Better Job: St Johns or UC? | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Better Job: St Johns or UC?

Better Job?

  • Queen City

    Votes: 70 53.4%

  • Queens

    Votes: 61 46.6%
  • Total voters
    131
Red Storm has a crappy campus and basketball facilities compared to Cincy, right? The only thing going for them is MSG. At this moment it’s Cincy.
 
Nowadays you would need to make 5mm a year to find a decent place to live in Manhattan. Otherwise coach would have to take the train from Queens.
 
superjohn said:
You lost credibility when you said St. John's is as relevant to kids as the Bonnie's and Duquesne. You should have thrown Holy Cross and the San Fran Dons in as well.
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Go Bona!
 
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Ewekon said:
I just do not understand how it can be both fifth and third. Is it the weird chili spaghetti?
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It's the name of a bank located on the corner of Fifth and Third in DT Cincinnati.
 
St. John's has become an Iona.

The Gaels go to the dance (14 X)...but have only won one game there in their history.

The Johnnies have won just one tournament game in the last 19 years...and that one was 19 years ago.

St. John's, since 2000, is not the program that it once was.
 
If you can't see how schools with better and more complete athletic departments (aka big schools) have more success, then I don't know what to tell you. Villanova is not comparable to Denver in hockey, even. St Johns ranks up there in all time wins. But so does Pennsylvania and Princeton.

College sports has been evolving. Whoever put more money into sports was and is more likely to win.
 
The right coach could come in and make either program a powerhouse. Let's not forget that 3 of the last 6 national champions have come from the AAC or Big East!

BUT if I were offered both gigs, I would take the Cincy job just based on the trajectories of the conferences. Regardless of where I landed, I'd be looking to use the job to move up, not make a long term home.
 
KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

What I’ve done here is pretty simple. I’ve taken an average of each team’s adjusted efficiency margin since the 1998 season, giving more weight to more recent seasons while adding a dash of current conference affiliation. The objective is to produce a ranking of programs based on the success we would expect them to have over the next decade or so assuming a typical coach for that program. It should also match what most coaches generally think about when considering whether to pursue a particular job.

In terms of quantity, there have been a decent number of coaching vacancies with a total of 47 to date, and a few more to come either through the filling of existing openings or the occasional late offseason job actions that inevitably occur. But the quality has been lacking to some degree. Here are the top 10 openings in terms of program ranking:
  1. Cincinnati (20th)
  2. UCLA (29th)
  3. Alabama (47th)
  4. Vanderbilt (48th)
  5. Arkansas (49th)
  6. BYU (56th)
  7. Texas A&M (57th)
  8. Temple (61st)
  9. Virginia Tech (64th)
  10. California (69th)
 
Drew said:
KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

What I’ve done here is pretty simple. I’ve taken an average of each team’s adjusted efficiency margin since the 1998 season, giving more weight to more recent seasons while adding a dash of current conference affiliation. The objective is to produce a ranking of programs based on the success we would expect them to have over the next decade or so assuming a typical coach for that program. It should also match what most coaches generally think about when considering whether to pursue a particular job.

In terms of quantity, there have been a decent number of coaching vacancies with a total of 47 to date, and a few more to come either through the filling of existing openings or the occasional late offseason job actions that inevitably occur. But the quality has been lacking to some degree. Here are the top 10 openings in terms of program ranking:
  1. Cincinnati (20th)
  2. UCLA (29th)
  3. Alabama (47th)
  4. Vanderbilt (48th)
  5. Arkansas (49th)
  6. BYU (56th)
  7. Texas A&M (57th)
  8. Temple (61st)
  9. Virginia Tech (64th)
  10. California (69th)
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I think UConn’s proximity to St Johns (and the age of many a Boneyard poster...) blinds some to the relavtive strength of the UC brand
 
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Drew said:
KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

What I’ve done here is pretty simple. I’ve taken an average of each team’s adjusted efficiency margin since the 1998 season, giving more weight to more recent seasons while adding a dash of current conference affiliation. The objective is to produce a ranking of programs based on the success we would expect them to have over the next decade or so assuming a typical coach for that program. It should also match what most coaches generally think about when considering whether to pursue a particular job.

