Did you people watch Calhoun UConn teams?

[Tenspro2002]

I also don't get the narrative that our success has been entirely from a lunch-pail, blue-collar, ugly style of basketball. We weren't Pitt.

What made JC's teams great was that he got that buy-in, attitude, and toughness from players who were recruited and coached to put the ball in the basket. It wasn't an either/or thing where we had to have ugly offense in order to have toughness on both ends. We used to routinely score in the 80's or even 90's. Now we're lucky to break 60.

 

[superjohn]

I also don't get the narrative that our success has been entirely from a lunch-pail, blue-collar, ugly style of basketball. We weren't Pitt.

What made JC's teams great was that he got that buy-in, attitude, and toughness from players who were recruited and coached to put the ball in the basket. It wasn't an either/or thing where we had to have ugly offense in order to have toughness on both ends. We used to routinely score in the 80's or even 90's. Now we're lucky to break 60.

Calhoun won all sorts of different ways with all different styles of play.

 

[Athlete94]

I seriously doubt any of you did.

Either that or you have severe selective memory.

In no way is what I write a ringing endorsement of Kevin Ollie. He owns most of this mess. For many reasons I'll get into. But it isn't for on the floor style of play or "ugly offense" that I see written here ad nauseam .

If I see one more post about " lack of offensive sets" or how " teams run so much more prettier offenses than UConn " I want to puke.

Because that was Calhouns case too. We never ran pretty offense. Ever. Never.

How did Calhoun become the greatest coach of all time with such a predictable offense?

He had the uncanny knack of making his teams tougher than everyone else. Our good teams were always tougher. When our offense wasn't pretty we had horses crashing glass and cleaning up messes. You saw witchita do that yesterday in 2nd half. Cleaning glass off misses erases a lot of bad looking offense.

On defense we were brutal to teams. alternately having teams that could really get into you on the perimeter or having devastating rim protectors where no team would ever get anything easy . How many times over the years would you see teams actually get near the rim realize there was an oak , thabeet, even Brimah and not even take a shot and bring the ball back out because of fear?

We made games ugly. They were rockfights . There was never anything easy.
Through defensive will, keying offense off of defense, some offensive rebounding toughness and players who consistently improved it was a formula for great success. Unparalleled.

But does anyone ever wonder why the one thing lacking on JCs awesome coaching resume is a consistent string of NCAA tourney appearances? There were quite a few years JC teams stayed home while teams at our elite level would go every year.

Because JC's coaching style demanded all in defensive buy in plus a dynamic player or two who found consistency. When we weren't the mentally and physically toughest teams in the country we suffered even on very talented teams ( see 2012, 2010, 2007, 2001, 1997, 1993)
It is much harder to build a team with a collective constant will to win. Playing in such a demanding system. JC couldn't always do it, but when he did we were very hard to beat.

What I'm getting at is that KO is a Calhoun disciple . He is trying to keep JC's style of UConn basketball.

I see it.

Isn't it funny that in the closer losses against teams way more talented than us this year ( mich state, zona, WSU) that I see people on here saying "oh we suck, those teams were just having " off nights" . No it wasn't off nights. It's not coincidence . We made the games ugly. We competed hard and paid attention to detail on the defensive end in ways that we don't against lesser teams.
It looked like traditional UConn winning basketball for big stretches of all those games. The problems were we couldn't sustain it. We don't have enough horses. It takes great effort to sustain that style of play and notice that under 10 minutes left in each of those games we are simply gassed. KO has had to take timeouts under 10 to just rest players.

Now problem number 1 with that, that I will hang on KO (but not entirely) is why can the players only get up and play with the effort required to make our system successful against top 10 teams? I mean I get that is human nature to get juiced for the big moments. But for the system to work we have to buy in as a team culture every minute of every game . We don't.

Also, and the buck stops with KO as head coach, but again not entirely:
We are stupid. I mean this is a situationally unaware just mind boggling stupid collection of players as far as making unforced mistakes . Whether it is Vital chucking ridiculous threes , multiple players travelling, and larrier and Adams being so loose with the ball, we don't ever go more than 2 consecutive trips without absolutely shooting ourselves in the foot. KO can't be on the floor. And it's not like he can bench guys for stupid, because on the bench he has people who just ratchet up the stupid if out on the floor.

And then here is where it gets so fun.
If we manage to avoid stupid on the offensive end and get a good shot, we can't hit it. The shooting is just abysmal. We were never going to be that great a shooting team, but we shouldn't be this bad.

