Did you people watch Calhoun UConn teams?

[HuskyHawk]

You're not wrong, but looking at the NBA vs college doesn't always make sense imo. I do think there is a little bit of apples and oranges going on there. The NBA is LOADED with highly skilled BBall players, most of whom which can shoot very well. This includes big men who can do the same, and the offenses are designed to accommodate these things.

College is not filled with highly skilled players, nor great shooters at all positions. There are some, to be sure, but the mix of guys is much, much broader. For this reason, the best asset, the most important asset, in college is defense. It doesn't require great skill, and yet can significantly hinder good college offenses, as the players aren't as skilled up and down the roster. So focus on that (and those players) first and foremost, and design your offense accordingly.

That said, no team can survive with zero shooters.

The shift in the NBA followed the end of the illegal defense penalty, effectively allowing zone defense concepts. The ISO offense is even less effective in college where zone is much more common, and most players can’t beat multiple defenders.

I agree with your comments on defense. But this offense is a disaster and needs to be scrapped. A motion offense and a bunch of athletically mediocre players who can shoot threes, can bury many teams.

 

[mauconnfan]

You're right. Perno's teams played harder.

That’s fair

 

[intlzncster]

I agree with your comments on defense. But this offense is a disaster and needs to be scrapped. A motion offense and a bunch of athletically mediocre players who can shoot threes, can bury many teams.

They can definitely win games, but how many of that type of team wins Championships? I mean it happens, but those aren't generally the teams standing on the podiums.

I never said we should keep the offense we have mind you.

 

[August_West]

This is the dumbest post in the history of this board. Unbelievable that a Uconn fan would post this garbage.

Lol look who's talking. why don't you insinuate more head coach sex scandal talk. That makes you such a great fan.

 

[nychuskyfan]

He recruited the 10th best recruiting class in the nation last year. Conference is not the problem. The coach is the problem.

You see, he knows how to take the recruiting commitment, he just doesn't know how to hold the commitment. And that's really the most important part of the commitment: the holding. Anybody can just take them.

 

[superjohn]

Lol look who's talking. why don't you insinuate more head coach sex scandal talk. That makes you such a great fan.

Keep jocking my nuts. I never once mentioned any Ollie personal stuff on this board so you can stop lying.

Not at all surprised you would have no problem with a guy trashing Calhoun and all our former players considering you just started watching Uconn basketball around 2004. Funny how you get on me for saying the guy who gets paid over 3 million per year is in way over his head and needs to go but you could care less about a guy like Mau who trashes a bunch of 19 year olds.

As for you and TopDog you two dips__ts can continue thinking the APR is a good judge of academic achievement and the NCAA punishment they meted out to UConn was just, it really makes you guys look knowledgeable.

 

[HuskyHawk]

They can definitely win games, but how many of that type of team wins Championships? I mean it happens, but those aren't generally the teams standing on the podiums.

I never said we should keep the offense we have mind you.

Oh hell no. You need athletes to win titles, in large part because it can provide such an edge on defense. My point is...look at the upsets across the board, look how lesser teams took us to OT by moving the ball for open 3s. That offense is only more effective with better athletes.

We are still UConn. I think that if we were playing the style kids want to play, and winning more games, recruiting would come back. If you are a HS kid now though, why go to UConn and learn an obsolete offense not being used in the NBA? Ollie’s offense is about as appealing as Diaco’s was.

 

[champs99and04]

Calhoun had sets, not a lot of them but he did have them. In the NC against Butler he took his high ball screen set and ran it from the sideline when it became clear that it wasn't working from the top of the key.

He ran the high post and low block triangle until Boeheim cried uncle even Josh Boone could run it.

Forget the pick and roll, pick and pop, the double screen and circle sets that beat Duke in 99 and everyone in the Big East from 1990 until 2009.

Not to mention the list of inbound plays and defensive sets.

KO runs straight pick and roll, NBA isolation without the talent to make it work. On D, he can't get his guys to play either man or zone consistently.

You can run a ball screen from the moon if you want, it doesn't matter when your players can't score. The action Calhoun ran for Kemba and Lamb in the 2011 tournament is exactly the same thing Ollie is trying to incorporate now.

Just go back and watch the tape. There are plenty of double screens and circle sets in KO's offense. Every time I click on one of tcf's uploads I am surprised by how much is going on offensively because it does seem like, while watching it live, that nothing is happening.

You can criticize literally every other aspect of KO's coaching before you get to the validity of the actual sets he's running. Nobody becomes a division one coach without having some handle on basketball philosophy. If you want to say it doesn't work, fine, if you want to say it's never worked or that it doesn't incorporate the same fundamental reads that every other offense does, I don't know what to tell you. The idea that Ollie is actively teaching his players to avoid ball movement, cutting, and screening just doesn't add up.

