropped. And I don't watch European basketball for example on WNBA TV.

What Lin Dunn likes I won't watch. When UCONN at some point is no longer super elite - I still won't watch Utah State/Coppin State just because it's close. But I will watch 1 vs. 2 if I can.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

The problem is that Coach Dunn is putting several separate issues together. The only one she is off-base on has to do with broadcasting UConn games. The upsides include - showcasing great play, a large fan base, and name recognition to get the casual fan to turn on the game. The down-side is that you will lose the casual audience and most other women's basketball fans once the game turns into a blow-out; OTH you still retain your core UConn fan audience. And the amount of one team dominance will certainly turn off some casual viewers.

That said, I think that ESPN and other carriers do try to carry theoretically competitive games. Who knew UConn was going to be so dominant this season - but ok, I do question UConn vs. Cincy as a national game, which is probably due to the coaching connection. But in general, you see Tennessee play Vandy or Georgia, not Alabama; you see UNC play Duke or Maryland or Tech, not Clemson, etc. on national telecasts.

The separate issues of teams needing to step up, etc. I think are all valid; as is her view of what WBB fans prefer to watch.

 

[UConnCat]

The problem is that Coach Dunn is putting several separate issues together. The only one she is off-base on has to do with broadcasting UConn games. The upsides include - showcasing great play, a large fan base, and name recognition to get the casual fan to turn on the game. The down-side is that you will lose the casual audience and most other women's basketball fans once the game turns into a blow-out; OTH you still retain your core UConn fan audience. And the amount of one team dominance will certainly turn off some casual viewers.

That said, I think that ESPN and other carriers do try to carry theoretically competitive games. Who knew UConn was going to be so dominant this season - but ok, I do question UConn vs. Cincy as a national game, which is probably due to the coaching connection. But in general, you see Tennessee play Vandy or Georgia, not Alabama; you see UNC play Duke or Maryland or Tech, not Clemson, etc. on national telecasts.

The separate issues of teams needing to step up, etc. I think are all valid; as is her view of what WBB fans prefer to watch.

I enjoyed listening to Dunn's views on several issues during the podcast but I do think she veered off track when talking about UConn, blow-outs and ESPN.

As for Sunday's UConn/Cincy match-up, I doubt ESPN's selection of this had much to do Geno and Jamelle and more about counting on UConn fans to tune in and watch. It's a 5 pm slot on a NFL football Sunday and there aren't a lot of games to choose from. The other games involving top 25 teams on Sunday (throughout the afternoon) include:

Tenn v Lipscomb
Hartford v Penn State
Oral Roberts v Nebraska
SMU v Louisville (on ESPNU @ 3pm)
Grambling State v Kentucky
Oral Roberts v Nebraska
Tx-Pan Am v Ok State
Samford v OK
Southern Utah v Colorado
Lafayette v California
Notre Dame v Oregon State

 

[pinotbear]

No doubt the program is a power because of Coach Auriemma, but this year's team compared to the rest of WCBB, this season, is like Secretariat. An apprentice jockey could have ridden Secretariat to the Triple Crown.

In some years, a horse like Secretariat might not need a good jock to win the Triple Crown - but, not the year Secretariat won. People forget how good Sham was. Not only did Sham finish second in the Derby and Preakness, but it was a close second - in fact, it may still be true that the second-fastest time ever run in a Derby was Sham's 1:59 4/5, in losing to Secretariat by 2 lengths.

Folks remember Secretariat destroying the Belmont field by 31 lengths, and think that he was similarly dominant in the Derby and Preakness: he wasn't.

 

[DobbsRover2]

The best way to develop a team to reach the elite status may be to get Lynn Dunn for your coach. She was on the way to building a top program at Purdue when the dunderhead administrators forced her out. Carolyn Peck came in and won a championship with what Coach Dunn had built!

