OT: College in the COVID era

[Tenspro2002]

100%. The most important thing is grades. If you do well academically, you’ll be fine no matter where you to school.

my wife is a legal recruiter; a 4.0 at a lesser ranked school is more desirable than a 2.8 at a higher ranked school.

If you had a GPA below a 3.7, her firm will not look at a resume, no matter where the candidate went to school.

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

 

[superjohn]

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

Some of the most successful people I've ever known didn't do well in college or even go to college. Seems like a way to miss out on some of the most talented people.

 

[Guapo]

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

im not even fully convinced about the research ones.

You can get close to the same engineering/science/tech education at places like Georgia Tech, Purdue, Michigan, and Cal for significantly less money

 

[Guapo]

Some of the most successful people I've ever known didn't do well in college or even go to college. Seems like a way to miss out on some of the most talented people.

lol not trying to be a smart ass here but I was talking specifically about hiring lawyers, so you kinda need college degrees for that

 

[HuskyHawk]

That seems like a really stupid policy.

I should say, specifically for their summer associate program...and obviously there are degrees to this. If someone from Harvard applies, that’s a different story. But, this policy holds for the schools they recruit from

It really depends on the firm. The L students on Law Review and top 5-10% of their class will do fine at almost any school. They will be recruited. Law school however, is highly localized. So a firm in Indianapolis will likely to prioritize a kid at an Indiana school who is going to get some Indiana law. So the top kids at IU are going to be better for them than a middling student at Duke.

The big national firms, including the biggest (which is in your city) they are going to recruit kids from the top schools more broadly.

 

[superjohn]

lol not trying to be a smart ass here but I was talking specifically about hiring lawyers, so you kinda need college degrees for that

I missed the legal recruiter part, lol.

 

[Tenspro2002]

im not even fully convinced about the research ones.

You can get close to the same engineering/science/tech education at places like Georgia Tech, Purdue, Michigan, and Cal for significantly less money

Yeah, that's a whole separate issue -- how much hands-on STEM work do undergrads really get access to at the elite private R1 universities?

As someone who went to a private liberal arts college for undergrad and then an R1 for grad school, I can tell you that undergrads got a lot more high-level research exposure at the liberal arts college. Might be true for public universities too, which can also provide good value for the money.

I just know a whole bunch of mediocre prep-school kids who went to these expensive middling private colleges/universities, and it just couldn't possibly have been worthwhile financially.

 

[Guapo]

It really depends on the firm. The L students on Law Review and top 5-10% of their class will do fine at almost any school. They will be recruited. Law school however, is highly localized. So a firm in Indianapolis will likely to prioritize a kid at an Indiana school who is going to get some Indiana law. So the top kids at IU are going to be better for them than a middling student at Duke.

The big national firms, including the biggest (which is in your city) they are going to recruit kids from the top schools more broadly.

Right, we’re in Atlanta so they do OCIs at Emory, UGA, Duke, Vandy, (I think) UVA and a couple others that I can’t think of off the top of my head

 

[Guapo]

Yeah, that's a whole separate issue -- how much hands-on STEM work do undergrads really get access to at the elite private R1 universities?

As someone who went to a private liberal arts college for undergrad and then an R1 for grad school, I can tell you that undergrads got a lot more high-level research exposure at the liberal arts college. Might be true for public universities too, which can also provide good value for the money.

I just know a whole bunch of mediocre prep-school kids who went to these expensive middling private colleges/universities, and it just couldn't possibly have been worthwhile financially.

lol I’m from Glastonbury. I know a boatload of kids who went to places like Roger Williams etc. because they looked down their noses at state schools and are now in a ton of debt

 

[HuskyHawk]

That last line is kind of bull____. Some colleges grade considerably harder than others, some classes are considerably harder than others. Someone who earned a 3.6 GPA at an elite college where you're taking grad-level seminars on constitutional law is much more qualified than someone who got a 4.0 GPA in ceramics (no offense to artists).

But besides that, I agree that if you're willing to work, you can prove your qualifications and get a lot of value from just about any school.

Just to get on my soapbox for a minute, generally speaking, private colleges and universities are not worth the money, except:

• Ivies (just opens up so many doors, in addition to being academic powerhouses)
• Top 3-5 liberal arts colleges like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a few others
• Elite research universities like MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, Stanford, dook (hate to say it), and a handful of others
• Schools that specialize in a particular area of study that you're >80% sure you want to pursue

The schools on HH's list are close to these categories, some more borderline than others. Of course, if money isn't so much of a concern, then have at it.

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

 

[Guapo]

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

I graduated High School recently enough (2009) where I can confirm you can definitely play the schools off of each other for aid

 

[HooperScooper]

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

You absolutely can do that and you should. Some schools are more receptive to it than others. But there's no downside to asking.

 

[Tenspro2002]

I should add that even going to elite colleges is no guarantee set you up for life if you're not willing to work. We just got the class update for the last year (I graduated in the late 00s), and like half of the entries are people who dropped out of PhD programs to become baristas. I know someone who dropped out of college and is now an Uber driver. (Of course, there were a good number of doctors, scholars, lawyers, non-profit execs, etc. too)

And in my PhD program at grad school, our group had kids from both elite private colleges and so-so to good public universities, and all of them went on to get terrific jobs in the field.

