Cincy approved $85m stadium expansion

[upstater]

Nobody, is saying this is the end all be all, but as Frank The tank has said repeatedly on here, other schools are gunning for what we perceive is our spot to lose should a conference expand.

I've never been one to say if we expanded the rent we would've been chosen already, in fact I was against expanding the rent until it was needed.

However, Houston, Cinci, UNLV, and hell even Temple are building new stadiums, and or making plans to invest in facilities.

Even if UConn were to come out with a blue print or some cool graphics i would feel better about things.

Just the way things are now, I feel like the school is fine with the status quo and that in turn has damaged enthusiasm from the fan base.

I'm not about to get all HFD, but would it kill UConn to commission someone to put together a rendering of 55k Rent with the new score board and UConn blue draping over the concrete gray at the rent?

Imagine Cinci today releases plans to upgrade to 40k and then we can reveal our plans to go to 50k? College football is all public opinion and right now we are absolutely being crushed.

When UConn didn't get into the ACC it hurt badly. if I were the B12, I wouldn't be looking UConn's way, and that has absolutely nothing to do with UConn's fan interest in value. It's simply a question of geography. UConn fans should prepare to be disappointed should the B12 expand. I can't see it.

 

[freescooter]

A lot of people are focusing on the quantity of seats as opposed to the quality of seats.



This is also where college sports stadium expansions and renovations are heading. That's why Louisville has been able to show such a massive revenue increase with its new basketball arena

Actually, that a result of A. Cooking the books; and B. Screwing the City of Louisville with a phony lease. The city is going on the hook for 9.8 million in revenue bond (TIF bonds)payments that were supposed to be covered but weren't because UL's lease is a sweetheart deal. UL controls the scheduling, gets a large chunk of the revenue and can veto proposed events. Louisville won't permit a 2nd tenant which is necessary to cover the costs of the project. And worse, it has a vested interest in reducing the number of events in the center and its income because they also have a right to purchase it if it fails to meet its payment obligations. In other words, it is in Louisville's interest to have the project fail because they they can step in and buy it at a discount. The city is projected to have to come up with an extra $3.3 million over the $6.5 it was already ponying up annually for the foreseeable future. And the $6.5 million was already about 3 million more than was originally projected to be its annual share. The Arena Authority also burned through its capital reserve fund to cover debt service before it went to the City. The bonds were reduced to junk status last year and Moodys wrote:
The downgrade principally reflects the lower than expected state sales TIF revenues, high operating expenses of the arena, increased dependence on the Metro Louisville’s additional payments, and the weakened financial metrics going forward. The rating outlook is negative. The negative outlook reflects the uncertainty of TIF revenue growth as well as the narrow debt service coverage ratio going forward. Current near to midterm coverage ratio forecasts fall short of initial projections even after taking into account the expected growth of future TIF revenues. TIF revenues may not fully support the arena’s debt service as initially projected in the near future.
And for what its worth as a side note, after starting high, income from luxury seating has fallen the last two years, form a high of 1.7 million to 1.4 million in 2012. That project was a disaster for everyone involved except UL. A transfer from the pockets of the louisville taxpayers to the lousiville athletic department is what led to the massive revenue increase from YUM.

 

[woomba]

The very first page of the budget link you gave me stated this:

The very first page of the budget link you gave me stated this:

The Texas article is interesting only because the writer breaks down how some of the sausage is made not only in terms of debt but also in terms of how universities count donations and royalties.

That's the figure for the increase from the previous year, not the total. The Big House expansion project's been going on since 2007.

If you look at the components of the debt, the additional debt service is mostly from the Basketball arena renovation.

 

[woomba]

Actually, that a result of A. Cooking the books; and B. Screwing the City of Louisville with a phony lease. The city is going on the hook for 9.8 million in revenue bond (TIF bonds)payments that were supposed to be covered but weren't because UL's lease is a sweetheart deal. UL controls the scheduling, gets a large chunk of the revenue and can veto proposed events. Louisville won't permit a 2nd tenant which is necessary to cover the costs of the project. And worse, it has a vested interest in reducing the number of events in the center and its income because they also have a right to purchase it if it fails to meet its payment obligations. In other words, it is in Louisville's interest to have the project fail because they they can step in and buy it at a discount. The city is projected to have to come up with an extra $3.3 million over the $6.5 it was already ponying up annually for the foreseeable future. And the $6.5 million was already about 3 million more than was originally projected to be its annual share. The Arena Authority also burned through its capital reserve fund to cover debt service before it went to the City. The bonds were reduced to junk status last year and Moodys wrote:
The downgrade principally reflects the lower than expected state sales TIF revenues, high operating expenses of the arena, increased dependence on the Metro Louisville’s additional payments, and the weakened financial metrics going forward. The rating outlook is negative. The negative outlook reflects the uncertainty of TIF revenue growth as well as the narrow debt service coverage ratio going forward. Current near to midterm coverage ratio forecasts fall short of initial projections even after taking into account the expected growth of future TIF revenues. TIF revenues may not fully support the arena’s debt service as initially projected in the near future.
And for what its worth as a side note, after starting high, income from luxury seating has fallen the last two years, form a high of 1.7 million to 1.4 million in 2012. That project was a disaster for everyone involved except UL. A transfer from the pockets of the louisville taxpayers to the lousiville athletic department is what led to the massive revenue increase from YUM.

