Better Job: St Johns or UC?

[UConnNick]

Anybody that thinks St. John's is a better job than Cincy is living in the past, just like the "back to the 'new' Big Leasters" on this forum.

The Bearcats have better facilities, a better TV deal, state support, and a comparatively way better program over the past 20 years or more. St. John's has a lousy campus, tiny 1960's era on campus HS gym, can't attract top level talent, and being on FOX sports has been a ratings disaster. The Ron Artest era was their last high point, about 20 years ago. Current recruits weren't even born yet. Nobody but die hard Redmen fans can even remember the true glory days under Carnesecca.

 

[superjohn]

You'd think being in NYC would be a huge advantage, but then again, you'd think being in Chicago would be the same for DePaul. Times have changed. UCLA isn't exactly setting the world on fire, despite being in LA. St. John's is as relevant to an 18 year old today, as ancient powers St. Bonaventure, or Duquesne were 30 years ago, when they were 15 years into their declines. If it didn't happen within the last 5 years, it's as ancient as CCNY to high school kids. Walter Berry means about as much as to an 18 year old as Frank Selvy does.

You lost credibility when you said St. John's is as relevant to kids as the Bonnie's and Duquesne. You should have thrown Holy Cross and the San Fran Dons in as well.

 

[superjohn]

For the record. St. John's averaged 16,497 fans in their five MSG games this year (including the 10k attended Holiday Festival)... That's pretty solid attendance at the mecca

This idea that they can't attract fans is nonsense, you attract fans anywhere in the country if you win. To think NYC won't support a good Johnnie's team is asinine.

 

[billybud]

Having local support is different from being nationally relevant...

 

[A10 fan]

You lost credibility when you said St. John's is as relevant to kids as the Bonnie's and Duquesne. You should have thrown Holy Cross and the San Fran Dons in as well.

Reading comprehension will get you far. I said as those programs were 30 years ago, not now. 30 years ago those programs were 15 or so years removed from being among the powers in eastern basketball. It meant nothing to recruits then, and Louie means nothing to recruits now. I doubt that Houston is now rolling because of what Guy Lewis did, and for what it's worth, Houston in the 80s, was quite a bit better than St. John's was in the same era.
Holy Cross, and San Fran fit nicely into my point, as does LaSalle. Hell, I could have added Pitt, and Syracuse football, and La. Tech women's hoops to the list of has been programs that no one cares about anymore. The point being, that kids care about who's on top now, not who was on top 15, 30, 50 years ago. Wichita St., and Xavier ring bells with the kids, St. John's and DePaul excite the over 50 crowd. Unfortunately, the over 50 crowd doesn't have any eligibility left.

 

[uconnyankee]

The ceiling at SJU is higher. It's a more desirable location to recruit, the media attention there is huge if you win, and you aren't overshadowed by other in-state schools.

Meh... St John's upside died with old Big East. Could someone come in and resurrect? Sure, but it's a big hill to climb.

 

[uconnyankee]

Reading comprehension will get you far. I said as those programs were 30 years ago, not now. 30 years ago those programs were 15 or so years removed from being among the powers in eastern basketball. It meant nothing to recruits then, and Louie means nothing to recruits now. I doubt that Houston is now rolling because of what Guy Lewis did, and for what it's worth, Houston in the 80s, was quite a bit better than St. John's was in the same era.
Holy Cross, and San Fran fit nicely into my point, as does LaSalle. Hell, I could have added Pitt, and Syracuse football, and La. Tech women's hoops to the list of has been programs that no one cares about anymore. The point being, that kids care about who's on top now, not who was on top 15, 30, 50 years ago. Wichita St., and Xavier ring bells with the kids, St. John's and DePaul excite the over 50 crowd. Unfortunately, the over 50 crowd doesn't have any eligibility left.

Whelp.... Is UConn on your list?

 

[uconnyankee]

No as in, they shouldn't use Bob Higgins success as the standard to judge their next coach by.

Are you talking about Jonathan Higgins from Magnum PI?

 

[superjohn]

Reading comprehension will get you far. I said as those programs were 30 years ago, not now. 30 years ago those programs were 15 or so years removed from being among the powers in eastern basketball. It meant nothing to recruits then, and Louie means nothing to recruits now. I doubt that Houston is now rolling because of what Guy Lewis did, and for what it's worth, Houston in the 80s, was quite a bit better than St. John's was in the same era.
Holy Cross, and San Fran fit nicely into my point, as does LaSalle. Hell, I could have added Pitt, and Syracuse football, and La. Tech women's hoops to the list of has been programs that no one cares about anymore. The point being, that kids care about who's on top now, not who was on top 15, 30, 50 years ago. Wichita St., and Xavier ring bells with the kids, St. John's and DePaul excite the over 50 crowd. Unfortunately, the over 50 crowd doesn't have any eligibility left.

Your point is a bit nonsensical though. Bonnies and Duquesne have 11 all-time tournament appearances between them, they are in Buffalo and Pittsburgh and play in the A-10. St. John's has 30 all-time tournament appearances they're in NYC, play in the Big East, and have the Garden. Those other programs have to luck into finding 2 and 3 star diamond in the rough players, St. John's still attracts 4 stars and occasionally 5 stars. Wichita St. is good because they have one of the best coaches in the country, if he leaves you got a program in the middle of nowhere Kansas that is only famous for 2 in the goo 1 in the...

Also, since you're such a creature of the moment you should have included UConn.

 

[Ewekon]

....The St Johns MSG is not the MSG we know and love.

It empty. It’s like playing in a morgue.

Fifth Third Arena, on the other hand, is brand new, on campus and packed. Great environment.

I just do not understand how it can be both fifth and third. Is it the weird chili spaghetti?

