OT: College in the COVID era

[HuskyHawk]

Sometimes you just have to look at the news. I'm in Fairfield County and worked in NYC for a couple of decades. There were no alarming reports coming out of Fordham, no rapes, muggings or other criminal activities. And I still see no bad reports out of Fordham.

My daughter goes to grad school at night at Northeastern and like Fordham no alarming news happening to students. Keep in mind, if Fordham had crime problems attendance would certainly drop.

Funny how as parents we are now so scared (some call it protective) at the same situations that when we were their age meant nothing to us. My daughter survived Boston on her own in undergrad, and is thriving now. I believe you have prepared her for anything.

Anyway, you will certainly enjoy visiting her on weekends even if you only can see her for a couple of hours. Just saying not a bad location to have to visit.

It's a fair point. The crime issue was derailing from what I really wanted to know about the area and school, it was meant as just a piece of the picture. @Hey Adrien! helped with that and Superjohn for Chicago. As for visits, Boston is certainly no big deal, as I already live in the metro area. NYC makes my skin crawl. Just the sight of it from a distance makes me want to turn around. Love Chicago though. Burlington would be my top visit location, grabbing beer at Foam makes for a nice day.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

@HuskyHawk, curious: did she apply to UMass-Amherst and if not, what was the reason? I don't know much about the school other than I went to a concert there as an undergrad and the few times I've been to Amherst it seems like a pretty fun town for all ages, especially college aged.

If we end up having kids, we'd highly encourage the in-state school route, but mostly because I don't foresee us being able to help much financially and myself and my wife already have that personal bias as in-state public school grads (UConn and UM-Missoula).

Thanks, I just find this stuff fascinating. The guy I share a classroom with had his kid start at UVM this fall and it was really interesting seeing his search process through covid. Good luck with it.

 

[HuskyHawk]

@HuskyHawk, curious: did she apply to UMass-Amherst and if not, what was the reason? I don't know much about the school other than I went to a concert there as an undergrad and the few times I've been to Amherst it seems like a pretty fun town for all ages, especially college aged.

If we end up having kids, we'd highly encourage the in-state school route, but mostly because I don't foresee us being able to help much financially and myself and my wife already have that personal bias as in-state public school grads (UConn and UM-Missoula).

Thanks, I just find this stuff fascinating. The guy I share a classroom with had his kid start at UVM this fall and it was really interesting seeing his search process through covid. Good luck with it.

No to UMass Amherst. It would certainly have been the cheapest route, although not cheap. She didn't really want that big university situation. We visited UConn and she hated that it was in the boonies and thought the campus was too big and sprawling. Felt the same about Kansas, although she would absolutely have loved Lawrence.

Every kid will be different. Mine went to Catholic school from kindergarten. So was always driven to school. This year she could actually have some freedom and drive herself...then Covid. To visit school friends she had to drive but once she got her license last spring Covid was here. She's been stuck in this neighborhood for 17 years. So I understand why she doesn't want to rely on just the campus to provide her social life (as is the case in Storrs and Amherst). It was very different for me as a kid.

People talk about rankings and programs and all of that. If the kid is laser focused on something, that will drive your search. Mine isn't, so the environment is in many ways more important, although we will consider the other stuff too. People can succeed going to college anywhere.

 

[SubbaBub]

Sorry to bump this. Since many of you live or work in metro NYC, what are your thoughts on Fordham? As someone who dislikes NYC immensely and who has never stepped foot in the Bronx, I have misgivings. But my daughter had it high on her list and got in. So it’s a real possibility. We haven’t visited campus yet. Curious about how it is perceived, the location, safety etc.

For anybody curious how this process has played out since we discussed it here. She applied to 12 schools. Has heard from 6, 5 acceptances and one acceptance to a specific program (NUin at Northeastern, where you start abroad for a semester). I think these schools are concerned about declining enrollment. At this point I regret not pushing her to apply to Georgetown, although my wallet may be glad.

NYU>Ne>Fordham.

Going to school in NYC is it's own thing. Less like campus college and more like moving to LA to get into the movies.

The question you are asking yourself is can your daughter handle herself on her own or will be able to learn how.

FWIW, your first impression will likely be the worst. I did my undergrad is a real s hole though not the Bronx. Took a good measure of the fencing and gates on my campus visit.

Ended up moving off campus rather quickly once enrolled. While I was never physically assaulted, I knew several that were. My apt was robbed twice as were those of a couple other friends.