I'm still dumbfounded that the city actually went along with that deal. Anyone with a brain can see that they'll be losing money on that all day long.

 

[upstater]

That's the figure for the increase from the previous year, not the total. The Big House expansion project's been going on since 2007.

If you look at the components of the debt, the additional debt service is mostly from the Basketball arena renovation.

Yep, when last I looked at this, I went through the 2010 budget. You can see in your link that in 2010 the payout was $2m. It went up to $10m in 2011 and has been there the last 2 years.

My only question is this. The bond was secured in 2007. For 3 years, the AD was only paying $2m on it. So how do we know that they are paying the total amount now when they weren't paying it in 2010? Someone like Pudge would need to weigh in on this to tell us if $10m-11m a year is enough to service a $226m bond. Back in 2007 when they secured the bond, the press release said that increased revenue from the renovation (mainly due to premium seating) would generate $14 million that would "help pay for improvements throughout the stadium, such as more concession and restroom facilities, wider aisles and additional concourse space. The most visible change to the 80-year-old stadium would be the construction of two large structures that will span the east and west sidelines and top out at 10 feet above the existing scoreboards. Construction is scheduled to begin after the 2007 season."

When you add Chrisler, something tells me that $10-11m doesn't cut it. I'm not knocking Michigan, they have a surplus of $7m, $8m and $10m the last 3 years. Losing money on sports is not wrong. I was just pointing out that the way these things are accounted and presented are sometimes a little phony (or worse). Never believe the press releases.

 

[UCFBfan]

I'm not about to get all HFD, but would it kill UConn to commission someone to put together a rendering of 55k Rent with the new score board and UConn blue draping over the concrete gray at the rent?

Imagine Cinci today releases plans to upgrade to 40k and then we can reveal our plans to go to 50k? College football is all public opinion and right now we are absolutely being crushed.

Is it really all about public opinion? Does it really matter? Wasn't UConn the public, odds on favorite to take MD's spot? Louisville seemed to come out of nowhere and became the media darling only a day or so before it was a sure thing. I'd be absolutely SHOCKED if UConn doesn't have these plans already spread to other conferences. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but I really think UConn has learned their lesson from the last go round and are ready to move if needed.

Why put out renderings of something you aren't planning on doing unless you get what you want. Would they expand if the ACC called? Would that be necessary? Would it be more harmful to release plans and then three years later still do nothing? Doesn't that show an even less lack of commitment? I dunno if I truly believe that public opinion is the be all, end all here.

Once again....I could be giving UConn too much credit....

 

[frankthetank]

When UConn didn't get into the ACC it hurt badly. if I were the B12, I wouldn't be looking UConn's way, and that has absolutely nothing to do with UConn's fan interest in value. It's simply a question of geography. UConn fans should prepare to be disappointed should the B12 expand. I can't see it.

This is the perception against UConn with respect to the Big 12, but there are counterarguments to this. A lot of people seem to assume that BYU is geographically friendly for the Big 12, but it's actually as much of a geographic outlier for the Big 12 as West Virginia (only going west instead of east). A Big 12 expansion with both Cincinnati and UConn (in conjunction with WVU) would provide a more geographically compact eastern wing of the league compared to any combo with BYU. I'm not saying that's a slam dunk argument (as BYU's perceived football value may trump everything in the same manner that WVU did as a favorite of TV executives), but I also don't think geography in and of itself is a dealbreaker since WVU is already there. UConn's surrogates in the media and PR circles need to get the message out where the general public at least comes away thinking, "UConn in an expanded Big 12 actually isn't that bad geographically."

 

[woomba]

Yep, when last I looked at this, I went through the 2010 budget. You can see in your link that in 2010 the payout was $2m. It went up to $10m in 2011 and has been there the last 2 years.