 

[CL82]

Rip would be nothing better than a TL imitation on this years team. That's how KO would coach him up, and that's how he'd play.

 

[husky8273]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Truly none. At least form your theory into a question to see if anyone might have an answer. Stating the above as fact is next-level ignorant.

What do you believe led to our APR problems and why weren't they remedied?

 

[CL82]

In addition to the above think of this...

With the exception of Emeka Okafor and maybe a few other players mostly from the 90s, most of the players he recuited that resulted in 3 national championships were not very good academically, which ultimately leaded to our low APR scores

Not so much. What led to the ban was a retroactive change of rules in a year we were vulnerable due to transfers.

 

[Sonova]

What do you believe led to our APR problems and why weren't they remedied?

See CL82’s “answer” above. Our vulnerability was driven by a few factors: transfers, players leaving early for the draft and most importantly, the University not understanding how to effectively manage the APR (see UK as the poster child for this). This occurred in large part because it’s a BS measure of actual academic progress and thus, needed special attention to ensure that departing underclassmen left in “good standing.” The NCAA changed the rules retroactively in order to make an example of a major program (to show how much Mark Emmett “cares”) and that’s it in a nutshell. After that, EVERYONE realized that managing the APR was a requirement and it’s why it hasn’t happened again to any major school. It’s not that suddenly every student or program became more academically focused. And it’s certainly not that we recruit Ivy League caliber students.

 

[The Funster]

In regards to the OP:

Calhoun did not run a complicated offense. Ever. What he did do is tailor the offense to the talent that he had. Pressing/fast breaking. Wing oriented offense with low screens to free up perimeter jumpers. Big oriented offense where we made more free throws than our opponents typically attempted. Yes, there were periods throughout the years where the team was guilty of standing around and watching the man do the scoring, Ray, Rip, etc. but Calhoun always ran designed plays to get everyone moving. Did Calhoun regress a little towards the end offensively? I believe he did but he still had a talented two man backcourt with coaches on the court Kemba, Boat and Bazz to pick up the slack.

1) KO fell down big time with his recruiting. If you want to play NBA iso and pick and roll you have to recruit the pieces to play it. He didn't.

2) Having failed at recruiting he has been unable to implement any kind of offensive philosphy for his team. You can't play hero ball without heroes.

3) The most damning point about KO is plays coming out of timeouts or breaks. He doesn't have any.

Jim Calhoun always had effective set plays and his teams always executed them. Jim Calhoun's teams always had a philosophy that they operated under and executed the philosophy. Go back to 99 when Rip the jump shooter became Rip the driver. JC drilled his team to help free Rip to the rim at the most crucial part of the season and it worked.

You can't compare KO to JC. It really is like checkers to chess. KO sends his team out with n framework, no matter how loose, to operate under. There is no accountability because no one really knows what they are supposed to do other than try to score.

 

[HuskyHawk]

What do you believe led to our APR problems and why weren't they remedied?

Pretty simple. It's a moronic statistic that measures absolutely nothing of value. So every team ignored it. Transfers and early exit players who did not graduate would hurt your APR. We had several of those, the NCAA applied the rule retroactively at precisely the moment that our APR was unusually low. It has nothing to do with who we are recruiting.

 

[Cheddie]

I try not to take anything, prescription or otherwise, if I can avoid it.

My theory is that if I don’t, when I really need it, the stuff will work like gangbusters.

That has proven true here - I feel like holy hell, but the Sudafed is making things bearable.

The jury is out on the DayQuil. I have no idea why something would taste that horrific and still be offered for public sale. I don’t care how bad I feel, I am not taking another drop of that stuff.

Shoutout to the genius who invented the Puffs Plus. They are so soft. The ones infused with Vicks are a gift from God.

I think one of DayQuil's active ingredients is similar to ketamine -- awful taste limits abuse.

 

[Deadrody]

I seriously doubt any of you did.

Either that or you have severe selective memory.

In no way is what I write a ringing endorsement of Kevin Ollie. He owns most of this mess. For many reasons I'll get into. But it isn't for on the floor style of play or "ugly offense" that I see written here ad nauseam .

If I see one more post about " lack of offensive sets" or how " teams run so much more prettier offenses than UConn " I want to puke.

Because that was Calhouns case too. We never ran pretty offense. Ever. Never.

How did Calhoun become the greatest coach of all time with such a predictable offense?