My conclusion is that kids will adapt to their surroundings and isn't that the point of education? There will be some level of safety risk and crime at any campus. UConn has had some doozies, and it's in the middle of a cow pasture.

If you carefully consider the quality of education and the opportunities she might have academically and professionally, you should be able to have a discussion about personal safety regardless of location.

My only regret was I should have gone somewhere warmer.

 

[Tenspro2002]

GW was voted the worse value of American Colleges.

I agree with this take. My brother went to GW because he really wanted to be in DC.

Seems like a fine school academically, especially for political science and adjacent subjects, good access to internships and things, and it's in one of the better areas of DC, but the impression I get is there are a lot of rich/preppy kids who want a decent education but aren't looking to push themselves. Maybe even a bit of a party school.

And, yes, heinously expensive despite being merely a good-but-not-elite private university.

So, OP, I would say, consider GW if your daughter is particularly interested in DC and government/policy, but otherwise there are better choices.

 

[SubbaBub]

Sometimes you just have to look at the news. I'm in Fairfield County and worked in NYC for a couple of decades. There were no alarming reports coming out of Fordham, no rapes, muggings or other criminal activities. And I still see no bad reports out of Fordham.

My daughter goes to grad school at night at Northeastern and like Fordham no alarming news happening to students. Keep in mind, if Fordham had crime problems attendance would certainly drop.

Funny how as parents we are now so scared (some call it protective) at the same situations that when we were their age meant nothing to us. My daughter survived Boston on her own in undergrad, and is thriving now. I believe you have prepared her for anything.

Anyway, you will certainly enjoy visiting her on weekends even if you only can see her for a couple of hours. Just saying not a bad location to have to visit.

Comparatively speaking, we lived like animals in college. How we lived in that filth is beyond me. Kids get in big trouble for so much less. Underage drinking can now result in expulsion in some places.

It's all relative I supposed a decade before me, my building was a massive LSD lab. Our 100 keg parties seem mild by comparison.

 

[Guapo]

I agree with this take. My brother went to GW because he really wanted to be in DC.

Seems like a fine school academically, especially for political science and adjacent subjects, good access to internships and things, and it's in one of the better areas of DC, but the impression I get is there are a lot of rich/preppy kids who want a decent education but aren't looking to push themselves. Maybe even a bit of a party school.

And, yes, heinously expensive despite being merely a good-but-not-elite private university.

So, OP, I would say, consider GW if your daughter is particularly interested in DC and government/policy, but otherwise there are better choices.

this is spot on. If she wants to do something in politics, GW is great.

Otherwise, definitely not worth the money

 

[Guapo]

People can succeed going to college anywhere.

100%. The most important thing is grades. If you do well academically, you’ll be fine no matter where you go to school.

my wife is a legal recruiter; a 4.0 at a lesser ranked school is more desirable than a 2.8 at a higher ranked school.

If you had a GPA below a 3.7, her firm will not look at a resume, no matter where the candidate went to school.

 

[superjohn]

100%. The most important thing is grades. If you do well academically, you’ll be fine no matter where you to school.

my wife is a legal recruiter; a 4.0 at a lesser ranked school is more desirable than a 2.8 at a higher ranked school.

If you had a GPA below a 3.7, her firm will not look at a resume, no matter where the candidate went to school.

That seems like a really stupid policy.

 

[Guapo]

That seems like a really stupid policy.

I should say, specifically for their summer associate program...and obviously there are degrees to this. If someone from Harvard applies, that’s a different story. But, this policy holds for the schools they recruit from

 

[Tenspro2002]

100%. The most important thing is grades. If you do well academically, you’ll be fine no matter where you to school.

my wife is a legal recruiter; a 4.0 at a lesser ranked school is more desirable than a 2.8 at a higher ranked school.

If you had a GPA below a 3.7, her firm will not look at a resume, no matter where the candidate went to school.

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

 

[superjohn]

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

Some of the most successful people I've ever known didn't do well in college or even go to college. Seems like a way to miss out on some of the most talented people.

 

[Guapo]

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

im not even fully convinced about the research ones.

You can get close to the same engineering/science/tech education at places like Georgia Tech, Purdue, Michigan, and Cal for significantly less money

 

[Guapo]

Some of the most successful people I've ever known didn't do well in college or even go to college. Seems like a way to miss out on some of the most talented people.

lol not trying to be a smart ass here but I was talking specifically about hiring lawyers, so you kinda need college degrees for that

 

[HuskyHawk]

That seems like a really stupid policy.