I think people think our low assist numbers are due to poor offense. Not really we have never run a high assist number type of offense. Our assists numbers are so terrible because we can't make a frickin shot. Please someone tell me, who do you want Jalen or Terry throwing the ball to for a score?
Polley?
Carlton?
DO?
ANDERSON?
Cobb?
Whaley?
Vital who is a black hole inconsistent 3 chucker?

None of them have any offensive game. I don't care if you bring in Pete Carril to run the Princeton offense none of those guys at this point have any inkling on how to play within themselves and put a ball in the hoop.

It's the Jalen and Terry show sink or swim. Unfortunately Jalen hasn't taken the next step that he should've for a kid with his tools junior year. He desperately needs to start draining that elbow jumper he can get any time he wants. It would open up the lane for drives, and dishing. And Terry looks like he's getting it and can be unstoppable except for the fact that he can't seem to ever get going in 1st half, and he has bad judgement putting the ball on the floor.

But to me bad offense is anyone but those 2 guys taking shots. Even with their flaws, and their flaws are hurting us right now.

We just don't have answers, our margin of error is so thin. We get something offensively we miss a shot. Good teams like the 3 I mentioned above if we have a single defensive breakdown after 5 excellent defensive trips by us , sink a three. Or get a board.

Now if you want to blame Ollie for having the players he has or players not getting better, or mind scratching lineups and substitution patterns, I get all that and fully agree.

But I don't blame him for trying to continue Jim Calhouns legacy and style and brand of UConn basketball. It brought us four titles.
And for good stretches against the best 3 teams we played this year, it proves to me that it can still work. We just don't have enough to make it work for 40 minutes. And we don't have the buy in to play that way consistently it is such a mentally fragile team.

Now that can entirely be KOs fault for not keeping his players engaged day in and day out, or some can hang on some players too. Don't care doesn't matter , end result the same and buck stops with coach.

But remember one thing. UConn basketball "style" as a brand is gone forever if KO can't find a way to make it work and we need to replace him.

And that makes me sad.

I don't know if he can do it or not off the floor. Because that's where our problems lie.

Man, I stopped reading after line 2.. you have way too much time to write a novel like that. Oh and yes, please stop with the Ollie to jc comparison.

 

[Athlete94]

I'm not comparing them. I'm saying Kevin Ollie is using Calhous system .

Ollie is using his own system, hence the 3 to 4 guard. Sets. Calhoun used his wings and bigs way more.. this is not Calhoun’s mess or system

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Go watch the Miss St sweet 16 game and tell me how pretty we looked.

A very ugly game, but Ricky was injured.

Your post, in the main, was good enough to gain some agreement, some disagreement, and a good number of thoughtful & intelligent posts from people I ignore. All of that is a good thing.

That said, in the latter JC years, I would often txt, "First team to [XX] wins." There were many games won by simply shutting down the other team at the end - not so much outscoring the other team as making certain they scored fewer points. Best example is probably Duke in the 2004 semi-final.

Yesterday, at 58-55, I said, "First team to 60 wins," basically thinking that the only path to a victory would finish up at, say, 64-61, with no missed free throws. Pure nostalgic fantasy. Wichita immediately hit a basket, sealing their vicyory, and then they went on forb 12 more points, pretty much like Arizona closed out. Too few horses.

 

[UCweCONN]

A very ugly game, but Ricky was injured.

Your post, in the main, was good enough to gain some agreement, some disagreement, and a good number of thoughtful & intelligent posts from people I ignore. All of that is a good thing.

That said, in the latter JC years, I would often txt, "First team to [XX] wins." There were many games won by simply shutting down the other team at the end - not so much outscoring the other team as making certain they scored fewer points. Best example is probably Duke in the 2004 semi-final.

Yesterday, at 58-55, I said, "First team to 60 wins," basically thinking that the only path to a victory would finish up at, say, 64-61, with no missed free throws. Pure nostalgic fantasy. Wichita immediately hit a basket, sealing their vicyory, and then they went on forb 12 more points, pretty much like Arizona closed out. Too few horses.

They have horses, we have giraffes

 

[August_West]

Calhoun won all sorts of different ways with all different styles of play.

Yup he did. But if you ever think that he had a book of offensive sets that KO doesn't have you don't know basketball past playing horse on a playground. Calhoun ran what worked for the roster. Agreed.
So does ko.