Probably shouldn't overdo the credit there, though Dunn did coach the incredible backcourt duo of Stephanie White-McCarty and Ukari Figgs for one year when they were freshmen. Dunn was forced out after the 1995-96 season, and the championship wouldn't come until three years later after first Nell Forten and then Peck coached the previous two seasons. Only two of the six main players for the Purdue played under Dunn, and half of them including Katie Douglas and center Camille Cooper played only under Peck through 1999, though obviously as sophomores that year it was Forten who recruited them.

So it was mixed bag of credit for that NC. One thing to be said for Peck was that from the beginning of the season, she had the Boilermakers thinking of one goal, the national championship, and that was coming off three straight UTenn NCs with Holdsclaw and Catchings leading the 1998-99 squad. Of course, since Peck was contracted to leave Purdue for the WNBA as soon as the season ended, it was then or never for her and Purdue. But with White-McCarty, Figgs, and Douglas roaming the backcourt, part of the key to success was not getting in the way of greatness and pumping the inspirational statements, the second of which Peck has always been good at.

 

[jsloanjr]

Coaches need to do a better job of in game and pre game coaching...........IMO, Geno could take the Duke team and make it a National Champ.......Coaches do make a difference......Coach P is a very good recruiter and a poor in game coach....Her players do not get better from year 1 to year 4 or 5..........This is the reason Europe and the WNBA look at UCONN players first..........

 

[UConnCat]

Probably shouldn't overdo the credit there, though Dunn did coach the incredible backcourt duo of Stephanie White-McCarty and Ukari Figgs for one year when they were freshmen. Dunn was forced out after the 1995-96 season, and the championship wouldn't come until three years later after first Nell Forten and then Peck coached the previous two seasons. Only two of the six main players for the Purdue played under Dunn, and half of them including Katie Douglas and center Camille Cooper played only under Peck through 1999, though obviously as sophomores that year it was Forten who recruited them.

So it was mixed bag of credit for that NC. One thing to be said for Peck was that from the beginning of the season, she had the Boilermakers thinking of one goal, the national championship, and that was coming off three straight UTenn NCs with Holdsclaw and Catchings leading the 1998-99 squad. Of course, since Peck was contracted to leave Purdue for the WNBA as soon as the season ended, it was then or never for her and Purdue. But with White-McCarty, Figgs, and Douglas roaming the backcourt, part of the key to success was not getting in the way of greatness and pumping the inspirational statements, the second of which Peck has always been good at.

After Dunn and asst Machelle Joseph were fired, 5 Purdue players asked for permission to contact other schools regarding a transfer. Ukari Figgs was among the 5 but obviously chose to stay at Purdue. Summer Erb transferred to NC State. Nicole Erickson and Michelle Van Gorp transferred to Duke and were key players on the 1998-1999 Duke team that upset Tennessee in the Elite 8 and stopped the Lady Vol's run of 3 consecutive National Championships. Duke headed to its first Final Four which was in San Jose and it was while attending this Final Four that Jamelle Elliott learned of her mother's tragic death.

 

[bbsamjj]

I did like the discussion and they brought up some interesting points. They really didn't address the issue that makes UConn so dominant in some years.

When you sign #1 Tina Charles and #1 Maya Moore in back to back years, there's not much that can be done. Ditto when you sign #1 Kaleena Lewis and #1 Breanna Stewart in back to back years.

Game changers in WCBB can be counted on 2 hands. UConn got 4 of them between 2006-2012. You can't really stop some dominating years when that happens.

I think that is the issue that is most frustrating for WCBB fans/coaches--you (mostly) need a game changer to win a championship, and when a team has 2 (as UConn has), it's almost impossible to stop.