It's not so much the school as how you take advantage of the opportunities when you're there, though some schools open the door a little more for you and some you have to do more of the heavy-lifting yourself.

 

[Tenspro2002]

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

Ah, that helps, and isn't something I really considered.

If you're getting aid that makes those private schools financially equivalent to public schools, that makes them much more attractive.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I graduated High School recently enough (2009) where I can confirm you can definitely play the schools off of each other for aid

You absolutely can do that and you should. Some schools are more receptive to it than others. But there's no downside to asking.

This would kind of make my day really, if it worked out. The questions on Fordham were triggered in part because it's a pretty well regarded school (USN #66 if you care about such things) and did cut tuition. I wasn't exactly expecting that (I did expect it from UVM, Loyola, St. Joes, DePaul).

 

[UConnRock]

this is spot on. If she wants to do something in politics, GW is great.

Otherwise, definitely not worth the money

My son hated that GW had no dining halls. Students were given vouchers to local restaurants. Other that that, the neighborhood was very nice

 

[Guapo]

My son hated that GW had no dining halls. Students were given vouchers to local restaurants. Other that that, the neighborhood was very nice

interesting. I didn’t know that about GW.

At least there are plenty of restaurant options around

 

[HuskyHawk]

My son hated that GW had no dining halls. Students were given vouchers to local restaurants. Other that that, the neighborhood was very nice

That is really weird. All the schools we actually visited make a huge deal of their dining halls and meal plans.

 

[mussels]

I assume you will be visiting whatever school it is before pulling the trigger. If that's not correct, would strongly recommend.

 

[M.S.G.]

I'll go as far as to say I was completely wrong in August. I looked back at how much I was against in-person schooling yadda yadda. Well I wasn't completely wrong - it's not like my school has been in the whole time. However, the fact that my school has had the success it has is because we started the year in-person. Sure we've had 3 hiccups of 2 weeks to a month, but being in school for the full month of September was PARAMOUNT.

I look at what a mess Massachusetts schools have become, they were all about pushing things back and not being in-person off the bat and it's had such a detrimental effect on the students and their progress. Our friends have 2 high school students and we were over there for dinner last weekend and the kids tell me what a joke their school year has been. Teachers half assing it, they haven't been in-person YET...

I'll admit I was wrong, being in there with my students for the first month gave me the opportunity to build a rapport and make those connections to make surviving all of these hiccups into remote learning. I assume there will be a hiccup or two until we get to May but I imagine we'll be in the hybrid system for the rest of the school year.

I can't even imagine what a mess college is going to be with all of these kids going back. The breakouts will absolutely happen, and the kids will be blamed for it, I think college administrators have come out looking like supervillains the most throughout this whole fiasco.

 

[husky429]

I should add that even going to elite colleges is no guarantee set you up for life if you're not willing to work. We just got the class update for the last year (I graduated in the late 00s), and like half of the entries are people who dropped out of PhD programs to become baristas. I know someone who dropped out of college and is now an Uber driver. (Of course, there were a good number of doctors, scholars, lawyers, non-profit execs, etc. too)

And in my PhD program at grad school, our group had kids from both elite private colleges and so-so to good public universities, and all of them went on to get terrific jobs in the field.

It's not so much the school as how you take advantage of the opportunities when you're there, though some schools open the door a little more for you and some you have to do more of the heavy-lifting yourself.

My fiance's R1 PhD program has something like a 30-50% attrition rate in most cohorts. She is the last one from her cohort left: 1 switched to a different field, 1 went to law school, 1 is a "digital nomad" now, and another moved back to China to do nothing.

It must be brutal financially and mentally to spend 4 years of undergrad, 2 years on your first Master's and 3 years getting to ABD, just to leave the program. The guy who went to law school ended up at UVA, my fiance's alma mater. The one who switched to linguistics is at NYU, I think. Like... people who get into funded R1 PhD programs are really smart. It must take some really serious mental health struggles to totally give up and become a barista or whatever else.

And in a slightly related note... Word is that community colleges are becoming a lot more viable option for people who just got their PhDs as long as you still work at publishing. People expect enrollment to be increasing pretty dramatically over the next decade, and jobs basically all require PhDs at this point. She interviewed at some comm college in Michigan(?) last week, and they pay around 70k starting out with state benefits.... which is way, way better than most adjuncting gigs as you probably know.

 

[Tenspro2002]

My fiance's R1 PhD program has something like a 30-50% attrition rate in most cohorts. She is the last one from her cohort left: 1 switched to a different field, 1 went to law school, 1 is a "digital nomad" now, and another moved back to China to do nothing.

It must be brutal financially and mentally to spend 4 years of undergrad, 2 years on your first Master's and 3 years getting to ABD, just to leave the program. The guy who went to law school ended up at UVA, my fiance's alma mater. The one who switched to linguistics is at NYU, I think. Like... people who get into funded R1 PhD programs are really smart. It must take some really serious mental health struggles to totally give up and become a barista or whatever else.