He had the uncanny knack of making his teams tougher than everyone else. Our good teams were always tougher. When our offense wasn't pretty we had horses crashing glass and cleaning up messes. You saw witchita do that yesterday in 2nd half. Cleaning glass off misses erases a lot of bad looking offense.

On defense we were brutal to teams. alternately having teams that could really get into you on the perimeter or having devastating rim protectors where no team would ever get anything easy . How many times over the years would you see teams actually get near the rim realize there was an oak , thabeet, even Brimah and not even take a shot and bring the ball back out because of fear?

We made games ugly. They were rockfights . There was never anything easy.
Through defensive will, keying offense off of defense, some offensive rebounding toughness and players who consistently improved it was a formula for great success. Unparalleled.

But does anyone ever wonder why the one thing lacking on JCs awesome coaching resume is a consistent string of NCAA tourney appearances? There were quite a few years JC teams stayed home while teams at our elite level would go every year.

Because JC's coaching style demanded all in defensive buy in plus a dynamic player or two who found consistency. When we weren't the mentally and physically toughest teams in the country we suffered even on very talented teams ( see 2012, 2010, 2007, 2001, 1997, 1993)
It is much harder to build a team with a collective constant will to win. Playing in such a demanding system. JC couldn't always do it, but when he did we were very hard to beat.

What I'm getting at is that KO is a Calhoun disciple . He is trying to keep JC's style of UConn basketball.

I see it.

Isn't it funny that in the closer losses against teams way more talented than us this year ( mich state, zona, WSU) that I see people on here saying "oh we suck, those teams were just having " off nights" . No it wasn't off nights. It's not coincidence . We made the games ugly. We competed hard and paid attention to detail on the defensive end in ways that we don't against lesser teams.
It looked like traditional UConn winning basketball for big stretches of all those games. The problems were we couldn't sustain it. We don't have enough horses. It takes great effort to sustain that style of play and notice that under 10 minutes left in each of those games we are simply gassed. KO has had to take timeouts under 10 to just rest players.

Now problem number 1 with that, that I will hang on KO (but not entirely) is why can the players only get up and play with the effort required to make our system successful against top 10 teams? I mean I get that is human nature to get juiced for the big moments. But for the system to work we have to buy in as a team culture every minute of every game . We don't.

Also, and the buck stops with KO as head coach, but again not entirely:
We are stupid. I mean this is a situationally unaware just mind boggling stupid collection of players as far as making unforced mistakes . Whether it is Vital chucking ridiculous threes , multiple players travelling, and larrier and Adams being so loose with the ball, we don't ever go more than 2 consecutive trips without absolutely shooting ourselves in the foot. KO can't be on the floor. And it's not like he can bench guys for stupid, because on the bench he has people who just ratchet up the stupid if out on the floor.

And then here is where it gets so fun.
If we manage to avoid stupid on the offensive end and get a good shot, we can't hit it. The shooting is just abysmal. We were never going to be that great a shooting team, but we shouldn't be this bad.

I think people think our low assist numbers are due to poor offense. Not really we have never run a high assist number type of offense. Our assists numbers are so terrible because we can't make a frickin shot. Please someone tell me, who do you want Jalen or Terry throwing the ball to for a score?
Polley?
Carlton?
DO?
ANDERSON?
Cobb?
Whaley?
Vital who is a black hole inconsistent 3 chucker?

None of them have any offensive game. I don't care if you bring in Pete Carril to run the Princeton offense none of those guys at this point have any inkling on how to play within themselves and put a ball in the hoop.

It's the Jalen and Terry show sink or swim. Unfortunately Jalen hasn't taken the next step that he should've for a kid with his tools junior year. He desperately needs to start draining that elbow jumper he can get any time he wants. It would open up the lane for drives, and dishing. And Terry looks like he's getting it and can be unstoppable except for the fact that he can't seem to ever get going in 1st half, and he has bad judgement putting the ball on the floor.

But to me bad offense is anyone but those 2 guys taking shots. Even with their flaws, and their flaws are hurting us right now.

We just don't have answers, our margin of error is so thin. We get something offensively we miss a shot. Good teams like the 3 I mentioned above if we have a single defensive breakdown after 5 excellent defensive trips by us , sink a three. Or get a board.

Now if you want to blame Ollie for having the players he has or players not getting better, or mind scratching lineups and substitution patterns, I get all that and fully agree.

But I don't blame him for trying to continue Jim Calhouns legacy and style and brand of UConn basketball. It brought us four titles.
And for good stretches against the best 3 teams we played this year, it proves to me that it can still work. We just don't have enough to make it work for 40 minutes. And we don't have the buy in to play that way consistently it is such a mentally fragile team.