If you look at the last 10 women's national champions, I'd say 7 of them had "game changers:"

2004 UConn--DT
2005 Baylor--no game changer
2006 Maryland--no "game changer" though 3-4 future WNBA players on that roster
2007/2008 UT--Parker
2009/2010 UConn--Moore and Charles (though while Charles was ranked #1, she made herself into a game changer, while Moore/DT/Parker all started out that way)
2011 Texas A&M--no game changer
2012 Baylor--Griner
2013 UConn--Stewart, KML (though I put Stewart at a higher game changer category than KML)

It is true that other teams have talent--some of them have a lot of it. But to compete with UConn, and heck, even to almost win a national championship, you need a game changer. When UConn had the their championship "drought" from 2005-2008, it was because they lacked a great, game-changing player on their roster (Strother was supposed to be that, but never lived up to her #1 ranking). Similarly, UT got back in the groove when they found their game changer Parker. Heck even to get to the Final Four it helps to have a game changer. Why have Stanford and ND been to the final four so often? Yes, great coaching. But both had top 3 players (coming out of hs) in Diggins and Ogwumike (who may have been #1).

Talent isn't all of it. Augustus/Fowles should have probably won a title (or at least got to a championship game). So should have the Latta/Larkins/Little UNC teams (who did get to two Final Fours). That Stanford team with Appel/Peterson/Ogwumike probably could only have been beat by that Moore/Charles UConn team. And that Harding/Bales/Waner Duke team was just the product of absurdly bad luck versus Maryland and Rutgers (I've watched that RU-Duke game a dozen times, and there were A LOT of things that went right for RU, even before Harding's missed FTs).

 

[hoophuskee]

The problem is that Coach Dunn is putting several separate issues together. The only one she is off-base on has to do with broadcasting UConn games. The upsides include - showcasing great play, a large fan base, and name recognition to get the casual fan to turn on the game. The down-side is that you will lose the casual audience and most other women's basketball fans once the game turns into a blow-out; OTH you still retain your core UConn fan audience. And the amount of one team dominance will certainly turn off some casual viewers.

That said, I think that ESPN and other carriers do try to carry theoretically competitive games. Who knew UConn was going to be so dominant this season - but ok, I do question UConn vs. Cincy as a national game, which is probably due to the coaching connection. But in general, you see Tennessee play Vandy or Georgia, not Alabama; you see UNC play Duke or Maryland or Tech, not Clemson, etc. on national telecasts.

The separate issues of teams needing to step up, etc. I think are all valid; as is her view of what WBB fans prefer to watch.

I don't believe "the voice" has credibility. It's like Andrew Bargnani being the voice of strategy basketball when he just recently took a 3-pointer with his team up by only 2 with about 12 seconds left in which the Knicks could have run out the clock. The other points she makes are irrelevant if she can't understand that if you have a chance to show 1 vs 2 --you do it. As stated above if the voice is saying in any fashion "don't show LeBron" then there needs to be another voice regardless of the other points that are made. Get someone else with more credibility to make the points. IMO her view would continue to pursue "don't show LeBron- don't show LeBron - don't show LeBron, yet still speak of "what's good for the game."

 

[DobbsRover2]

After Dunn and asst Machelle Joseph were fired, 5 Purdue players asked for permission to contact other schools regarding a transfer. Ukari Figgs was among the 5 but obviously chose to stay at Purdue. Summer Erb transferred to NC State. Nicole Erickson and Michelle Van Gorp transferred to Duke and were key players on the 1998-1999 Duke team that upset Tennessee in the Elite 8 and stopped the Lady Vol's run of 3 consecutive National Championships. Duke headed to its first Final Four which was in San Jose and it was while attending this Final Four that Jamelle Elliott learned of her mother's tragic death.

We'll never know what would have happened if Dunn had been able to stay at Purdue with a really talented group. Erickson and Van Gorp would have been gone before the 1998-99 year if they had stayed at Purdue, and whether the team could have become strong enough to beat out UTenn in the 1996-97 or 1997-98 years under Dunn with a full cast is unknowable. They reached the 2nd round under Fortner the next year after the defections, and reached the Elite 8 under Peck with the help of a good group recruited by Fortner. Possibly Dunn could have taken the Boilermakers all the way, but Peck was the one who got the chance to do it over the two ex-Purdue players of Dunn's at Duke.

 

[Striper69]

Bill Russell, Dave Debusschere. Larry Bird, Pat Riley, Wes Unseld, Pat Summit, C. Vivian Stringer, Richard Williams; Just off the top of my head. Whether it is right or wrong is only important if a long time assistant gets passed over for bogus reasons. Very good experienced coaches have failed. Very inexperienced coaches have succeeded.

