Coach K

[intlzncster]

Are you kidding me!?!? You obviously haven't watched many of his games. The kid can do it all at a very high level. In one of the earlier tournament games he threw this unbelievable one handed bounce pass from the top of the key that hit around mid Court, bounced right into the hands of a streaking teammate for Breakaway dunk. He takes guys off the dribble in traffic and finishes in the paint at an unbelievable rate. He can knock down the three ball at a solid clip for a big guy that takes very few each game. Imagine if he was taking more from outside and got some sort of rhythm? But of course, as someone pointed out, K probably wins this game if he deployed a game plan that kept Zion's ass inside the paint most of the time where he's a beast and is almost unstoppable when he gets the ball there.

As for Coach K being overrated, I kind of agree with the original post in this thread. K wins a crap load of every year, but he does it with a lot more talent than most teams have. I've always wished that someone could figure out some sort of analytical analysis using player rankings along with postseason success to see what coaches have done more with less and less with more. I think Jim Calhoun has to go down as the Coach that has done more with less when you look at his postseason success with rosters that weren't full of highly ranked recruits. He'd land one Burger AA every year or so, but still the rest of the roster with a bunch of moderately top 100 recruits ranging between 35 to a 125.

As for K's results in this year's tournament, you have to take two things into consideration that worked against him. One is Cam Reddish wasn't exactly 100%. If he was, don't you think he would have made up the two points that would have put Duke over the top against MSU?

The second is, this game should never have taken place in the elite eight. What in the world was the selection committee thinking, placing the top number two seeded team against the top number one seeded team? This game should have at least been in the final four or maybe even in the championship game. With that said, it does seem that Coach K again was outcoached when it counted most. They were fortunate to get by UCF and Virginia Tech.

I must admit, I'm conflicted as to my assessment of what he accomplished this season, since he needed to coach up freshman, granted very talented ones, into a final four caliber team in just one season. And there didn't seem to be a lot of depth on that team either, which usually has disastrous results in the NCAA tournament.

One thing I've always wondered, what a coach like Jim Calhoun could have done with the type of talent Coach K has had year after year?

Lastly, I'd be remiss to mention that Coach K went up against and lost to one of the best coaches ever when it comes to doing more with less. Coach Izzo has always been excellent at finding under ranked recruits and coaching them up to be very good players by the end of the season. He always seems to have a rough start to the season but gets his players playing their best basketball come March. Granted he does get some highly ranked players, but without looking closely at this over the years, his recruiting classes are nothing like the recruiting hall that Duke, UNC, UK and KU pull in year after year.

Dog coming in hot from the clouds! Good to see a post from DogMania.

 

[intlzncster]

Nobody here says that obviously, but I swear ive seen posts like that on the Syracuse board

There's your problem.

 

[intlzncster]

. This is obviously a homer take, but if you give Jim Calhoun that talent, he is retiring with at least 7-8 rings.

I honestly don't know about that. I'm not sure JC would thrive with a bunch of 1 and dones. JC molded men. Put them through the crucible. Broke themdown. Made them tough as nails. But that took time. I'm not sure one year and then full turnover of the roster is conducive to his style of coaching.

 

[superjohn]

He is unique. He is a great prospect. He is also fat. Maybe he slims down to 265. Walk and chew gum.

Would you take Zion over say, Joel Embiid, Giannis or Anthony Davis? Those guys all have length on them, Zion is a 6-foot-7 PF.

He is going to kill 1-on-1 in the NBA. And in transition will dunk.

But, I watch a ton of NBA, his length bothers me. Wasn't he 1-of-9 against Fall? Struggled to get the shot over him. It is his motor, relentlessness that I love about him. The kid plays harder than anyone else on the floor.

Just saying there are questions about his length and his jump shot as well as his handle. He has to be a perimeter 4 in the NBA. There are no longer low post power forwards anymore.

We would expect this player to be first team all nba with the hype? Right? That's a high bar.

You intimated he isn't unique, that's why my response. He's a lot more explosive than Larry Johnson pre injury. The only comparison I can come up with is Barkely but Zion is even more athletic and explosive than Barkley and young Barkley is one of the most freakishly explosive and powerful players ever. Barkley played mean as hell, not sure Zion has that, few players do. A cross between Barkley and Blake is all I can really come up with. So much of the stuff being thrown around by posters is just ridiculous though. People are calling him unskilled, his athleticism won't stand out because there are so many great athletes in the NBA etc.

The idea he's fat is crazy, you don't know how muscle and fat work if you think Zion is fat.

 

[Purple Stein]

Looks like Team USA is kicking the tires on some non-unique fat kid who can’t pass.

Zion Not Good, May Only Play For Best Basketball Team on Planet

 

[UConnRock]

I'm not a Duke fan but who are you to tell them they don't?

Like I said, they think they do and at some level probably do have a lasting bond, but time and battles are what creates somet

Looks like Team USA is kicking the tires on some non-unique fat kid who can’t pass.