My only question is this. The bond was secured in 2007. For 3 years, the AD was only paying $2m on it. So how do we know that they are paying the total amount now when they weren't paying it in 2010? Someone like Pudge would need to weigh in on this to tell us if $10m-11m a year is enough to service a $226m bond. Back in 2007 when they secured the bond, the press release said that increased revenue from the renovation (mainly due to premium seating) would generate $14 million that would "help pay for improvements throughout the stadium, such as more concession and restroom facilities, wider aisles and additional concourse space. The most visible change to the 80-year-old stadium would be the construction of two large structures that will span the east and west sidelines and top out at 10 feet above the existing scoreboards. Construction is scheduled to begin after the 2007 season."

When you add Chrisler, something tells me that $10-11m doesn't cut it. I'm not knocking Michigan, they have a surplus of $7m, $8m and $10m the last 3 years. Losing money on sports is not wrong. I was just pointing out that the way these things are accounted and presented are sometimes a little phony (or worse). Never believe the press releases.

Maybe the bond payments were simply not due for the few years of issue? This isn't all that uncommon in the bond world.

You don't know how that debt was structured and they even spell out how much of the debt is still on the books year to year on the balance sheet. It even states how much in interest they are paying annually.

I'm not sure where there's any data supporting that Michigan's faking numbers like you are suggesting and I'm also not sure why you want to keep on insisting that this is happening.

Your original point was that you thought the entire model of funding expansions through private funds was bogus - and while I agree that some schools do fall behind and end up eventually getting bailed out by the school, there's nothing to suggest that the bailout rate is anywhere close to 100%

 

[upstater]

Maybe the bond payments were simply not due for the few years of issue? This isn't all that uncommon in the bond world.

You don't know how that debt was structured and they even spell out how much of the debt is still on the books year to year on the balance sheet. It even states how much in interest they are paying annually.

I'm not sure where there's any data supporting that Michigan's faking numbers like you are suggesting and I'm also not sure why you want to keep on insisting that this is happening.

Because it happens a lot. Some of the private money raised for building gets dumped into donations and they still bond things out. Look at T. Boone Pickens at Oklahoma State and how that was handled. Yes, he gave the school all that money, but they bonded out the entire amount and more, to the tune of $250m, that the school is on the hook for. Pickens, meanwhile, took the money he gave them and put it into escrow in one of his hedge funds. And he is slowly doling it out to them in the form of donations that they are putting into their AD budget as revenue. It's great that he gave them all that money. But when you look at their AD budget, it includes the Pickens money. But the debt that came as a result of the Pickens money is NOT in the budget.

Again, I've seen way too much of this, people gilding PR releases, to not be suspicious. Read the Texas article. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Michigan numbers (broken down as they are into principal and interest) are not pro-rated using the %s of the actual debt serviced. I don't know if that's true. There is absolutely no law out there that would force Michigan to report things one way or another. Heck, the Mich. AD doesn't even have to give the school a single dime. It's great they are paying off $10m-11m.

All I wondered--and Pudge has background in this--is if that amount could service such a big bond.

 

[upstater]

This is the perception against UConn with respect to the Big 12, but there are counterarguments to this. A lot of people seem to assume that BYU is geographically friendly for the Big 12, but it's actually as much of a geographic outlier for the Big 12 as West Virginia (only going west instead of east). A Big 12 expansion with both Cincinnati and UConn (in conjunction with WVU) would provide a more geographically compact eastern wing of the league compared to any combo with BYU. I'm not saying that's a slam dunk argument (as BYU's perceived football value may trump everything in the same manner that WVU did as a favorite of TV executives), but I also don't think geography in and of itself is a dealbreaker since WVU is already there. UConn's surrogates in the media and PR circles need to get the message out where the general public at least comes away thinking, "UConn in an expanded Big 12 actually isn't that bad geographically."

I would hope UConn would do everything to get into the B12 (as horrible as that sounds). I'm just giving my perception. it seems non-sensical to me.

 

[zls44]

UConn's surrogates in the media and PR circles

The problem is UConn:
1. Doesn't have any.
2. Doesn't try to get any.


I can give a long laundry list of examples if you'd like, but you can start with the total lack of any coverage of the football team reporting to campus. The main beat writer has spent the entire day discussing civil rights.

 

[whaler11]

The problem is UConn:
1. Doesn't have any.
2. Doesn't try to get any.


I can give a long laundry list of examples if you'd like, but you can start with the total lack of any coverage of the football team reporting to campus. The main beat writer has spent the entire day discussing civil rights.

Well when Syracuse embeds a sleeper cell....