Remember how people in this thread are talking about how ko offense looks simple compared to complicated sets Calhoun ran for Ray or rip? Well KO doesn't have Ray or rip not does he have the players who could run those sets and get the guys the ball.
Guess who a month ago recommended sets be simplified for this team?

D'Oh? Jim Calhoun? Color me shocked .

 

[fgbrault]

A difference I see is Calhoun's willingness to yank a player when he did something really stupid and it seems to me Ollie waits far too long to call a time-out when things are going bad.

There simply was more discipline under Calhoun.

 

[uconNYC]

Analyze all you want. snow aint working with KO.

 

[WhiteDressWes]

August, while I agree JC's offenses weren't always pretty, I disagree that they were as rudimentary as what KO runs. JC was a master at finding something to exploit and making the other team bleed once he found it. I remember him finding a great mismatch with Lamb in the 2011 Kentucky game and getting a few huge baskets from it. He also called great plays out of timeouts.

What stands out more though was how beautifully we ran the fast break, especially during the 90s. With Sheffer, Ricky, Donyell, Donny, Rip etc it was a work of art how well we rebounded, threw great outlet passes, spaced the floor and ran teams into the ground the last 10 minutes of the game.

JC teams didn't always need to run a great half court offense because we routinely had a big advantage in free throw attempts, something we now are typically at a big disadvantage from. We run a very poor fast break these days, don't get to the line much, turn the ball over too much, which makes the poor half court planning and execution really stand out.

With Ricky's injury and Doron's groin pull, we got really slow and lost to an inferior Mississippi State. a hobbling Doron is more point guards than we have now. That JC team performed about like KO's now.

If KO has point guards and is still losing, then he needs to go. Comparing a JC team with them to a KO team without them is insulting to this former, popular point guard.

 

[Matrim55]

With Ricky's injury and Doron's groin pull, we got really slow and lost to an inferior Mississippi State.

That Mississippi State team was legit, though – one of only two teams to beat UK that year (Camby's UMass was the other).

 

[Fishy]

I seriously doubt any of you did.

The problem with your asking the question is that you then spend about a thousand words demonstrating that you are completely unfit to ask it.

Calhoun had some terrific offensive teams. He also had some terrific defensive teams.

There is no correlation or lessons to be learned about this debacle by looking back at Calhoun’s career.

You get a complete fail here.

 

[8893]

The problem with your asking the question is that you then spend about a thousand words demonstrating that you are completely unfit to ask it.

Calhoun had some terrific offensive teams. He also had some terrific defensive teams.

There is no correlation or lessons to be learned about this debacle by looking back at Calhoun’s career.

You get a complete fail here.

There is at least one lesson: when all else fails play tough defense.

 

[8893]

Calhoun was an alchemist on offense, using what he had. It wasn’t always pretty and it usually involved exploiting mismatches wherever he could find them. He generally had better ingredients but he was also better at using them.

But again, when all else failed, he made his teams play defense.

Ollie has not been able to make his teams commit to 40 minutes of defense, and his two best offensive players on this team are his two laziest defenders.

 

[superjohn]

The problem with your asking the question is that you then spend about a thousand words demonstrating that you are completely unfit to ask it.

Calhoun had some terrific offensive teams. He also had some terrific defensive teams.

There is no correlation or lessons to be learned about this debacle by looking back at Calhoun’s career.

You get a complete fail here.

Thanks for this. Happy New Year.

 

[Fishy]

Thanks for this. Happy New Year.

Sudafed, DayQuil and gin.

I’m seeing the world extra clear tonight and I couldn’t let that pile of tripe pass.

Happy New Year!

 

[8893]

Sudafed, DayQuil and gin.

I’m seeing the world extra clear tonight and I couldn’t let that pile of tripe pass.

Happy New Year!

Knock on wood, I don’t get sick much. When I do, I am still a sudafed and DayQuil devotee. Sudafed for at least 30 years and DayQuil for at least 20. I was stunned to learn that they are basically controlled substances now. Then again, I powered through a lot of seemingly miraculous situations with them, so maybe not so surprising after all.

 

[Fishy]

Knock on wood, I don’t get sick much. When I do, I am still a sudafed and DayQuil devotee. Sudafed for at least 30 years and DayQuil for at least 20. I was stunned to learn that they are basically controlled substances now. Then again, I powered through a lot of seemingly miraculous situations with them, so maybe not so surprising after all.

I try not to take anything, prescription or otherwise, if I can avoid it.