In terms of quantity, there have been a decent number of coaching vacancies with a total of 47 to date, and a few more to come either through the filling of existing openings or the occasional late offseason job actions that inevitably occur. But the quality has been lacking to some degree. Here are the top 10 openings in terms of program ranking:
  1. Cincinnati (20th)
  2. UCLA (29th)
  3. Alabama (47th)
  4. Vanderbilt (48th)
  5. Arkansas (49th)
  6. BYU (56th)
  7. Texas A&M (57th)
  8. Temple (61st)
  9. Virginia Tech (64th)
  10. California (69th)
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Case closed. Cincinnati is the best job on the market, and the extra benefit is you get to keep a lot more of the $$$ you make compared to living anywhere in the TriStateTaxZone.
 
superjohn said:
You lost credibility when you said St. John's is as relevant to kids as the Bonnie's and Duquesne. You should have thrown Holy Cross and the San Fran Dons in as well.
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Except, they're not in the A-10.
 
St. Johns is the better job. Better conference, better history, MSG, New York, etc..

Get a good coach and they will perform. Simple as that.
 
SubInATub said:
St. Johns is the better job. Better conference, better history, MSG, New York, etc..

Get a good coach and they will perform. Simple as that.
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Not 1 single high school recruit was alive the last time St Johns won a tournament game. Cincinnati is an established mid west program who can pull in recruits. NYC kids get snagged by UConn and the rest of the east coast Blue Bloods. None of them are even thinking about going to St Johns lmao
 
I feel like St. Johns could succeed with the right coach, but, as has been alluded to on this board, that hasn't happened over the last 20 years. Although, I watched St. Johns a few times this year and they definitely had some talent and athletes. Haven't paid attention to who is leaving/returning, but if they make the right hire, it may not be as big of a rebuild as one would think. I would still take the Cincy job over it tho.
 
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aburks41 said:
Not 1 single high school recruit was alive the last time St Johns won a tournament game. Cincinnati is an established mid west program who can pull in recruits. NYC kids get snagged by UConn and the rest of the east coast Blue Bloods. None of them are even thinking about going to St Johns lmao
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LMAO !! omg! Looking at recruiting since Mullin has been there, St Johns really doesn't get any recruits!

Just get a better coach. Simple as that.

Recruiting Rankings
2018: SJU 46, Cincy 65
2017: SJU 48, Cincy 58
2016: SJU 24, Cincy 63
2015: SJU 26, Cincy 53
 
brasssbonanzaa said:
The ceiling at SJU is higher. It's a more desirable location to recruit, the media attention there is huge if you win, and you aren't overshadowed by other in-state schools.
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Nonsense. St Johns hasn’t been a relevant job since the 1990s. And while you aren’t overshadowed by other schools you will always be an afterthought behind the Knicks, Nets, Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets, Redbulls. You are competing with other comparable programs nearby too if they get their acts together. Seton Hall. Fordham (ok A10 but if they start winning they’ll be the local darlings)

NYC might have been the center of college basketball in 1957 but the center has long ago moved to the large state schools.

Cincinatti is in an area where college basketball is actually appreciated and I know it’s hard to believe for Gotham centric folks from this area, but kids play ball in Cincinatti too. Decent sized city with a fair amount of activity going on.