Zion Not Good, May Only Play For Best Basketball Team on Planet

fits the criteria, only Duke players get that form of recognition. See Laettner as the misfit on the dream team

 

[jibsey]

Zion in the pros will be down 25-30 pounds and he’ll be unbelievable.

 

[superjohn]

Zion in the pros will be down 25-30 pounds and he’ll be unbelievable.

I don't think he should. He's not fat in the least and that size is what makes him so insanely unique. He's not that tall and his wingspan isn't too long. Being bigger and more athletic than everyone is a big part of what makes him such a freak.

 

[billybud]

K took four freshman pretty far...the teams that made the Final Four seem to be upper classmen driven.

I can imagine this Dule team if they were playing together in another two years as juniors....

 

[Crank]

. . . but at 285 I can't see him being a good perimeter defender . . .

What does weight have to do with it?
The guy is super quick, has great vertical, and great anticipation. I think he's going to be a phenomenal perimeter defender.
If you're thinking that this guy is "bulky" or something, because of his total weight, I'd have to disagree - everybody not named "Zion" at his height and weight would be suspect. Not him. He's super quick. I think he will be a great rebounder, defender, and inside scoring threat.
20 years ago, I'd say he'd have a shot at being the MVP of the league.
We're up to what? 30 threes a game attempted, per team? That's probably moving toward 40. Which will be 45% or so of all shots taken.
He struggled with the college 3 and has a flat shot.
If he gets the NBA 3 up to close to 40%, he's going to be the best offensive player in the league, easily.
I'm very curious, and I hope he does it.
Love guys who can dominate inside and out.

 

[billybud]

Michael Jordan's 3 pointer percentage hit was under 20% for his first four years...

 

[tzznandrew]

Michael Jordan's 3 pointer percentage hit was under 20% for his first four years...

Yeah, but that was a very different league, more akin to LeBron's first few years than to anything we've seen in the last 10.

 

[mauconnfan]

You intimated he isn't unique, that's why my response. He's a lot more explosive than Larry Johnson pre injury. The only comparison I can come up with is Barkely but Zion is even more athletic and explosive than Barkley and young Barkley is one of the most freakishly explosive and powerful players ever. Barkley played mean as hell, not sure Zion has that, few players do. A cross between Barkley and Blake is all I can really come up with. So much of the stuff being thrown around by posters is just ridiculous though. People are calling him unskilled, his athleticism won't stand out because there are so many great athletes in the NBA etc.

The idea he's fat is crazy, you don't know how muscle and fat work if you think Zion is fat.

I certainly now know how fat works and Zion is NOT fat. The dudes a brick wall of muscle, obvious by the fact not too many moved him at all near the basket. And very few stood up to his pounding.

 

[pj]

This thread is a great insight into future posts, and tells you how quickly these people will turn on any coach if they aren't winning at a clip higher than the greatest coaches of all time. I mean, what happens if Danny Hurley takes this team from where it is now to three straight E8s and makes a Final Four, but no title? Then they get upset early the next year? They'll be calling for his head.

Some of us remember Jim Calhoun 1986-1998. 3 E8s in 1990, 1995, 1998, not one Final Four.

We supported him then, we'll support Danny now. It's about quality basketball.

 

[tzznandrew]

Some of us remember Jim Calhoun 1986-1998. 3 E8s in 1990, 1995, 1998, not one Final Four.

We supported him then, we'll support Danny now. It's about quality basketball.

Oh, I know some of us remember. But that board is not this board. Not by a longshot.

 

[billybud]

Yeah, but that was a very different league, more akin to LeBron's first few years than to anything we've seen in the last 10.

Sure it was a different league...but not talking about number of 3 pointers shot...but % made...accuracy is accuracy...

You think that the league really changed overnight between Jordan's 4th and 6th year?

 

[jibsey]

I don't think he should. He's not fat in the least and that size is what makes him so insanely unique. He's not that tall and his wingspan isn't too long. Being bigger and more athletic than everyone is a big part of what makes him such a freak.

Zion already shows a good handle and since he is not a center I see him becoming an outside threat to go with his inside stuff. A little lighter and quicker but still an ox for strength, but also helps over the long NBA season to carry a bit less weight on his frame. LeBron 2.

 

[The Funster]

Out of curiosity, who are you taking ahead of him? Because this kid seems like the biggest no brainer since at least Anthony Davis.

That's a really good question. I think whoever has the #1 pick will feel immense pressure to select him. Were I a GM I'm sure I'd feel it too. Gun to my head, I'd take Barrett.

 

[Edward Sargent]

I can’t think of one.

Melo

 

[billybud]

MJ was the #3 pick in 1984...Akeem Olajuwon #1 and Sam Bowie was #2....Charles Barkley #5...and John Stockton #16.

The Blazers chose Sam Bowie over M Jordan because they needed a center.