My theory is that if I don’t, when I really need it, the stuff will work like gangbusters.

That has proven true here - I feel like holy hell, but the Sudafed is making things bearable.

The jury is out on the DayQuil. I have no idea why something would taste that horrific and still be offered for public sale. I don’t care how bad I feel, I am not taking another drop of that stuff.

Shoutout to the genius who invented the Puffs Plus. They are so soft. The ones infused with Vicks are a gift from God.

 

[8893]

I try not to take anything, prescription or otherwise, if I can avoid it.

My theory is that if I don’t, when I really need it, the stuff will work like gangbusters.

That has proven true here - I feel like holy hell, but the Sudafed is making things bearable.

The jury is out on the DayQuil. I have no idea why something would taste that horrific and still be offered for public sale. I don’t care how bad I feel, I am not taking another drop of that stuff.

Shoutout to the genius who invented the Puffs Plus. They are so soft. The ones infused with Vicks are a gift from God.

Agree on all. Sudafed definitely more effective for me. My wife turned me on to DayQuil a few times when I needed to power through a few more symptoms but it was the gel caps so no taste issues. Sudafed is basically speed.

 

[Paesano]

I try not to take anything, prescription or otherwise, if I can avoid it.

My theory is that if I don’t, when I really need it, the stuff will work like gangbusters.

That has proven true here - I feel like holy hell, but the Sudafed is making things bearable.

The jury is out on the DayQuil. I have no idea why something would taste that horrific and still be offered for public sale. I don’t care how bad I feel, I am not taking another drop of that stuff.

Shoutout to the genius who invented the Puffs Plus. They are so soft. The ones infused with Vicks are a gift from God.

Before bed, take a dose of tylenol chased with a shot of black sambuca. Look for a brand called Opal Nera. It is legit with real elderberry.

 

[8893]

Before bed, take a dose of tylenol chased with a shot of black sambuca. Look for a brand called Opal Nera. It is legit with real elderberry.

Gran Marnier in a heated snifter is my magic elixir for a cold. Vitamin G. I have made many converts.

 

[Jaker]

Good gawd, lets keep living in the past. Calhoun has retired and is not comimg back people and he had his share of issues.

 

[Matrim55]

Before bed, take a dose of tylenol chased with a shot of black sambuca.

JFC no. You should never take Tylenol at all, but taking it in conjunction with alcohol is a recipe for liver damage.

Do not, EVER, mix alcohol with acetaminophen. Honestly if that stuff was discovered now it would never get past the FDA – it's poison.

Just take two alka seltzer before bedtime and you'll be fine.

 

[boog204]

I agree, JC's offense was rudimentary and actually held us back when we were more finesse in the 90s. The m.o. was make us play half court and beat up the star and you will beat us. You saw this come to fruition with Donyell vs. Florida and especially with Ray vs. Boubacar Aw and then later vs. Miss St. The difference was that JC got his guys to play hard and to run through walls. KO has not been able to do that. So it magnifies the x and o issues all the more. While I agree with your basic premise that KO is just doing what he learned; it's not working. KO does not have the ability (it seems) to make guys plays 120% or with the fear of the hook to execute appropriately. So as a result you see the same craptastic offense but guys going through it at 75%. The awful/predictable baseline or pin down screens are done with such nonchalance that they just serve to clog up spacing. JC, even in his down years, would ensure that that big was getting a body on someone. The last 3 years have illustrated that this style does not work but there is nothing being done to change anything. So not only are we not seeing results, but we are also losing the fan base, the recruits, and the roster is going through rapid turnover. I can't just sit back and say, "well KO is just doing what has worked in the past." Because it is not working at all right now. This isn't a one year abberation when JC was building the team up (or tearing down as in 2010). This is 3 of 4 years where we are mediocre and in the other year we badly under-performed.

To build on the bad offense idea, even with JCs struggles in the half court (especially early) we were still able to get some good shots. There was still some ball movement/player movement. The plan wasn't for Ray to get the ball and everyone get out of the way. Ray seemed to always get great looks. I feel like we get a few open looks every game and everything else is off the dribble or guys just going one-on-one. That's a huge issue.

 

[Kenny11]

I agree. Calhoun teams never ran great flowing offensive sets.

But the game has changed so much even just in the last 5 Years. Unless you have elite 5 star level talent (which we don’t) you better be able to have multiple guys that can spread the floor and make 3s. Toughness alone isn’t getting it done anymore in modern basketball.