St Johns ceased being relevant about 25 years ago. It isn’t coming back. Cinci might have a ceiling but so do the Johnnies
 
What did Mullin make last year vs I think Cronin made $2M? The pay is indicative of what's the better job.
And I'd think for a young coach St John's might afford more upside (do well get a better job) whereas Cincy would provide more stability, likelihood of very good but maybe not Nat'l C contender etc..
Also since for some it is such a big difference of living in Cincy vs New York I'm not sure that the comparison matters a lot.
It is close enough that certainly Cronin wouldn't have left Cincy for St John's and Mullin or Carnesecca aren't likely successors to Mick ;)
 
Dogdeacon said:
What did Mullin make last year vs I think Cronin made $2M? The pay is indicative of what's the better job.
And I'd think for a young coach St John's might afford more upside (do well get a better job) whereas Cincy would provide more stability, likelihood of very good but maybe not Nat'l C contender etc..
Also since for some it is such a big difference of living in Cincy vs New York I'm not sure that the comparison matters a lot.
It is close enough that certainly Cronin wouldn't have left Cincy for St John's and Mullin or Carnesecca aren't likely successors to Mick ;)
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Mullin made over 2 mil. per year.
 
freescooter said:
Nonsense. St Johns hasn’t been a relevant job since the 1990s. And while you aren’t overshadowed by other schools you will always be an afterthought behind the Knicks, Nets, Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets, Redbulls. You are competing with other comparable programs nearby too if they get their acts together. Seton Hall. Fordham (ok A10 but if they start winning they’ll be the local darlings)
NYC might have been the center of college basketball in 1957 but the center has long ago moved to the large state schools.
Cincinatti is in an area where college basketball is actually appreciated and I know it’s hard to believe for Gotham centric folks from this area, but kids play ball in Cincinatti too. Decent sized city with a fair amount of activity going on.
St Johns ceased being relevant about 25 years ago. It isn’t coming back. Cinci might have a ceiling but so do the Johnnies
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I think some of that is right and harkens back to the apocryphal story of Calhoun being told by Bobby Knight to get a job at a place that starts with "University of _________".
I wonder in this debate of jobs where the BCU job* fits in. They are in THE conference, but a dramatic afterthought. The conference barely acknowledges that BC plays basketball or football in it. Boston produces players like anywhere else, but they don't choose BC. College athletics is a humongous 2nd to pro sports in Boston, 3 sports fans I spoke to yesterday didn't even know the national championship was Monday, others too late to watch. And for BCU the conference affiliation is actually a negative b/c any player that wants to be relevant in the ACC knows that BC is the least likely place for that to happen. So even if we can't decide whether Cincy or St John's is a better job, we can eliminate conference affiliation as a criteria because we conclude that Boston College University is absolutely a worse job than either.

*they are bringing back their coach, Jim Christian. Partially out of recognizing they are what they are and couldn't find a better coach and partially out of not recognizing that & doing bs things to try and improve. the Globe article link inside the link below from the BC interuption fan site just discusses locker rooms, conditioning and a recruiting budget, a small mention of two of the three elephants in the room: (1) low attendance fan apathy (no indication of how they'll address, (2) mention of travel concerns, again no solutions offered (why isn't this a problem for Cuse?) and (3) no mention of their unsolvable fish out of water status as an irrelevant ACC team.
Martin Jarmond Expands on Jim Christian Decision in Boston Globe
 
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Actually the Johnnies and the Besgles have some things in common in terms of fan base. Both have become far less relevant as their “hometowns” have become less Catholic. When I grew up in Boston back in the day rooting for the Eagles was a matter of Faith. Every parish had alumni, and students. Now they’ve become a national school and reportedly have an unofficial limit in the number of kids from both The Boston area and any individual Massachusetts town or city. The folks who were BC supporters then are dying off or moving to Florida. The folks who graduate from BC live in Charlotte or Nutley NJ or Chicago and aren’t going to games. And they’ve lost their local connection

It was similar for the Johnnies in Queens. Loacal kids went to school there and brought St Johns fever to the neighborhoods. And while they are not the national school BC is, The folks going to Our Lady of perpetual Resonsibility on Queens Boulevard today are more likely to be from the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico or somewhere and their kids will go to a CCNY or a SUNY or somewhere, not St Johns. The folks who supported the Johnnies now live in Jersey or Fairfield County or Miami or StvRose Cemetary now.
 