So you're saying it doesn't make a difference.

 

[mhshuskies]

I think that is the issue that is most frustrating for WCBB fans/coaches--you (mostly) need a game changer to win a championship, and when a team has 2 (as UConn has), it's almost impossible to stop.

If you look at the last 10 women's national champions, I'd say 7 of them had "game changers:"

2004 UConn--DT
2005 Baylor--no game changer
2006 Maryland--no "game changer" though 3-4 future WNBA players on that roster
2007/2008 UT--Parker
2009/2010 UConn--Moore and Charles (though while Charles was ranked #1, she made herself into a game changer, while Moore/DT/Parker all started out that way)
2011 Texas A&M--no game changer
2012 Baylor--Griner
2013 UConn--Stewart, KML (though I put Stewart at a higher game changer category than KML)

It is true that other teams have talent--some of them have a lot of it. But to compete with UConn, and heck, even to almost win a national championship, you need a game changer. When UConn had the their championship "drought" from 2005-2008, it was because they lacked a great, game-changing player on their roster (Strother was supposed to be that, but never lived up to her #1 ranking). Similarly, UT got back in the groove when they found their game changer Parker. Heck even to get to the Final Four it helps to have a game changer. Why have Stanford and ND been to the final four so often? Yes, great coaching. But both had top 3 players (coming out of hs) in Diggins and Ogwumike (who may have been #1).

Talent isn't all of it. Augustus/Fowles should have probably won a title (or at least got to a championship game). So should have the Latta/Larkins/Little UNC teams (who did get to two Final Fours). That Stanford team with Appel/Peterson/Ogwumike probably could only have been beat by that Moore/Charles UConn team. And that Harding/Bales/Waner Duke team was just the product of absurdly bad luck versus Maryland and Rutgers (I've watched that RU-Duke game a dozen times, and there were A LOT of things that went right for RU, even before Harding's missed FTs).

 

[mhshuskies]

I think that is the issue that is most frustrating for WCBB fans/coaches--you (mostly) need a game changer to win a championship, and when a team has 2 (as UConn has), it's almost impossible to stop.

If you look at the last 10 women's national champions, I'd say 7 of them had "game changers:"

2004 UConn--DT
2005 Baylor--no game changer
2006 Maryland--no "game changer" though 3-4 future WNBA players on that roster
2007/2008 UT--Parker
2009/2010 UConn--Moore and Charles (though while Charles was ranked #1, she made herself into a game changer, while Moore/DT/Parker all started out that way)
2011 Texas A&M--no game changer
2012 Baylor--Griner
2013 UConn--Stewart, KML (though I put Stewart at a higher game changer category than KML)

It is true that other teams have talent--some of them have a lot of it. But to compete with UConn, and heck, even to almost win a national championship, you need a game changer. When UConn had the their championship "drought" from 2005-2008, it was because they lacked a great, game-changing player on their roster (Strother was supposed to be that, but never lived up to her #1 ranking). Similarly, UT got back in the groove when they found their game changer Parker. Heck even to get to the Final Four it helps to have a game changer. Why have Stanford and ND been to the final four so often? Yes, great coaching. But both had top 3 players (coming out of hs) in Diggins and Ogwumike (who may have been #1).

Talent isn't all of it. Augustus/Fowles should have probably won a title (or at least got to a championship game). So should have the Latta/Larkins/Little UNC teams (who did get to two Final Fours). That Stanford team with Appel/Peterson/Ogwumike probably could only have been beat by that Moore/Charles UConn team. And that Harding/Bales/Waner Duke team was just the product of absurdly bad luck versus Maryland and Rutgers (I've watched that RU-Duke game a dozen times, and there were A LOT of things that went right for RU, even before Harding's missed FTs).

And nd had a "game changer" (or at least one of the "Three to see") but couldn't get it done. Coaching not good enough?