But Akeem, MJ, and Barkley...what a crew to pick from.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

That's a really good question. I think whoever has the #1 pick will feel immense pressure to select him. Were I a GM I'm sure I'd feel it too. Gun to my head, I'd take Barrett.

You watched Duke this season and your takeaway was that Barrett was the pick?

 

[Dogdeacon]

That's a really good question. I think whoever has the #1 pick will feel immense pressure to select him. Were I a GM I'm sure I'd feel it too. Gun to my head, I'd take Barrett.

Do you mean you'd pick Barrett's career aka like his long-term upside over Zion's?
Or do you mean in a hypothetical world where you are a GM you'd actually take Barrett? Cuz obviously in the latter situation you have to TRADE the #1 pick b/c you'll get something for it ala Danny Ainge and then pick Barrett 2nd, 3rd or whatever. That takes double the balls as you'll forever be measured by what two guys do.

That kind of decision requires in-depth interviews - we can only guess on that as fans, again thinking to Ainge he must have seen things in the interview/time with Fultz that exposed the psychological risks.

 

[The Funster]

You watched Duke this season and your takeaway was that Barrett was the pick?

I'm not convinced that Zion is going to be the next great superstar to enter the NBA.

 

[The Funster]

Do you mean you'd pick Barrett's career aka like his long-term upside over Zion's?
Or do you mean in a hypothetical world where you are a GM you'd actually take Barrett? Cuz obviously in the latter situation you have to TRADE the #1 pick b/c you'll get something for it ala Danny Ainge and then pick Barrett 2nd, 3rd or whatever. That takes double the balls as you'll forever be measured by what two guys do.

That kind of decision requires in-depth interviews - we can only guess on that as fans, again thinking to Ainge he must have seen things in the interview/time with Fultz that exposed the psychological risks.

Here's my view of the college player entering the NBA: some players have a ton of talent but they rely on that talent too much and never put in the work needed to play at a high level in the NBA. Other kids have less talent but they put the work in and became great. Obviously, no one can read that in a kid.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I'm not convinced that Zion is going to be the next great superstar to enter the NBA.

But you are convinced that Barrett has a better chance of being that?

I mean, I get why Barrett was #1 overall coming into the season. He played for a loaded high school squad and Zion went to a small private school. But what did Barrett show you this season (compared to Zion) that would possibly justify taking him first?

 

[The Funster]

But you are convinced that Barrett has a better chance of being that?

I mean, I get why Barrett was #1 overall coming into the season. He played for a loaded high school squad and Zion went to a small private school. But what did Barrett show you this season (compared to Zion) that would possibly justify taking him first?

I don't either one does. I do think Barrett will be a better perimeter player than Zion though. Right now, Zion's best chance to carve out a spot is down low and the NBA is a perimeter focused game. If this was 20 years ago, Zion could be a better Barkley (and that's saying something) but this isn't that NBA anymore. I'll take a perimeter guy over an inside in today's NBA.

So you think Zion is going to be a superstar?

 

[Spaceman213J]

I think Zion will end up being al all-star. That said, when his skills begin to decline, it will be quick fall. His speed and explosiveness in that size is what makes him a special prospect. When he loses a step he'll become average pretty quickly.
Still, you would be nuts not to take him at the top. He's had one year in college and should develop nicely. Shooting almost always improves for players because of the sheer volume they put up between games and practice.
Tying this back to the topic, again, Coach K is a great coach, but there are questions about his development of players and he can be outcoached in game. I remember after the '99 championship one his former player said he was badly outcoached by Calhoun in that game.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't either one does. I do think Barrett will be a better perimeter player than Zion though. Right now, Zion's best chance to carve out a spot is down low and the NBA is a perimeter focused game. If this was 20 years ago, Zion could be a better Barkley (and that's saying something) but this isn't that NBA anymore. I'll take a perimeter guy over an inside in today's NBA.

So you think Zion is going to be a superstar?

Following superstars are not perimeter focused: Giannis, Joel Embid, Draymond, LeBron, Kawhi, Davis, Towns, Aldridge. The game has changed but high percentage 2's are as good as 3's. Celtics have had a crap year because too many of their forwards overemphasize shooting from deep vs getting to the rim.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

So you think Zion is going to be a superstar?

Yes, barring injury of course. And the idea that he's going to play exclusively on the block is completely out of step with today's NBA. This is not Corliss Williamson we're talking about here. This kid is going to be a playmaker.

 

[superjohn]

I don't either one does. I do think Barrett will be a better perimeter player than Zion though. Right now, Zion's best chance to carve out a spot is down low and the NBA is a perimeter focused game. If this was 20 years ago, Zion could be a better Barkley (and that's saying something) but this isn't that NBA anymore. I'll take a perimeter guy over an inside in today's NBA.

So you think Zion is going to be a superstar?

I'm confused by all the Barrett hype, if there is anyone who gets by on size in college it's him. He's really good at driving left, outside of that I don't see what translates well to the NBA. Not the greatest sample size but he certainly didn't show he had the clutch gene, it's insane K always went to him at the end.