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Dogdeacon said:
I think some of that is right and harkens back to the apocryphal story of Calhoun being told by Bobby Knight to get a job at a place that starts with "University of _________".
I wonder in this debate of jobs where the BCU job* fits in. They are in THE conference, but a dramatic afterthought. The conference barely acknowledges that BC plays basketball or football in it. Boston produces players like anywhere else, but they don't choose BC. College athletics is a humongous 2nd to pro sports in Boston, 3 sports fans I spoke to yesterday didn't even know the national championship was Monday, others too late to watch. And for BCU the conference affiliation is actually a negative b/c any player that wants to be relevant in the ACC knows that BC is the least likely place for that to happen. So even if we can't decide whether Cincy or St John's is a better job, we can eliminate conference affiliation as a criteria because we conclude that Boston College University is absolutely a worse job than either.

*they are bringing back their coach, Jim Christian. Partially out of recognizing they are what they are and couldn't find a better coach and partially out of not recognizing that & doing bs things to try and improve. the Globe article link inside the link below from the BC interuption fan site just discusses locker rooms, conditioning and a recruiting budget, a small mention of two of the three elephants in the room: (1) low attendance fan apathy (no indication of how they'll address, (2) mention of travel concerns, again no solutions offered (why isn't this a problem for Cuse?) and (3) no mention of their unsolvable fish out of water status as an irrelevant ACC team.
Martin Jarmond Expands on Jim Christian Decision in Boston Globe
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The BC thing will always kill me - not ONLY that they basically destroyed the greatest thing ever created in college basketball, but when they got to the ACC and loaded up their pockets - that they did nothing. They're just existing, collecting checks.
 
freescooter said:
Actually the Johnnies and the Besgles have some things in common in terms of fan base. Both have become far less relevant as their “hometowns” have become less Catholic. When I grew up in Boston back in the day rooting for the Eagles was a matter of Faith. Every parish had alumni, and students. Now they’ve become a national school and reportedly have an unofficial limit in the number of kids from both The Boston area and any individual Massachusetts town or city. The folks who were BC supporters then are dying off or moving to Florida. The folks who graduate from BC live in Charlotte or Nutley NJ or Chicago and aren’t going to games. And they’ve lost their local connection

It was similar for the Johnnies in Queens. Loacal kids went to school there and brought St Johns fever to the neighborhoods. And while they are not the national school BC is, The folks going to Our Lady of perpetual Resonsibility on Queens Boulevard today are more likely to be from the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico or somewhere and their kids will go to a CCNY or a SUNY or somewhere, not St Johns. The folks who supported the Johnnies now live in Jersey or Fairfield County or Miami or StvRose Cemetary now.
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Again I'd say partially correct in that back then Boston was smaller & though more Catholic I don't think that affiliation prompted people to be fans of BC. Moreso I think the unprecedented success of pro sports teams over the last 20 years has made what was already a pro sports town even more predominately professional sports and college slides evermore into background. Namely the Pats, Celtics & Bruins have all been consistently good and that sucks 95% of oxygen during college hoop season.
 
SubInATub said:
LMAO !! omg! Looking at recruiting since Mullin has been there, St Johns really doesn't get any recruits!

Just get a better coach. Simple as that.

Recruiting Rankings
2018: SJU 46, Cincy 65
2017: SJU 48, Cincy 58
2016: SJU 24, Cincy 63
2015: SJU 26, Cincy 53
Expand ...

Unfortunately, they only count wins.
 
Towney007 said:
The BC thing will always kill me - not ONLY that they basically destroyed the greatest thing ever created in college basketball, but when they got to the ACC and loaded up their pockets - that they did nothing. They're just existing, collecting checks.
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The New York Jets of college sports
 
Towney007 said:
The BC thing will always kill me - not ONLY that they basically destroyed the greatest thing ever created in college basketball, but when they got to the ACC and loaded up their pockets - that they did nothing. They're just existing, collecting checks.
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1000% yes.
One might think this puts us in the world of rooting for BCU to do better to justify how badly they screwed UConn and everyone. Instead I Root for their forever banishment to purgatory for a mortal sin.
 
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