 

[Striper69]

Just make sure you contact them first "Coach"

After watching the 30 for 30 episode about Paul Westhead I don't know if I'd want to try to be a BB coach. He won a NBA championship and was fired the next season because Magic didn't like him. Then he bounced around until he got Hank Gaithers and Bo Kimball and probably would've won the NCAA championship if Hank hadn't died on the court. On top of that he almost got sued because he let Hank play.
How long did he stay with the PHX Mercury and why didn't he stay with them?

Now as we all know he coaches Oregon.

Guess you gotta love the game but it must be hard to earn a living doing it.

 

[Striper69]

No doubt the program is a power because of Coach Auriemma, but this year's team compared to the rest of WCBB, this season, is like Secretariat. An apprentice jockey could have ridden Secretariat to the Triple Crown.

I'm not so sure about that.

I've watched the Utah State- BYU game again and I think that if BYU has a pretty good team in addition to the 6' 7" center Jen Hamson. If they can jell a little more I think they can give UCONN a good game if they meet in the NCAAs. If Hamson can improve her free throw shooting and make enough of the short range shots she gets then they can go far.
I've recorded this weekend's game but haven't watched it yet. I think Hamson may be the sleeper draft pick this year and maybe should be #1. She's raw and has a lot of potential.
I still think Jennifer Schlott could be as good as Simms. They just need to learn how to set her up when the other team glues a defender on her. 5' 6" and gets a "Triangle and Two" defense along with another girl on Utah State. LOL

 

[bbsamjj]

And nd had a "game changer" (or at least one of the "Three to see") but couldn't get it done. Coaching not good enough?

As I said, Diggins was a very, very good player, and she took her team to three final fours and 2 championship games. But she went third in the draft, and that's because she was behind two game changers--Griner and Del Donne.

I put Diggins more on a Candice Wiggins level--All American, but not "game changer" level.

 

[Striper69]

After watching the UCONN- Cinn game it seems to me that their argument that other coaches should go see UCONN practices to help their programs doesn't seem to hold water. Cinnci's coach was Geno's assistant coach and it didn't help her very much. The game started out 16-0. They couldn't get past UCONN's full court press nor could they get or make good shots.

 

[Icebear]

After watching the UCONN- Cinn game it seems to me that their argument that other coaches should go see UCONN practices to help their programs doesn't seem to hold water. Cinnci's coach was Geno's assistant coach and it didn't help her very much. The game started out 16-0. They couldn't get past UCONN's full court press nor could they get or make good shots.

Think about it some more. Consider the available talent at Cincinati. Maybe the issue isn't their practice habits but the skill level of the players in those practices. I thought Jamelle's team fought hard to compete. Pracxtice is probably where that attitude was formed.

 

[Striper69]

Sorry but I'm not buying it.

 

[DobbsRover2]

After watching the UCONN- Cinn game it seems to me that their argument that other coaches should go see UCONN practices to help their programs doesn't seem to hold water. Cinnci's coach was Geno's assistant coach and it didn't help her very much. The game started out 16-0. They couldn't get past UCONN's full court press nor could they get or make good shots.

It's not always wise to base your opinion about a team and WCBB practices in general off of one game. I was watching a game back on December 22 where the team I was rooting for couldn't buy a basket for almost the first three minutes and still only had 8 points past the 6 minute mark, but I don't remember really thinking that this UConn team is a bunch of practice lazy-butts with a coach who doesn't know how to make players learn how to guard a chair. Just knew things would snap into place.

A lot of teams get toasted by the UConn defense early on and in the first game if they're a conference mate, and maybe they'll shoot better the next game. The Bearcats did have a narrow loss to FSU and beat OSU, so they have potential. At some point, things will start snapping into place more often and maybe they'll look better against the top 25 teams.

 

[ThisJustIn]

"Best practices."I hate that phrase because it's used so often by people who miss the point -- you don't read or watch "best practices," you PRACTICE them. And then, when you do, you realize that, while a rising tide raises all boats, some boats will go higher because 1) they have better players and 2) their coach is just that good.