Now that can entirely be KOs fault for not keeping his players engaged day in and day out, or some can hang on some players too. Don't care doesn't matter , end result the same and buck stops with coach.

But remember one thing. UConn basketball "style" as a brand is gone forever if KO can't find a way to make it work and we need to replace him.

And that makes me sad.

I don't know if he can do it or not off the floor. Because that's where our problems lie.

This is just plain silly. I'm not even going to read this run on mess because, yeah, I watched ALL those teams. I watched them lose to Jackson State in the NIT in 1993. I was in Gampel when they blew the roof off the place beating Nebraska in the NIT in 1997. I stood in a bar in Oswego NY watching them lose to Miss State in 1996. I participated in many game threads while people complained that Ricky Moore or Taliek Brown just kept pounding the ball into the floor while the shot clock ran down.

First of all, the key to any offense is guys that can make shots. Period. Remember when I posted the link to video of the blowout of #12 UVA in 1993 ? Yeah, any time the offense had to run a set in the half court, it was ugly. Except when a freshman, Ray Allen, made shot after shot. Guess what happened in 1996 ? The greatest three point shooter in the history of the NBA had a really bad day.

And guess what else ? Despite the occasional half court offensive struggles, Calhoun's teams made up for that with effort, with defense, and by running the floor. And sometimes, the HOF coach adjusted. See, also, Rash Jones at power forward against the SU zone in the Big East tournament in 1998.

You're just making a classic strawman argument. Not one person on earth is arguing that because Calhoun's half court offense was so good, why can't Ollie run any offense ? He must stink. But you go right ahead and bash that argument that nobody is making.

 

[Deadrody]

What do you believe led to our APR problems and why weren't they remedied?

You're kidding, right ? This issue was dissected and understood YEARS ago. Maybe you recall which members of the basketball / athletic departments were replaced first, AD or head coach ?

I don't know why Hathaway failed to prioritize academic performance, especially the manufactured foolishness of the APR, but he didn't.

Seriously, what possible point are you trying to make here ? That the APR was somehow the Hall of Fame head coach's responsibility and not the athletic department ? Or that in anything other than meaningless noise, the APR problems are some kind of failing on Calhoun's part, on par with the struggles Ollie is going through, ergo, we should give Ollie a pass or something ?

Whatever. I personally believe that the NCAA focus on penalizing academic non-performance, beyond setting an eligibility criteria is idiotic. These kids are getting a free education in exchange for playing a kid's game. If they want to squander than opportunity, that's their decision. I wonder what effect John Stark's four year / four school college career would have had on those teams APR if it had existed at the time. Doesn't matter, because John Starks didn't give 2 craps about getting a college education. He took advantage of those schools no less than they took advantage of him, so that he could get where he wanted - the NBA.

So, no, I don't give a crap about the APR, I don't fault Jim Calhoun for not personally preventing the APR from impacting his program, and I think the entire notion of "academic progress" is a bunch of nonsense for college athletes. Try again.

 

[Mokum]

I agree with most of what you say and mean in the OP but not with this kind of side point.

Jim Calhoun was not a point guard for 13 seasons and 11 teams in the NBA. I think we do and should expect a little more offensive proficiency from KO’s professional experience. The real issue is that this is his first head coaching job, at a top-flight program, and he is in over his head; there is no debating he is. He may be better fit at a program with more average expectations right now.

I agree. He was and is not ready for this job. Taking over a major program with his coaching resume was a stupid idea. His playing ability has nothing to do with coaching. Many of the best coaches were bench warmers in college. Calhoun himself was no big star player with an NBA career.

 

[Mokum]

I seriously doubt any of you did.

Either that or you have severe selective memory.

In no way is what I write a ringing endorsement of Kevin Ollie. He owns most of this mess. For many reasons I'll get into. But it isn't for on the floor style of play or "ugly offense" that I see written here ad nauseam .

If I see one more post about " lack of offensive sets" or how " teams run so much more prettier offenses than UConn " I want to puke.

Because that was Calhouns case too. We never ran pretty offense. Ever. Never.

How did Calhoun become the greatest coach of all time with such a predictable offense?

He had the uncanny knack of making his teams tougher than everyone else. Our good teams were always tougher. When our offense wasn't pretty we had horses crashing glass and cleaning up messes. You saw witchita do that yesterday in 2nd half. Cleaning glass off misses erases a lot of bad looking offense.

On defense we were brutal to teams. alternately having teams that could really get into you on the perimeter or having devastating rim protectors where no team would ever get anything easy . How many times over the years would you see teams actually get near the rim realize there was an oak , thabeet, even Brimah and not even take a shot and bring the ball back out because of fear?