I should say, specifically for their summer associate program...and obviously there are degrees to this. If someone from Harvard applies, that’s a different story. But, this policy holds for the schools they recruit from

It really depends on the firm. The L students on Law Review and top 5-10% of their class will do fine at almost any school. They will be recruited. Law school however, is highly localized. So a firm in Indianapolis will likely to prioritize a kid at an Indiana school who is going to get some Indiana law. So the top kids at IU are going to be better for them than a middling student at Duke.

The big national firms, including the biggest (which is in your city) they are going to recruit kids from the top schools more broadly.

 

[superjohn]

lol not trying to be a smart ass here but I was talking specifically about hiring lawyers, so you kinda need college degrees for that

I missed the legal recruiter part, lol.

 

[Tenspro2002]

im not even fully convinced about the research ones.

You can get close to the same engineering/science/tech education at places like Georgia Tech, Purdue, Michigan, and Cal for significantly less money

Yeah, that's a whole separate issue -- how much hands-on STEM work do undergrads really get access to at the elite private R1 universities?

As someone who went to a private liberal arts college for undergrad and then an R1 for grad school, I can tell you that undergrads got a lot more high-level research exposure at the liberal arts college. Might be true for public universities too, which can also provide good value for the money.

I just know a whole bunch of mediocre prep-school kids who went to these expensive middling private colleges/universities, and it just couldn't possibly have been worthwhile financially.

 

[Guapo]

It really depends on the firm. The L students on Law Review and top 5-10% of their class will do fine at almost any school. They will be recruited. Law school however, is highly localized. So a firm in Indianapolis will likely to prioritize a kid at an Indiana school who is going to get some Indiana law. So the top kids at IU are going to be better for them than a middling student at Duke.

The big national firms, including the biggest (which is in your city) they are going to recruit kids from the top schools more broadly.

Right, we’re in Atlanta so they do OCIs at Emory, UGA, Duke, Vandy, (I think) UVA and a couple others that I can’t think of off the top of my head

 

[Guapo]

Yeah, that's a whole separate issue -- how much hands-on STEM work do undergrads really get access to at the elite private R1 universities?

As someone who went to a private liberal arts college for undergrad and then an R1 for grad school, I can tell you that undergrads got a lot more high-level research exposure at the liberal arts college. Might be true for public universities too, which can also provide good value for the money.

I just know a whole bunch of mediocre prep-school kids who went to these expensive middling private colleges/universities, and it just couldn't possibly have been worthwhile financially.

lol I’m from Glastonbury. I know a boatload of kids who went to places like Roger Williams etc. because they looked down their noses at state schools and are now in a ton of debt

 

[HuskyHawk]

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

 

[Guapo]

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

I graduated High School recently enough (2009) where I can confirm you can definitely play the schools off of each other for aid

 

[HooperScooper]

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

You absolutely can do that and you should. Some schools are more receptive to it than others. But there's no downside to asking.

 

[Tenspro2002]

I should add that even going to elite colleges is no guarantee set you up for life if you're not willing to work. We just got the class update for the last year (I graduated in the late 00s), and like half of the entries are people who dropped out of PhD programs to become baristas. I know someone who dropped out of college and is now an Uber driver. (Of course, there were a good number of doctors, scholars, lawyers, non-profit execs, etc. too)

And in my PhD program at grad school, our group had kids from both elite private colleges and so-so to good public universities, and all of them went on to get terrific jobs in the field.

It's not so much the school as how you take advantage of the opportunities when you're there, though some schools open the door a little more for you and some you have to do more of the heavy-lifting yourself.

 

[Tenspro2002]

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

Ah, that helps, and isn't something I really considered.

If you're getting aid that makes those private schools financially equivalent to public schools, that makes them much more attractive.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I graduated High School recently enough (2009) where I can confirm you can definitely play the schools off of each other for aid

You absolutely can do that and you should. Some schools are more receptive to it than others. But there's no downside to asking.

This would kind of make my day really, if it worked out. The questions on Fordham were triggered in part because it's a pretty well regarded school (USN #66 if you care about such things) and did cut tuition. I wasn't exactly expecting that (I did expect it from UVM, Loyola, St. Joes, DePaul).