I think #2 will apply as long as Geno is UConn's head coach. He is just that good.

#1 came about because of his skills. Some of those skills are transferable, some are not.

So, what are the transferable skills, habits and practices that we would hope other coaches would transfer to their own practice? Here's a starter list:

Conditioning. It's often said that UConn is the best conditioned team around. What is the program/process? (Granted, you then have to get the players to buy in and push themselves.)

Precision. If basketball is a game of inches, Geno measures every quarter of an inch. Spacing, angles, screens, passing. Players are not allowed to be sloppy with their play because his standard (and eye) is so high.

Assistant Coaching. He understands who he needs to complement him. I'm betting that comes from accurate self-reflection on what his strengths and weaknesses (or tendencies?) are as a coach. If you were to create a rubric for coaching, I might start with these heading: Communication Skills, Game Prep, In Game Adjustments, Half Time Adjustments, End of Game Management, Post-Game Analysis, Staff Management, Practice Management, Professional Development... and so on. (It's REALLY hard to make a useful rubric, but it can be really....useful. Like a SWOT analysis.)

I'm not going to start on the off-court work - relationship with AD, University, Athletic Programs, Fans, High Schools, AAU programs, Community, Parents, Media....

 

[Striper69]

I watched the BYU-LMU game last night. I'm really impressed with them (BYU) and I think they'd match up pretty good with UCONN. Too bad we'll have to wait until the championship game to find out if at all.

 

[VAUConnFan]

In some years, a horse like Secretariat might not need a good jock to win the Triple Crown - but, not the year Secretariat won. People forget how good Sham was. Not only did Sham finish second in the Derby and Preakness, but it was a close second - in fact, it may still be true that the second-fastest time ever run in a Derby was Sham's 1:59 4/5, in losing to Secretariat by 2 lengths.

Folks remember Secretariat destroying the Belmont field by 31 lengths, and think that he was similarly dominant in the Derby and Preakness: he wasn't.

Secretariat was, in fact, similarly dominant in the Derby and Preakness in that he set records in all three triple crown races; Records that still stand 40 years later. Sham, with the great Laffit Pincay aboard, was as good as you say. But, when a horse runs three consecutive record shattering races at that level, it defines dominance.

 

[VAUConnFan]

So you're saying it doesn't make a difference.

It makes a difference, but there has been some success among inexperienced coaches. My feeling is and will pretty much always be that great players make great coaches.

 

[Icebear]

It makes a difference, but there has been some success among inexperienced coaches. My feeling is and will pretty much always be that great players make great coaches.

But weak coaches can always undermine great talent, too.

 

[pinotbear]

Secretariat was, in fact, similarly dominant in the Derby and Preakness in that he set records in all three triple crown races; Records that still stand 40 years later. Sham, with the great Laffit Pincay aboard, was as good as you say. But, when a horse runs three consecutive record shattering races at that level, it defines dominance.

Oh, absolutely - Secretariat was the epitome of dominance. But, my point was to address the notion that he was so dominant that the jock was somewhat irrelevant. Despite the tremendous times in the Derby and Preaknesss, the margin of victory was just a couple of fifths of a second over Sham. In a race that close, I just figure that the jockey has to matter - and, as you imply, Pincay may have made a greater difference for Sham than Turcotte made for Big Red. Regardless, what horses! What rides!

 

[David 76]

Three things
1 All the poor woman said, other than a lot of generalities, was that ESPN probably should not carry UCONN-Cinci in addition to a lot of other UCONN games. Chill fans!
2 It is the expectation that a game will be good that gets people to watch. No one knows if it will be a close game when they begin to watch. (Ironically, Dunn et al lower those expectations)
3 The problem is not that no one can compete with us. (This year may look that way but last year Baylor was favored to win, ND was kicking our butt). We won 8 Championships in 19 years so we were beaten 11 years. The problem is that there are never more than six teams that can get to the final four. So many times you , on day 1 of the season, could have penciled in Tenn. UCONN, Stanford into the final four.

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