 

[Dooley]

Cincinnati is creating positive buzz. I would love to get an article written about the funding UConn will get to make Rentschler Field scoreboard improvements. I know it's not the same as expansion, but at least it's a start.

Now that Nippert = Rentschler Field in capacity, they have a big advantage since they are "old". FranktheTank made mention in his defense of RU for a B1G invite that old matters. A 40K stadium that is old > a 40K stadium that is new and built on an airstrip.

UConn needs to decide whether or not expand the Rent or save their pennies to construct something on campus in the 2020s. Unfortunately for us, the 2020s won't help us in the 2013s.

 

[whaler11]

'Old' might matter but Cincinnati probably is headed towards being the best program outside the Big 5. The shadow that OSU casts in Ohio is their problem. They can never compete with that gorilla.

 

[jostar1]

1. MHr3‏@MHr326 Jun
2. Also who should Cincy be thanking for their stadium remodel? WVU. More specifically Oliver Luck and Whit Babcock

• 1. lgm‏@letsgomtnrs26 Jun
  2. @MH3 Why Ollie??
  1. MH3‏@MH326 Jun
  2. @letsgomtnrs He's the one that got the B12 to give you guys an improvement plan for membership. Biggest item? stadium renovation
  1. Ryan James‏@SenatorRJames26 Jun
  2. “@MHr3: He's the one that got the B12 to give you guys an improvement plan for membership. Biggest item? stadium renovation” -how do u no?
  • • MHr3‏@MH326 Jun
  1. @SenatorRJames He did. He worked very closely with Whit on that. I hope it works out. We need a close conference mate.

 

[cardsfan123]

This is the perception against UConn with respect to the Big 12, but there are counterarguments to this. A lot of people seem to assume that BYU is geographically friendly for the Big 12, but it's actually as much of a geographic outlier for the Big 12 as West Virginia (only going west instead of east). A Big 12 expansion with both Cincinnati and UConn (in conjunction with WVU) would provide a more geographically compact eastern wing of the league compared to any combo with BYU. I'm not saying that's a slam dunk argument (as BYU's perceived football value may trump everything in the same manner that WVU did as a favorite of TV executives), but I also don't think geography in and of itself is a dealbreaker since WVU is already there. UConn's surrogates in the media and PR circles need to get the message out where the general public at least comes away thinking, "UConn in an expanded Big 12 actually isn't that bad geographically."

There's also the perception that BYU has a much stronger commitment to football than UConn which is proven by on the field results. The Big 12 in reality doesn't give a rat's ass about what's in WVU's best interests, and they certainly aren't interested in adding a northeastern school with mediocre football to help slightly with WVU's travel at the expense of literally everyone else. Do you think schools in Kansas and Iowa and Texas and Oklahoma want to travel to Connecticut?

Adding UConn does nothing for a Texas based conference. It's Big 10 or bust for you guys.

 

[whaler11]

There's also the perception that BYU has a much stronger commitment to football than UConn which is proven by on the field results. The Big 12 in reality doesn't give a rat's ass about what's in WVU's best interests, and they certainly aren't interested in adding a northeastern school with mediocre football to help slightly with WVU's travel at the expense of literally everyone else. Do you think schools in Kansas and Iowa and Texas and Oklahoma want to travel to Connecticut?

Adding UConn does nothing for a Texas based conference. It's Big 10 or bust for you guys.

Well that's an Illinois fan you are commenting to. BYU might work for the Big 12 but Cincinnati and UConn might work too

 

[WestCoastHusky]

There's also the perception that BYU has a much stronger commitment to football than UConn which is proven by on the field results. The Big 12 in reality doesn't give a rat's ass about what's in WVU's best interests, and they certainly aren't interested in adding a northeastern school with mediocre football to help slightly with WVU's travel at the expense of literally everyone else. Do you think schools in Kansas and Iowa and Texas and Oklahoma want to travel to Connecticut?

Adding UConn does nothing for a Texas based conference. It's Big 10 or bust for you guys.

You never know. B12 could be desperate like the ACC. After all, they added a school with 3rd grade academics and a mediocre football program. It is all about at the right place at the right time.

 

[WestHartHusk]

There's also the perception that BYU has a much stronger commitment to football than UConn which is proven by on the field results. The Big 12 in reality doesn't give a rat's ass about what's in WVU's best interests, and they certainly aren't interested in adding a northeastern school with mediocre football to help slightly with WVU's travel at the expense of literally everyone else. Do you think schools in Kansas and Iowa and Texas and Oklahoma want to travel to Connecticut?

Adding UConn does nothing for a Texas based conference. It's Big 10 or bust for you guys.