And in a slightly related note... Word is that community colleges are becoming a lot more viable option for people who just got their PhDs as long as you still work at publishing. People expect enrollment to be increasing pretty dramatically over the next decade, and jobs basically all require PhDs at this point. She interviewed at some comm college in Michigan(?) last week, and they pay around 70k starting out with state benefits.... which is way, way better than most adjuncting gigs as you probably know.

Adjuncting is manufactured poverty for PhDs. That's why I went into a field where I could be a researcher without having to be a professor. No interest in the faculty rat race.

Teaching at community colleges is a good option, probably underutilized landing spot for new PhDs (of which there are way too many for the number of open faculty positions).

 

[the Q]

It really depends on the firm. The L students on Law Review and top 5-10% of their class will do fine at almost any school. They will be recruited. Law school however, is highly localized. So a firm in Indianapolis will likely to prioritize a kid at an Indiana school who is going to get some Indiana law. So the top kids at IU are going to be better for them than a middling student at Duke.

The big national firms, including the biggest (which is in your city) they are going to recruit kids from the top schools more broadly.

But they still prefer local ties.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I assume you will be visiting whatever school it is before pulling the trigger. If that's not correct, would strongly recommend.

If possible. Most won't allow tours now, but you can at least walk around. We were lucky we went to several in fall of 2019.

 

[mussels]

If possible. Most won't allow tours now, but you can at least walk around. We were lucky we went to several in fall of 2019.

Highly recommend going anyway. You will be able to evaluate the area, and your daughter will still be able to randomly talk to kids.

 

[UConnRock]

Highly recommend going anyway. You will be able to evaluate the area, and your daughter will still be able to randomly talk to kids.

Agreed, we didn’t visit very many schools (Wake, UNC, Duke, Rice, UVA), and Wake was the only school that did admissions tours during COVID. At all other schools the students were great about answering random questions. They seemed to understand the challenges HS seniors were facing with COVID.

 

[upstater]

It's different for everyone. A lot of private schools are providing a ton of financial aid. While I am not getting any of that, we are finding that there is merit aid available. So far, 5 out of 6 acceptances have come with merit aid that makes the privates about the same cost as out of state publics. And with that, smaller class sizes and better student to teacher ratios in general.

It's actually something I was going to ask @upstater about. I've heard that once the acceptances are in, there is room to "bargain" for merit aid at some schools. If Fordham gives us $17k a year and BU gives us nothing, can we go to BU and ask for some consideration to swing the acceptance to them? Some people say yes, you can.

I don't really know how this works. I probably know as much as you--it's anecdotal. I've read and heard that people have failed to get a better deal. But then I have close friends who DID get a better deal. But in both cases I know of personally it had to do with interpretation of assets and income. In my friend's case, their second address/home was actually used regularly for out of state work, and this was crucial in getting them a lot more aid when the school reconsidered.

If you have a student whose class rank and SATs are above the average at the school you're negotiating with, I would definitely do it.

 

[upstater]

Ah, that helps, and isn't something I really considered.

If you're getting aid that makes those private schools financially equivalent to public schools, that makes them much more attractive.

The truth of the matter is that in terms of expenditures per student, the schools are very close. Public schools spend almost as much per student as the privates. At the privates, they are charging tuition over and above actual expenditures per student, and that amount of money is naturally part of the process that sees 40% of the students receiving need-blind financial aid. In other words, the money is redistributed from those paying full freight to those who could not otherwise afford it. This NEVER happens at public schools since the expenditure per student is always much higher than the tuition.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The truth of the matter is that in terms of expenditures per student, the schools are very close. Public schools spend almost as much per student as the privates. At the privates, they are charging tuition over and above actual expenditures per student, and that amount of money is naturally part of the process that sees 40% of the students receiving need-blind financial aid. In other words, the money is redistributed from those paying full freight to those who could not otherwise afford it. This NEVER happens at public schools since the expenditure per student is always much higher than the tuition.

I believe that last line if you look at the aggregate, but I suspect that out of state kids are charged tuition above expenditures. Especially at the schools that can get away with it. Out of state seems affordable at big publics in the south and midwest, but is comparable to private schools in a lot of places.

We filed a FAFSA, but I didn't (and won't) submit a CSS.

 

[upstater]

I believe that last line if you look at the aggregate, but I suspect that out of state kids are charged tuition above expenditures. Especially at the schools that can get away with it. Out of state seems affordable at big publics in the south and midwest, but is comparable to private schools in a lot of places.

We filed a FAFSA, but I didn't (and won't) submit a CSS.

Expenditures per student at public research universities should be very close to $30k. So if it's Michigan and they are charging $40k for out of state, it is just profit for them. But it all depends on the college/department as well since expenditures per student in Engineering are 3x what they are in Liberal Arts/Humanities. If you look at Canadian schools, they actually charge differential tuitions depending on your major. Last I looked a few years ago, U. Toronto liberal arts/ Humanities were $7-8k for Americans and $13-14k for engineering. They do the same for Canadian students but I'm not quite sure what the tuition charge is.