We made games ugly. They were rockfights . There was never anything easy.
Through defensive will, keying offense off of defense, some offensive rebounding toughness and players who consistently improved it was a formula for great success. Unparalleled.

But does anyone ever wonder why the one thing lacking on JCs awesome coaching resume is a consistent string of NCAA tourney appearances? There were quite a few years JC teams stayed home while teams at our elite level would go every year.

Because JC's coaching style demanded all in defensive buy in plus a dynamic player or two who found consistency. When we weren't the mentally and physically toughest teams in the country we suffered even on very talented teams ( see 2012, 2010, 2007, 2001, 1997, 1993)
It is much harder to build a team with a collective constant will to win. Playing in such a demanding system. JC couldn't always do it, but when he did we were very hard to beat.

What I'm getting at is that KO is a Calhoun disciple . He is trying to keep JC's style of UConn basketball.

I see it.

Isn't it funny that in the closer losses against teams way more talented than us this year ( mich state, zona, WSU) that I see people on here saying "oh we suck, those teams were just having " off nights" . No it wasn't off nights. It's not coincidence . We made the games ugly. We competed hard and paid attention to detail on the defensive end in ways that we don't against lesser teams.
It looked like traditional UConn winning basketball for big stretches of all those games. The problems were we couldn't sustain it. We don't have enough horses. It takes great effort to sustain that style of play and notice that under 10 minutes left in each of those games we are simply gassed. KO has had to take timeouts under 10 to just rest players.

Now problem number 1 with that, that I will hang on KO (but not entirely) is why can the players only get up and play with the effort required to make our system successful against top 10 teams? I mean I get that is human nature to get juiced for the big moments. But for the system to work we have to buy in as a team culture every minute of every game . We don't.

Also, and the buck stops with KO as head coach, but again not entirely:
We are stupid. I mean this is a situationally unaware just mind boggling stupid collection of players as far as making unforced mistakes . Whether it is Vital chucking ridiculous threes , multiple players travelling, and larrier and Adams being so loose with the ball, we don't ever go more than 2 consecutive trips without absolutely shooting ourselves in the foot. KO can't be on the floor. And it's not like he can bench guys for stupid, because on the bench he has people who just ratchet up the stupid if out on the floor.

And then here is where it gets so fun.
If we manage to avoid stupid on the offensive end and get a good shot, we can't hit it. The shooting is just abysmal. We were never going to be that great a shooting team, but we shouldn't be this bad.

I think people think our low assist numbers are due to poor offense. Not really we have never run a high assist number type of offense. Our assists numbers are so terrible because we can't make a frickin shot. Please someone tell me, who do you want Jalen or Terry throwing the ball to for a score?
Polley?
Carlton?
DO?
ANDERSON?
Cobb?
Whaley?
Vital who is a black hole inconsistent 3 chucker?

None of them have any offensive game. I don't care if you bring in Pete Carril to run the Princeton offense none of those guys at this point have any inkling on how to play within themselves and put a ball in the hoop.

It's the Jalen and Terry show sink or swim. Unfortunately Jalen hasn't taken the next step that he should've for a kid with his tools junior year. He desperately needs to start draining that elbow jumper he can get any time he wants. It would open up the lane for drives, and dishing. And Terry looks like he's getting it and can be unstoppable except for the fact that he can't seem to ever get going in 1st half, and he has bad judgement putting the ball on the floor.

But to me bad offense is anyone but those 2 guys taking shots. Even with their flaws, and their flaws are hurting us right now.

We just don't have answers, our margin of error is so thin. We get something offensively we miss a shot. Good teams like the 3 I mentioned above if we have a single defensive breakdown after 5 excellent defensive trips by us , sink a three. Or get a board.

Now if you want to blame Ollie for having the players he has or players not getting better, or mind scratching lineups and substitution patterns, I get all that and fully agree.

But I don't blame him for trying to continue Jim Calhouns legacy and style and brand of UConn basketball. It brought us four titles.
And for good stretches against the best 3 teams we played this year, it proves to me that it can still work. We just don't have enough to make it work for 40 minutes. And we don't have the buy in to play that way consistently it is such a mentally fragile team.

Now that can entirely be KOs fault for not keeping his players engaged day in and day out, or some can hang on some players too. Don't care doesn't matter , end result the same and buck stops with coach.

But remember one thing. UConn basketball "style" as a brand is gone forever if KO can't find a way to make it work and we need to replace him.

And that makes me sad.

I don't know if he can do it or not off the floor. Because that's where our problems lie.

I watched Hugh Greers teams. They were always over achievers and a dominant program at their level in those days.