Not to ruin your post with facts, but both Kansas and Texas have already travelled to CT so I'm not sure it's such a huge deal.

 

[upstater]

Well that's an Illinois fan you are commenting to. BYU might work for the Big 12 but Cincinnati and UConn might work too

Well, that's a bigtime troll you're commenting to, as he's proven over and over again.

 

[cardsfan123]

You never know. B12 could be desperate like the ACC. After all, they added a school with 3rd grade academics and a mediocre football program. It is all about at the right place at the right time.

If Louisville football is "mediocre" what is Connecticut football? Abysmal? Comical? Irrelevant? At the very least when our coaches cut and run they go to respectable programs like Michigan State, Oklahoma, and the Atlanta Falcons. Your coaches leaves you for programs like Maryland.

Two straight 5-7 seasons would result in the department cleaning house here, but it's just enough to get an extension at UConn. You guys keep touting your academics as if they mean anything in the grand scheme of realignment, yet you're too stupid to realize your head football coach is scamming your AD for every penny it's worth. But then again, that's why you're in the AAC.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

If Louisville football is "mediocre" what is Connecticut football? Abysmal? Comical? Irrelevant? At the very least when our coaches cut and run they go to respectable programs like Michigan State, Oklahoma, and the Atlanta Falcons. Your coaches leaves you for programs like Maryland.

Two straight 5-7 seasons would result in the department cleaning house here, but it's just enough to get an extension at UConn. You guys keep touting your academics as if they mean anything in the grand scheme of realignment, yet you're too stupid to realize your head football coach is scamming your AD for every penny it's worth. But then again, that's why you're in the AAC.

As bad is our football program according to you, we are .500 against the "mighty" UL. We also have more players in the NFL than UL despite having a way shorter history. What does that say about UL football?

If I am an UL fan, I would pucker up to FSU AD's ass and kiss it every night. Without FSU, you would be nowhere near the ACC. Timing was right for UL so congrats. In the grand scheme of things, UL is merely an ugly duckling in the ACC.

 

[upstater]

If Louisville football is "mediocre" what is Connecticut football?

A school that beat Ville in its best year and is 4-4 against Ville in the BE.

Two straight 5-7 seasons would result in the department cleaning house here, but it's just enough to get an extension at UConn.

No one got an extension at UConn. Kragthorpe got 3 years. That's what Pasqualoni will get.

You guys keep touting your academics as if they mean anything in the grand scheme of realignment, yet you're too stupid to realize your head football coach is scamming your AD for every penny it's worth. But then again, that's why you're in the AAC.

And Kragthorpe was great. What a loony hypocrite you are.

 

[TRest]

If Louisville football is "mediocre" what is Connecticut football? Abysmal? Comical? Irrelevant? At the very least when our coaches cut and run they go to respectable programs like Michigan State, Oklahoma, and the Atlanta Falcons. Your coaches leaves you for programs like Maryland.

Two straight 5-7 seasons would result in the department cleaning house here, but it's just enough to get an extension at UConn. You guys keep touting your academics as if they mean anything in the grand scheme of realignment, yet you're too stupid to realize your head football coach is scamming your AD for every penny it's worth. But then again, that's why you're in the AAC.

"But it never panned out. With star quarterback Brian Brohm and a talented cast of skill position players returning, Louisville went from the preseason top 10 to 6-6 as the team's defense collapsed. That was followed by seasons of 5-7 and 4-8, as the Cardinals steadily leaked talent and became less competitive in the Big East.
With Louisville expanding Papa John's Cardinal Stadium from 42,000 to more than 60,000 seats and disgruntled fans staying away in droves this season, going forward with Kragthorpe was a no-win proposition. A crowd of only 23,422 attended the finale Friday against Rutgers, many of them using tickets that had been given away by unhappy season-ticket holders."

That's some weak sauce. We will make Bridgewater our bitch again this year.


Not to mention your historic program played its home games in a minor league baseball park until Pizza Pizza stadium was built.

 

[Doggie Style]

If Louisville football is "mediocre" what is Connecticut football? Abysmal? Comical? Irrelevant? At the very least when our coaches cut and run they go to respectable programs like Michigan State, Oklahoma, and the Atlanta Falcons. Your coaches leaves you for programs like Maryland.

Two straight 5-7 seasons would result in the department cleaning house here, but it's just enough to get an extension at UConn. You guys keep touting your academics as if they mean anything in the grand scheme of realignment, yet you're too stupid to realize your head football coach is scamming your AD for every penny it's worth. But then again, that's why you're in the AAC.

Yup, but we still whipped your butt last year though didn't we??