 

[jibsey]

Red Storm has a crappy campus and basketball facilities compared to Cincy, right? The only thing going for them is MSG. At this moment it’s Cincy.

 

[don356]

Nowadays you would need to make 5mm a year to find a decent place to live in Manhattan. Otherwise coach would have to take the train from Queens.

 

[Lynyrd]

Lou Carnesecca ain’t walking through that door anytime soon ...

 

[Lynyrd]

You lost credibility when you said St. John's is as relevant to kids as the Bonnie's and Duquesne. You should have thrown Holy Cross and the San Fran Dons in as well.

Go Bona!

 

[strivefor5]

I honestly think Pitino could get things rolling at St Johns and I think that would be fun to see

 

[Scrutineer]

I honestly think Pitino could get things rolling at St Johns and I think that would be fun to see

But first, the priests would have to get the Pope to give Pitino 10 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Marys and a clean slate to start his career there.

 

[UConnNick]

I just do not understand how it can be both fifth and third. Is it the weird chili spaghetti?

It's the name of a bank located on the corner of Fifth and Third in DT Cincinnati.

 

[billybud]

St. John's has become an Iona.

The Gaels go to the dance (14 X)...but have only won one game there in their history.

The Johnnies have won just one tournament game in the last 19 years...and that one was 19 years ago.

St. John's, since 2000, is not the program that it once was.

 

[Adios]

If you can't see how schools with better and more complete athletic departments (aka big schools) have more success, then I don't know what to tell you. Villanova is not comparable to Denver in hockey, even. St Johns ranks up there in all time wins. But so does Pennsylvania and Princeton.

College sports has been evolving. Whoever put more money into sports was and is more likely to win.

 

[Purple Stein]

The right coach could come in and make either program a powerhouse. Let's not forget that 3 of the last 6 national champions have come from the AAC or Big East!

BUT if I were offered both gigs, I would take the Cincy job just based on the trajectories of the conferences. Regardless of where I landed, I'd be looking to use the job to move up, not make a long term home.

 

[Drew]

KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

What I’ve done here is pretty simple. I’ve taken an average of each team’s adjusted efficiency margin since the 1998 season, giving more weight to more recent seasons while adding a dash of current conference affiliation. The objective is to produce a ranking of programs based on the success we would expect them to have over the next decade or so assuming a typical coach for that program. It should also match what most coaches generally think about when considering whether to pursue a particular job.

In terms of quantity, there have been a decent number of coaching vacancies with a total of 47 to date, and a few more to come either through the filling of existing openings or the occasional late offseason job actions that inevitably occur. But the quality has been lacking to some degree. Here are the top 10 openings in terms of program ranking:

1. Cincinnati (20th)
2. UCLA (29th)
3. Alabama (47th)
4. Vanderbilt (48th)
5. Arkansas (49th)
6. BYU (56th)
7. Texas A&M (57th)
8. Temple (61st)
9. Virginia Tech (64th)
10. California (69th)

 

[Guapo]

KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

What I’ve done here is pretty simple. I’ve taken an average of each team’s adjusted efficiency margin since the 1998 season, giving more weight to more recent seasons while adding a dash of current conference affiliation. The objective is to produce a ranking of programs based on the success we would expect them to have over the next decade or so assuming a typical coach for that program. It should also match what most coaches generally think about when considering whether to pursue a particular job.

In terms of quantity, there have been a decent number of coaching vacancies with a total of 47 to date, and a few more to come either through the filling of existing openings or the occasional late offseason job actions that inevitably occur. But the quality has been lacking to some degree. Here are the top 10 openings in terms of program ranking:

1. Cincinnati (20th)
2. UCLA (29th)
3. Alabama (47th)
4. Vanderbilt (48th)
5. Arkansas (49th)
6. BYU (56th)
7. Texas A&M (57th)
8. Temple (61st)
9. Virginia Tech (64th)
10. California (69th)

I think UConn’s proximity to St Johns (and the age of many a Boneyard poster...) blinds some to the relavtive strength of the UC brand

 

[UConnNick]

KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

What I’ve done here is pretty simple. I’ve taken an average of each team’s adjusted efficiency margin since the 1998 season, giving more weight to more recent seasons while adding a dash of current conference affiliation. The objective is to produce a ranking of programs based on the success we would expect them to have over the next decade or so assuming a typical coach for that program. It should also match what most coaches generally think about when considering whether to pursue a particular job.

In terms of quantity, there have been a decent number of coaching vacancies with a total of 47 to date, and a few more to come either through the filling of existing openings or the occasional late offseason job actions that inevitably occur. But the quality has been lacking to some degree. Here are the top 10 openings in terms of program ranking:

1. Cincinnati (20th)
2. UCLA (29th)
3. Alabama (47th)
4. Vanderbilt (48th)
5. Arkansas (49th)
6. BYU (56th)
7. Texas A&M (57th)
8. Temple (61st)
9. Virginia Tech (64th)
10. California (69th)

Case closed. Cincinnati is the best job on the market, and the extra benefit is you get to keep a lot more of the $$$ you make compared to living anywhere in the TriStateTaxZone.

 

[auror]

KenPom just published this article on The Athletic 2 hours ago. Criteria are below. SJU isn’t even in the top 10. Cincinnati is 1.

KenPom: Which openings are the best on the coaching...

UConn 30th apparently. Ooooof.

This doesn't include things like operating budget, facilities, or recruiting areas, though, except insofar as those things helped you to have previously won.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

You lost credibility when you said St. John's is as relevant to kids as the Bonnie's and Duquesne. You should have thrown Holy Cross and the San Fran Dons in as well.

Except, they're not in the A-10.